Can you be a Panentheist and a Christian?

[darthbarracuda]

I was raised a Christian.

I began to question some of the beliefs of it, like the idea of a "Personal God" and Heaven/Hell and the rituals and customs and whatnot.

After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that I was most like a Panentheist.

However, I'm finding a hard time just letting go of Christianity. I have a small cross that's been hanging in my room for ages, and I took it down only after a lot of contemplation. It was like I was still believing/fearing God, even though I've decided that the Christian idea of God doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

And it's not like I hate Christianity. I think one of the reasons I'm having trouble letting go of it is because it does teach good. It does teach to lead a good life. It's optimistic and full of morals and stuff. But there are some things I don't agree with.

So I was thinking of going the opposite way: Do you think you can be a Panentheist and a Christian? I know that a Panentheist's idea of God is drastically different from a Christians, but honestly do you think you could still go to church and do all the stuff other Christians do even though you have a different idea of the qualities of God?

Not only this, but I want to find a group of people that are like me. One of the pros of being in a religion is that there's a social aspect to it. Being a Panentheist...well...it's kinda boring. Yeah there's sites for PANtheism (which is like a cousin to Panentheism) and some forums but not an actual religion. I guess for it to be a religion you would have to add in all these rituals and traditions and stuff, which I don't believe in. And there's no real holy book or pamphlet. And no interesting history or anything.

A lot of Pan(en)theists are also Neo-Pagans. Although I find the idea interesting and kind of cool, I can't actually see myself being part of a Coven or being a Wiccan or something of the sorts.

[Divine Insight]

You can be anything you want to be.

I know a lot of people who consider themselves to be Catholic Witches, and also Protestant Christian Witches.

In other words they embrace both Christianity and Wicca simultaneously.

I personally find this to be somewhat incompatible, but different people have different ideas of how they view these various religions.

I too was born and raised as Christian. I too have no problem with Jesus or the moral values that he taught. I do have huge problems with him being the "sacrificial lamb" of the God of the Old Testament. I have a lot of problems with the Old Testament. I also personally feel that even according to the New Testament Gospels that even Jesus himself did not agree with many of the teachings of the Old Testament.

I actually identified with Jesus because throughout the whole biblical canon Jesus was the only character who's moral values I could identify with. But like you, I have problems with many of the details, and I also have extreme problems with Jesus being the "sacrificial lamb" of the God of the Old Testament sent to pay for our sins. So I reject that whole idea.

For me, Jesus was most likely a Jewish mystic (a pantheist) which would not be unusual for many Jews of that time period. I believe that he was also very much into Mahayana Buddhism because the moral values that Jesus taught sound like they came straight out of Mahayana Buddhism. Plus this was the most popular form of Buddhism in the days when Jesus supposedly lived.

So I too kept Jesus as an important spiritual sage even when I left Christianity.

do you think you could still go to church and do all the stuff other Christians do even though you have a different idea of the qualities of God?

No, not really. I have no desire of pretending that Jesus is God. And I'm certainly not going to support the idea that Jesus was crucified to pay for my sins.

I'm not going to stand around acting like Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I might respect him as a spiritual sage, but I'm not going to worship him and idolize him as a God.

From my perspective he was just another Buddha. In fact, as far as I'm concerned he taught the very same morality, and most likely got most of his material from Buddhism. He clearly did not agree with the Old Testament teachings. Even the Gospels make this clear.

A lot of Pan(en)theists are also Neo-Pagans. Although I find the idea interesting and kind of cool, I can't actually see myself being part of a Coven or being a Wiccan or something of the sorts.

I never really needed to become part of a social religious group. So that was never a factor for me. I did seek out spiritual religions and philosophies that were compatible with my own personal intuitive ideas of what God should be like.

What I found that works for me is mainly Taoism. Also various forms of Buddhism, but certainly not all forms of Buddhism. One form I like in particular is Tantric Buddhism.

Finally I was introduced to Wicca by a really nice witch. She was actually a physicist by career. I met her though the sciences. It truly blew my mind that this highly intelligent physicist considered herself to be a witch. At first I thought she was some kind of nut case or just pulling my leg. But it turned out that she was quite serious.

She turned me on to some really good books on Solitary Wicca and I so I read them. That's when I started to realize that it has rational merit, at least in many aspects of it. Far too many people focus on the "magic", but that's really not the heart of this spirituality at all. I saw far more value in the shamanic journeying aspects of it. And that's the aspect I began to focus on.

Another thing that gave me a "Green Light" to Wicca, came from a man named Deepak Chopra. He has many videos and books out on spirituality. His ideas stem from Buddhism and the Eastern Mystical view of God. In one of his many lectures he spoke to the issue of the importance of creating or embracing psychic paradigms using archetypes that you personally find attractive. In that lecture he said that it doesn't matter which archetypes you use, but it's spiritually effective to use one. He mentioned many different examples, from the many Eastern Mystical archetypes, to the Abrahamic religions, Greek mythology, and even things like "Wicca" (although he didn't mention Wicca by name, but he eluded to similar paradigms)

I personally found the selection of archetypes associated with Wicca, Witchcraft, Celtic, etc., to be very intuitive and they even called to me on primal level.

I do not belong to a coven. I am a Solitary Witch. My paradigm of "Wicca" is entirely my own design. Although I have used many of the standard traditional archetypal characters.

It works for me.

And part of the reason is precisely because it's "cool" as you say.

It contains very interesting and romantic archetypes. It's is cool. And that's what spirituality should be, IMHO.

Why adopt a paradigm that I don't feel is "cool"? That would be counter-productive.

The more you enjoy your paradigm the better it will serve you. The more real it will become for you, and the more powerful your psychic experiences will be.

So definitely follow what calls to you.

I have no interest in selling you on Wicca in particular. I makes absolutely no difference to me what religion or spiritual traditions you choose to embrace and practice.

But I would recommend that you follow what calls to you. That's probably the single more important factor. Anything less than that and you're taking on something for all the wrong reasons.

If you are looking for a social group though it may be a bit problematic. I've never really become involved with a Wicca group or even a Pagan Group. But I have met a lot of "Wiccans" on-line who seem to have totally different ideas from how I view Wicca. So I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel joining a group that already has a paradigm that is dramatically different from the one I've constructed as a solitary witch.

So when it comes to joining a social group of Wiccans I have nothing to offer other than to maybe start with really loosely defined pagan events. Not an actual coven, but more like a public Wiccan event or even just a pagan event where you might actually meet individuals that you could become more closely associated with as you discover common interests.

[YahDough]

I was raised a Christian.

I began to question some of the beliefs of it, like the idea of a "Personal God" and Heaven/Hell and the rituals and customs and whatnot.

After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that I was most like a Panentheist.

However, I'm finding a hard time just letting go of Christianity. I have a small cross that's been hanging in my room for ages, and I took it down only after a lot of contemplation. It was like I was still believing/fearing God, even though I've decided that the Christian idea of God doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

And it's not like I hate Christianity. I think one of the reasons I'm having trouble letting go of it is because it does teach good. It does teach to lead a good life. It's optimistic and full of morals and stuff. But there are some things I don't agree with.

So I was thinking of going the opposite way: Do you think you can be a Panentheist and a Christian? I know that a Panentheist's idea of God is drastically different from a Christians, but honestly do you think you could still go to church and do all the stuff other Christians do even though you have a different idea of the qualities of God?

Not only this, but I want to find a group of people that are like me. One of the pros of being in a religion is that there's a social aspect to it. Being a Panentheist...well...it's kinda boring. Yeah there's sites for PANtheism (which is like a cousin to Panentheism) and some forums but not an actual religion. I guess for it to be a religion you would have to add in all these rituals and traditions and stuff, which I don't believe in. And there's no real holy book or pamphlet. And no interesting history or anything.

A lot of Pan(en)theists are also Neo-Pagans. Although I find the idea interesting and kind of cool, I can't actually see myself being part of a Coven or being a Wiccan or something of the sorts.

As far as I can see there is no specific doctrine for a Panentheist, just a simple definition of what that word implies.
definition of Panentheist by the Free Online Dictionary:
the belief that the world is part, though not all of God.

By this definition it seems one could be a Christian and a Panentheist in ideology/belief. But Panentheism seems superfluous to Christianity since it just acknowledges a God in creation whereas Christianity explains the dynamics between the God of creation and the creation, as well as the salvation process.

[4gold]

[Replying to post 1 by darthbarracuda]

Certainly you could not be both a panentheist and Christian in the traditional sense of the word. If you are a panentheist, you would have to reject the core proofs of God's existene by Augustine, Aquinas, and Anselm, all of whom say that God must be greater than the world.

Can you be a panentheist and a neo-Christian? Absolutely.

[Ishq]

[Replying to darthbarracuda]
I see no reason why a person could not be be both a Panentheist and a Christian. Many of the Christians Mystics were just that.

I read the attempts to define Panentheism here, but I don't think it can be rightly done. It would be like trying to defining God.

In Panentheism I see the answer to the question: Where does one go to "see" and "experience" God? If not with in Life itSelf, than where?

.

[Overcomer]

You can be a Christian OR you can be a pantheist. You cannot be both.

The God of the Bible is transcendent. This means that he exists outside of his creation. He is not part of it.

A pantheist believes that any deity out there is part and parcel of his creation. Creation supposedly emanates from him/them.

Obviously, these two worldviews are vastly different and you cannot be both at the same time. One of the great tragedies in this world is the fact that people have this tendency to worship the creation instead of the Creator. That's what pantheism does.

I guess the question I would ask is this: What is there about pantheism that appeals to you? It offers no explanation for evil in the world nor, even more importantly, no antidote for it. It offers no means of salvation. In fact, I can't see anything good about it.

On the other hand, Jesus Christ offers salvation -- something that is attainable only through him. We are all born sinners. God can't have sin in heaven. But we cannot change our sin natures and would remain dead in our sins if not for Jesus. Being fully God AND fully man, he could alone atone for our sins and, being sin-free, he alone can exchange his righteousness for our sins, thereby opening the door of heaven to us.

Can pantheism do that? No. Can any other religion do that? No. All other religions are about people trying to earn their way into heaven by doing good deeds and following rules and performing rites. It can't be done. Christianity offers the only means of salvation. Therefore, I would not choose to walk away from it if I were you. You'd be walking away from the truth and replacing it with a bunch of lies.

[Ishq]

You can be a Christian OR you can be a pantheist. You cannot be both.

Did you mean "Pantheist"? Or "Panenthiest" and just miss-spelled it? I ask because they provide different trajectories to the Divine. Panenthiesm is the subject of this thread.

The God of the Bible is transcendent. This means that he exists outside of his creation. He is not part of it.

Where does one look to "see" and "experience" God?

Interestingly, it is this point that drove the final stick into the ground that caused me to de-convert. There was other stuff, but this one did it for me.

It all started when I began asking where does one go to "see" God? This question came up in the days I was searching for God in a deeper sort of way. After a while I started seeing Him with in Life itSelf. This process took quite some time. But from seeing the mother's tender love for her new born child to a mountain meadow filled with spring flowers, I began to see God everywhere. And after a long while it eventually became clear to me that God is IS a part of, whole and United as One with His own Creation. And that He is not separate and apart from it as I had been taught.

Having de-converted I found this next part interesting - I began to understand that through this change in perspective I have gone through, Christ has become way more important to me than He ever was before. Today I can truly say that I Love Jesus Christ. I couldn't do that before. But I sure wouldn't call myself a Christian any longer. And seeing God as united, whole and One with His own Creation and not apart and separate from it sure has a lot to do with it.

.

[Reverend Richard]

[Replying to post 1 by darthbarracuda]

@ Darth - I would suggest you look into New Thought as a possible channel for your beliefs. I am an ordained minister in an independent branch of New Thought. Some denominations of New Thought include:

1. Religious Science (also known as Science of Mind) - by the way, don't confuse Religious Science with Christian Science. They are two very different things.

2. Unity Church of Christianity (not to be confused with Unitarian Universalists)

Both of these groups hold some beliefs that might be considered about as close to panentheism as you can get and still maintain some connection to Jesus' teachings.

[fatherlearningtolove]

[Replying to post 1 by darthbarracuda]

I don't think there's any problem between Panentheism and Christianity. In fact, I think that until you start to think in Panentheistic terms, you can't understand the Trinity.

First off, I would say that I didn't start to think in Panentheistic terms until I became a Universalist, something I defend in detail on my blog series "Checkmate For Hell".

After I became a Universalist, this led me to rethink some concepts such as the trinity. And that led me to Panentheism.

There is a blogger named David Hayward who came up with a concept called the Z-Theory - he explains it in a number of posts on his blog, but this might be the best one.

[Jagged Zen Monkey]

I was raised a Christian.

I began to question some of the beliefs of it, like the idea of a "Personal God" and Heaven/Hell and the rituals and customs and whatnot.

After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that I was most like a Panentheist.

However, I'm finding a hard time just letting go of Christianity. I have a small cross that's been hanging in my room for ages, and I took it down only after a lot of contemplation. It was like I was still believing/fearing God, even though I've decided that the Christian idea of God doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

And it's not like I hate Christianity. I think one of the reasons I'm having trouble letting go of it is because it does teach good. It does teach to lead a good life. It's optimistic and full of morals and stuff. But there are some things I don't agree with.

So I was thinking of going the opposite way: Do you think you can be a Panentheist and a Christian? I know that a Panentheist's idea of God is drastically different from a Christians, but honestly do you think you could still go to church and do all the stuff other Christians do even though you have a different idea of the qualities of God?

Not only this, but I want to find a group of people that are like me. One of the pros of being in a religion is that there's a social aspect to it. Being a Panentheist...well...it's kinda boring. Yeah there's sites for PANtheism (which is like a cousin to Panentheism) and some forums but not an actual religion. I guess for it to be a religion you would have to add in all these rituals and traditions and stuff, which I don't believe in. And there's no real holy book or pamphlet. And no interesting history or anything.

A lot of Pan(en)theists are also Neo-Pagans. Although I find the idea interesting and kind of cool, I can't actually see myself being part of a Coven or being a Wiccan or something of the sorts.

Yes. I myself think you can still be a Christian. Scriptures state that man was created in God's image. God is simply a term used to identify our origins. God is both father and mother. Our Heavenly Father is the incorporeal universe (spirit), our Heavenly Mother is the material universe (matter) and we are the offspring of both. Our Heavenly Mother supplies our physical (material) needs to survive, just as our Heavenly Father supplies our spiritual (incorporeal) needs to survive. Together they make up God [plural]. I am a Christian and I approve this message.