Is atheism worth a tinker's dam?

[bluethread]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

I'm reminded of the notion, not explicitely presented in the OP, of how Christians (theists) declare so many lives broken or in need of repair simply 'cause they ain't Christian (theist).

Sometimes the cure might well be worse'n the disease.

[MasterOfOnesOwnMind]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

As an atheist, I live my life in the now and enjoy every waking moment as much as I possibly can. The fact that when I die, I will most likely feel nothing anymore (the same as before life) is out of my control, so why let it ruin the time i DO have here in reality?

If someone needs temporary solace, false pretense is not a very ethical way of achieving it in my opinion. Where a religious person might say "my prayers will be with you" I would offer a tangible shoulder for them to lean on, which in my experience has always been more effective.

So in conclusion, to answer your question: "does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?"

For me it does, because I'm too busy enjoying life to worry about death.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by bluethread]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

No. Atheism isn't a support group.

[jgh7]

The comfort that Atheism provides correlates with the actual comfort of ones own life. Because for atheism, you must acknowledge that all there is is this one life.

So if you're living a horribly bad life, atheism will not appeal to you. It will seem just like life: hopeless suffering and then death.

If you're living a mediocre life, then atheism is just mediocre.

If you're living a good life, then atheism is a good embracement of the joy of that good life.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 1 by bluethread]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

No. Atheism isn't a support group.

It's not a group you 'join up' with, like the Gobstone Club. I've been nontheist for years and never 'joined' atheism. In fact, I had no idea that there was an ongoing mega-debate between theists and nons until about a year ago. I had no idea people got together as a group in reaction to religious stuff. Sure, I'm slow on the uptake.

In a way I didn't even find it necessary to join or alter any pre-existing beliefs when I did discover the atheist movement. They were all sayin' the same stuff I'd been thinking for years, only fleshed out.

Being an atheist in the US, up until recently, was a lot like being excluded from all the other groups. Even our designation in surveys is 'the nones'.

Asking if atheism provides solace (as if it is obligated to?) is like asking if atheism has a 'plan', or a solution for world hunger. It kinda makes me go 'huh?' It's an understandable projection for theists to make from their point of view, that atheists have a 'manifesto' or guiding principle. It might be developing something like that, some groups of self-ID'd atheists, but it's like lumping all theists into one lump, just as misleading.

That said . . . I don't know what my position is, or if it's any of my business to have one, about the 'solace' issue. As a nurse I've been witness to too many people needing more solace than what's available, and it seems deeply wrong (sonorous, booming voice wrong) to 'mess' with people's solace, however they can get it. Atheism isn't obligated to offer a replacement solace because atheism is not an ideology (well, yet), and it has no business taking solace away. Though many theists claim their beliefs are not based in residency choices in the afterlife , when the rubber hits the road and solace is needed . . .

[marco]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

I see that some people have replied that they are fine with atheism. The question asked was - does it help those who need support? Different people have different requirements and many need hope, just as little children ask for a toy at bedtime. Why should we disparage this human need? And who knows what lies beyond death? There may well be bright lights and joyous emancipation? The how and the why don't matter - we don't know.

If atheism states categorically that there is nothing to follow then atheism is making the same unfounded claim as the believer, with less generous intent. People who find solace in their faith are in many respects luckier than the atheist who has nothing but the fleeting hours of a short life. "Eheu, fugaces, Postume, Postume, labuntur anni" (the years, alas, are slipping away from us, Postumus) said Horace who, like us now, enjoyed life and conversation and is now among the millennia.

If there is a God it is such a great pity he has not used a heavenly microphone to give more people a bit of comfort. Then again, the being who sent bears to rip up laughing children wouldn't want to comfort anyone. Still, there are millions who think God's a nice guy and they surely enjoy a quieter end than those who believe their last breath is termination. All in all atheism provides nothing but a brief feeling of superiority for those as want it.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 46 by marco]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

I see that some people have replied that they are fine with atheism. The question asked was - does it help those who need support? Different people have different requirements and many need hope, just as little children ask for a toy at bedtime. Why should we disparage this human need? And who knows what lies beyond death? There may well be bright lights and joyous emancipation? The how and the why don't matter - we don't know.

That's right, we don't know.

That's the only honest answer. However, there are those who PRETEND to have an answer, when of course, they have nothing of the sort. Atheists dont bash people's NEED for solace, it's just that we don't subscribe to fantasy solutions to real life problems.

If atheism states categorically that there is nothing to follow then atheism is making the same unfounded claim as the believer, with less generous intent.

What unfounded claim?

What is there in a universe that "should be followed"? I also fail to see where generosity comes into the picture. What did you mean by my intent is "less generous"? Less generous than WHAT.....could you elaborate?

People who find solace in their faith are in many respects luckier than the atheist who has nothing but the fleeting hours of a short life. "Eheu, fugaces, Postume, Postume, labuntur anni" (the years, alas, are slipping away from us, Postumus) said Horace who, like us now, enjoyed life and conversation and is now among the millennia.

People, even very wise people DIE.

People who find solace in their faith also die. But some people pretend to know about some dream land after death if they are faithful to their programming, and others have broken free from the programming and scoff at the dreams.

Solace is nice. Good for being solaced. What the atheist won't do is pretend that something is real when it's not. Solaced by a fantasy ? ... fine if you think that's worthy of praise. I don't think it is. How about we find solace in things that are real, and to US, not to some religious authority that is now, thousands of years old. How about we atheists find solace in what we make out of our lives? How about we don't pretend that fantasies are as real as the rest of the known universe?

How about we find solace in not fooling ourselves?

If there is a God it is such a great pity he has not used a heavenly microphone to give more people a bit of comfort. Then again, the being who sent bears to rip up laughing children wouldn't want to comfort anyone. Still, there are millions who think God's a nice guy and they surely enjoy a quieter end than those who believe their last breath is termination. All in all atheism provides nothing but a brief feeling of superiority for those as want it.

Your view of atheists is... interesting, but perhaps not very charitable towards us. And it also might be very wrong.

[Divine Insight]

Many atheist use the term atheistic to actually mean they are agnostic. In fact, those particular atheists proclaim that agnostics are actually atheists, because atheists are using the term atheist to essentially mean agnostic.

However, having said that there do exists atheists who are convinced that science has provided sufficient evidence that there is no God, so they actually use the term atheist to mean "A belief that there is no God, or spiritual, or mystical, essence to reality.

So even among those who call themselves "Atheists" the term means different things to different individuals. Some are convinced that science proves the can be no God or mystical essence to reality, others actually mean that they are "Agnostic" with respect to this idea.

~~~~~

I think the term is also worth looking into with respect to specific religions.

For example, even Christians are "atheists" with respect to all God's other than the one described in their Bible. They not only don't believe that Thor or Zeus exist, but they are certain that those Gods do not exist.

On the other hand there may be "atheists" who totally reject the Christian or Biblical God as being obviously false due to the endless self-contradictions of the Biblical description of that God. Therefore they know that the Biblical God cannot exist as described in the Bible precisely because it would be an oxymoron. A self-contradictory entity.

However, those particular "atheists" may not dismiss all possible notions of a "God" or mystical essence of reality.

For example, I am a 100% convinced atheist in terms of the Biblical God. I'm certain that the Biblical God cannot possibly exist as described in the Bible. And it's meaningless to even speak of a "Biblical God" that is different from what the Bible describes. The the God is different from what the Bible describes then it wouldn't be the "Biblical God".

So I am as certain that the "Biblical God" is false as much as the Christians are certain that Zeus or Thor, etc, are false.

Christians are every bit as "Atheist" as I am. They are just atheists with respect to different God myths.

~~~~

Do I believe that it's possible that some other concept of "God" could potentially exist? Yes, I do believe that it may indeed be possible, and so I am agnostic with respect to that larger ideal.

So I am a convinced Atheist with respect the Biblical God, Zeus, Thor, etc.

But I'm agnostic with respect to the possibly that there may exist something magical going on possibly including a "God" of some sort.

Is that "hopeless" on my part?

Hardly. And besides, what if pure secular materialism is true?

What if that is the truth of reality?

Some people may not be able to handle that. I confess that I'm not exactly happy about an accidental and fleeting materialistic existence. But at the same time I can accept that if this is indeed the truth of reality that's just the way things are.

If that's going to make me break down and start weeping because things aren't the way I wish they could be, then what's the point to that? Crying over something you can't change isn't going to change what it is.

So when we ask is atheism worth a tinker's damn? Well, if its the truth of reality that our existence is nothing more than a materialistic temporary accident then we need to ask: "Would that be worth a tinker's damn?"

On to put it another way, "Would truth be worth a tinker's damn?"

Some people, including myself would rather know what's actually truth. If there is no God, and no mystical or spiritual essence to life, it would be great to actually know that this is the truth of reality.

I'm not afraid of truth. And I can't imagine why anyone would be afraid of truth.

If our existence is some sort of fleeting materialistic accident I would think that would still be quite interesting. Especially if we could actually know this to be a fact. Which of course we don't.

But at the same time, I think we can rest assured that we can know that the Biblical God is at least as false as Zeus and Thor. Of that we can be 100% certain with no room for doubt.

[marco]

[Replying to post 47 by Blastcat]


The atheist, as opposed to the agnostic, says there is no God. This is frequently extrapolated into there is nothing after death. The point I made was that we can't possibly know this so when someone categorically says there IS NOTHING, their dogmatism is the same as that of the believer who says THERE IS. Mr. Dawkins may say that the agnostic is merely sitting on the fence. Amen.

For those who wait their last few minutes KNOWING there is nothing more, there is perhaps regret. For those who BELIEVE they are entering a nicer world there is HOPE.

My position on the Biblical God is he's an invention -but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.

It would appear that the balance of comfort resides not with the atheist.

[Divine Insight]

My position on the Biblical God is he's an invention -but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.

I would agree that to even make-believe that life could somehow be perpetuated beyond this world is more pleasing than not. Especially if we imagine that perpetuated world being far better than this one.

But does that justify huge religious institutions that actually encourage, or even "preach" to people that this imagined fantasy holds some actual truth?

I think therein lies that problem. History has demonstrated that when masses believe in a religion people can be incited to do some seriously nasty things to other people.

Torturing and burning live women to death at the stake in the name of religious superstition is hardly a good thing. People blowing themselves up and killing other people in the name of God is hardly a good thing too.

The question then becomes, "Should we encourage people to actually believe in these potentially dangerous religions?"

The amount of damage that these religions cause is incalculable. I would even claim that having been raised to believe in Christianity has been "damaging" to my life in many ways.

Just because it may be "comfy" for some people doesn't justify the harm it causes many others. The number of gay people that these religions have seriously harmed is not doubt in the millions, over the course of history.

I don't think religions are worth much if they only comfort a few but harm so many. In fact, even many people who claim to be "believers" may actually be harmed by these religions in ways that they aren't even aware of. Everyone who believes in these religions doesn't do so because they think it's "comfy". Many people who believe in these religions are actually in deep anguish in their belief that it's true.

I have a personal friend from way back in high school. He's a Catholic. He believes the religion is true. Yet he is not happy about this at all. On the contrary he believes that his damnation is certain, even though he believes in the religion. He had a drug problem in his 30's and his wife ended up divorcing him. He thinks this is a major sin that he will never be forgiven for. He also had sex with a woman long after that divorce and he got that woman pregnant, even though she told him that she wasn't capable of even getting pregnant. This woman ended up getting an abortion. So now he feels like he's guilty of having caused this abortion. I asked him, "Was the abortion your idea?" He said no, he would have married the woman and raised the kid. I said, "Well then your in the clear. You would have done the right thing. That option simply wasn't available to you."

He's just totally depressed with guilt, and feels certain that he will be damned. And this causes him to drink a lot and get drunk all the time, and he even feels like this makes him an even bigger sinner. It's just keeps snowballing out of control. He's certain that he will be damned and he's scared to death than when he dies he'll be cast into hell.

So there's a "believer" for you that get's absolutely no comfort from his beliefs at all. His beliefs are causing him to go through hell in this life imagining that when he dies he's going straight to hell.

Apparently he can't even forgive himself for these things so he sees no reason why Jesus would forgive him. He's just totally wallowing in guilt about spilled milk that he can't do anything about.

His religious beliefs are causing him extreme anguish.

So these religions aren't even making everyone who believes in them feel good.