Is atheism worth a tinker's dam?

[bluethread]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 66 by Divine Insight]

I am not sure that each individual should adopt his own language. That sounds like the Tower of Babel to me. Each individual speaking his own individual language.. words may be the same.. but the meanings.. all up in the air with NO consensus.
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Welcome to the real world Blastcat.

How ironic!

I think you have made a case that reality doesn't even exist or whatnot. So, what REAL world are you talking about? The MAGICAL world that you personally experience but that nobody else can?

If your interest is in sincerely wanting to communicate with me, and you're not sure what I mean by a particular word or term, then you'll simply ask me for clarification on how I am using the term and what it means to me. If you disagree with my use of the term you are then free to explain what it means to you.

I've been doing nothing BUT asking what it is you believe in and why, and how you define your central terms... but what has been offered again and again is evasion.

Calling me a semantic bully or whatever wont really SERVE as good communication.
One doesn't have to bother lecturing me about the importance of asking for clarification when that's all I've been DOING.... I don't need LECTURING.. I need some CLARITY.

Personal attacks aren't clarifications.
Neither are fallacious forms of reasoning.

I'm TRYING to make sense out of what you say you believe in.. that doesn't shoot itself in the foot, as you say. All I see are your very damaged feet. Full of bullets. And a smoking gun. In your hands. And a neon sign above your head reading "He pulled the trigger".

God is also agreeing with me, but that's a personal experience I can't prove right now......Just take my word for it... the CREATOR god agrees with me. ( in a purely personal kind of way just for me, to each his own )

Do I have to LIST ( numerically ) each of your evasions so far?
I love to make lists. Please say "yes".

But I will now give you some preliminary definitions. Tell me how you might disagree.

Magic:

So.. I have no definition for "magic". I don't know what that is other than the LACK of an explanation for things happening that I sometimes read about in books. I like fantasy fiction. I read that all the time, and magic is often used as a component. I refer you yet again to Harry Potter. Magic just "happens".... people have it and some people don't. That's it. No explanation at all. And we all know that Harry Potter isn't REAL. I hope that we can agree on that.

Bible magic? Still no explanation. It just IS.... at least in the BOOK it just is. We have no reason to believe that magic actually DOES exist in any way shape or form. THE ONLY kind of "magic" that I DO know exists is stage magic. The fake kind.

Reality:

Reality is what we call a true fact of nature. We can verify facts, facts are real. We may be mistaken about facts, and be wrong about them, but that's because we aren't perfect omniscient beings. We may dream up all kinds of hypotheses, but we have to TEST them... to see if they are "real' and conform to everything else that we know about nature. We live in nature. We don't KNOW about what might be OUTSIDE of nature, so it's useless to take any speculation as TRUE before the facts.

God... I define god as a mythical being with "magical powers" of some sort. It does things magically. Abracadabra.. the universe happened. God did that.

Creator.. I define a creator as another hypothetical god being that is postulated where our real knowledge of nature ends.

"Theist" means someone who believes in a god of some sort, like a creator god.

"Atheist" means someone who doesn't do that.

"Agnostic" is someone who doesn't KNOW... about gods.

However, if your purpose is to ram a dictionary definition down my throat demanding that I bow down to your favor semantic definitions, then I no longer view you as a person who is sincerely interested in communication. At that point I see you as nothing more than a semantic bully.

If you include the exact opposite of the concept that atheism is supposed to mean, you render yourself completely unintelligible. If I'm guilty of bullying you, its bullying you to be understandable. You say that reality is magic. That is contradictory. Like your view on atheism.. at least from what I can take from your vague ideas so far. Hard to tell.

So, PLEASE be clear.

I keep asking you if you believe in a creator god. Over and over again, I keep asking you and you STILL find it important to answer me by way of evasion.

If you believe in a god, you aren't an atheist. For heaven's sake.

I will ask you again for your definitions, and if you don't care to answer, you will show that you don't care to communicate honestly.

1. What is magic?
2. How do you define reality?
3. What method do you use to know that either or both exist?
4. Is reality "real"?
5. Do you believe in a creator god?

And I think my explanation above should be sufficient without any need for you to go running off to a dictionary looking up every single word I've used here.

But I do if I want to understand the points you seem to want to defend:

1.You question reality. How then can you say that what you believe in is REAL ????
2. You equate reality with magic. So, now.. I have no idea what you mean by EITHER.
3. You don't DEFINE magic, as if magic makes any kind of "sense", but we don't even know what kind of magic you imagine "must be".
4. You don't define reality, either, other than saying it's really magic, after all. But what's MAGIC, after all?
5. You seem to think that bad logic is good logic. I GUESS.... you use enough fallacious reasoning to demonstrate that.
6. You seem to imply that someone who believes in a god is well defined as an atheist. The word for that is actually THEIST.... the very opposite. Who KNOWS what you are talking about?
7. You seem to use an argument from design ( ID ) that is used to justify a THEISTIC god of the Bible. And we know that's a failure. At best, they can only point to a DEIST god... a god that might not BE like what the people who invented the argument think their god is like.. Up close and personal. But who on earth KNOWS what you think? Maybe you think that MAGIC is up close and personal. It took you years to figure all of this out.
8.But you aren't doing a bang up job of explaining it to us. Your communication of it is very poor.
9.Welcome to the real world? What's "real world" about MAGIC, pray tell? I don't see any real magic in the real world, thank you very much. Sometimes you use the world "real" just like everyone else, and sometimes, you use it to mean "magic".

You might as well say that black means white. That's confusing. I would bet that you make perfect SEMANTIC sense to most people EXCEPT when you try to defend your religious convictions. ( again, whatever they might BE .. you haven't clarified )

Who knows what you mean when you talk about your ..... whatever you call your beliefs ? I can't guess. I have to ask you over and over and over for clarification about that.
But I can plainly see an evasion tactic when it's presented.

Tell us by what method you used to figure out that reality isn't real, and that it's actually magic again that I've taken the pretty great amount of trouble to refute.

1. I haven't seen any answer to those objections.
2. I haven't read any indication that you care about your logical failures.

And I have to read an ironic lecture about the value of good communication?

Tell us what you believe and by what methods you arrived at your conclusions. Should be simple.

So far, I can't make heads or tails of any of it.
Snake oil alert!

[Danmark]

I used this expression in another thread and then stopped the think, is atheism worth a tinker's dam. In other words, does atheism provide even temporary solace to broken people who need support while they repair their lives?

"Atheism" isn't a belief at all. It does not pretend to be. It is the absence of a belief. I don't even like the term because it inadvertently sets up theism as a belief worthy of being negative toward. I prefer 'non theist' if one needs a label at all.

I suggest that the essence of what the non theist believes in is truth. In general he sees science as the most reliable methodology to find truth, but he also acknowledges the limitations of science, the beauty of nature and the value of the search for value, goodness, beauty, and wisdom. There is great value in such a quest.

This is a value and a quest that true religion should also encompass: never letting one's beliefs to be frozen into dogma, but instead to always be open to truth.

[marco]

I suggest that the essence of what the non theist believes in is truth. In general he sees science as the most reliable methodology to find truth, but he also acknowledges the limitations of science, the beauty of nature and the value of the search for value, goodness, beauty, and wisdom. There is great value in such a quest.

This is a value and a quest that true religion should also encompass: never letting one's beliefs to be frozen into dogma, but instead to always be open to truth.

I have great sympathy with what you write.
Keats said that beauty is truth, truth beauty. But I think there is also beauty in fiction. You cannot possibly look at the sculptures and paintings in Italian churches and fail to see something wonderful. It is a nice thought that every atheist is a truth seeker; but the more we learn the more we realise how deep is our ignorance. Newton put it well: he felt he was just a boy on a beach discovering a shinier pebble while the whole ocean of truth lay unexplored before him.

At the present time our non-theist truths are pretty dim; light still shines triumphantly among those who cluster round God. In a future time the vast majority will put aside its comfort blankets for something better than cold denial. Can you confidently turn to someone who believes in an afterlife and affirm there is none? I can't and I cannot imagine where I would ever derive the certainty to enable me to say such a thing.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 72 by marco]

ur non-theist truths are pretty dim; light still shines triumphantly among those who cluster round God. In a future time the vast majority will put aside its comfort blankets for something better than cold denial.

Cold denial is all that I have?.. No, when I put away my comforting blanket of religion, I started to enjoy REALITY instead. There are many comforts enjoying what is true instead of what is merely dreamed about.

Reality trumps delusion every time. Believers and non-believers live in the SAME reality. It's best to understand it better, not worse. Much much better.

Now, we can all take great comfort in that. Amen.

Can you confidently turn to someone who believes in an afterlife and affirm there is none? I can't and I cannot imagine where I would ever derive the certainty to enable me to say such a thing.

OH come on, the probability that any gobbledy-gook in the Bible is true.. is exceedingly low. The real problem is that some theists are confident to affirm that there is such a thing based on old superstitions and ZERO evidence.

Our skepticism of their supernatural claims is ENTIRELY justified.

That the NATURAL world exists is not in question. Anything ELSE.. has YET to be demonstrated.

[marco]

Blastcat, fellow traveller, I made the same rational decision as you. When we assess what our reason and logic have given us, let us agree to our own definition of what we find. I can happily enjoy the temporary stay here on Earth and I do. When I read Fitzgerald's Omar Khayyam I enjoy it, but for heaven's sake you cannot read its constant reminders that our drinking session is soon to end without feeling that it would be nice if there WERE another tavern in another place. That bitter-sweet angst, that poetry, is all I express when I look at believers. I don't actually need a reassessment of the position you and I have logically reached. That said, I'll skip merrily on......

... when I put away my comforting blanket of religion, I started to enjoy REALITY instead. There are many comforts enjoying what is true instead of what is merely dreamed about.

Reality permitting, these comforts are in the reach of believer and non believer. They are ephemera. Their transitory nature is for me a little sad. Elizabeth 1 understood my point pretty well when on her deathbed she offered her kingdom for a moment in time.

Reality trumps delusion every time. Believers and non-believers live in the SAME reality. It's best to understand it better, not worse. Much much better.

I wish I possessed your mastery of the epigram. There are millions of people who would readily exchange their reality for delusion - so the trump does not apply "every time." If you are in the happy position of being in a happy reality with a happy spread of years ahead of you, that reality trumps lots of things. By delusion you mean religious conviction. My observation is that an abundance of devout folk enjoy an existence that is certainly cheerier and more hopeful than that experienced by academies of pensive realists. I concede that your own position may trump everything. As Christ said: lucky are the blastcats, for they don't need God.

Can you confidently turn to someone who believes in an afterlife and affirm there is none? I can't and I cannot imagine where I would ever derive the certainty to enable me to say such a thing.

OH come on, the probability that any gobbledy-gook in the Bible is true.. is exceedingly low. The real problem is that some theists are confident to affirm that there is such a thing based on old superstitions and ZERO evidence.

You have a pleasing way of addressing what seems to be some witlessness of mine. You attach to me absurd views and then demolish them. What you describe has zero probability, so why entertain me with it? As for post-mortem existence, I have absolutely no evidence if it is or isn't. Neither have you.

That the NATURAL world exists is not in question. Anything ELSE.. has YET to be demonstrated.

Well there are many areas of philosophy that examine the existence of what exists. It is all very well to kick a stone and affirm that proves it exists. When we kick a stone in a dream, the stone doesn't exist. Nor does it prove much to say, with Descartes: cogito ergo sum. Existence at the quantum level is problematic. The wise man makes no definitive statements about our reality and it may be that the nonsense we have discarded is, in its own way, a better approximation to truth than what our intuition tells us. All airy speculation, of course, but that is part of philosophy, and indulging speculation is the reason why you are communicating with someone as unaccomplished as marco here. Go well.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 74 by marco]

"...but for heaven's sake you cannot read its constant reminders that our drinking session is soon to end without feeling that it would be nice if there WERE another tavern in another place.

Drinking session.. what an odd way to describe life. I like to drink from time to time, it's fun, it's entertaining. But I don't want to spend my entire life drunk. Sometimes, it's way better to appreciate life unimpaired.

I don't think that life is like a drunken delusion , reality is real enough. No need to pretend otherwise. Yes, there are things that are scary about being alive. Lets think about those things clearly, as well. No need to pretend something to make ourselves feel better.

When an actual party is over, and the drinking is done, reality is still there, and it's still just as real. Drinking wont change that. Delusions wont either.

Including religious delusions, of course.

I argue with you because of your bleak point of view. We agree that there are no gods, but we don't have to agree that life itself is bleak and that somehow, we should want to indulge in a life of delusions to make it all seem better.

A binge of self delusion does NOT make anything better, and there are many people who can and do explain how life without delusions is a wonderful experience.

... when I put away my comforting blanket of religion, I started to enjoy REALITY instead. There are many comforts enjoying what is true instead of what is merely dreamed about.

Reality permitting, these comforts are in the reach of believer and non believer. They are ephemera. Their transitory nature is for me a little sad. Elizabeth 1 understood my point pretty well when on her deathbed she offered her kingdom for a moment in time.

We can choose to fear death OR to want more of it. It's rational to want more of it. It's NOT rational to pretend that there is more when we just don't know, or have any good reason to think that there is. Remember, we were in a state of "death" long before we were ever alive, and that never hurt us in any way.

It's unreasonable to fear death itself... there is literally nothing to fear. BUT to want more of life ... perfectly reasonable. That doesn't mean that we atheists have to think that a delusion is better than reality. We haven't lost anything but our delusions.

You don't have to feel that you "lost" anything when you gave them up. You GAINED much more. You gained the rational light of day. Now, you can embrace reality, and stop being so glum about having "lost" some UNREAL delusions.

Aren't you happier NOT living in a dream? ...

Reality trumps delusion every time. Believers and non-believers live in the SAME reality. It's best to understand it better, not worse. Much much better.

There are millions of people who would readily exchange their reality for delusion - so the trump does not apply "every time."

OH, I know full well that so many of us "fellow travelers" prefer their delusions over reality... that's what I think goes WRONG with the world. I think of ISIS... people like that. People who actually prefer their delusions over reality.

We can't even begin to reason with people who have abandoned reality.

It looks like the only option we have with people like that is to go to war with them. How sad. If they ONLY chose to deal with life as it really is instead of how they hoped and dreamed that it was.

That's what I meant by reality trumps delusion. Living in a delusion leads to disaster. Personal and societal disaster.

If you are in the happy position of being in a happy reality with a happy spread of years ahead of you, that reality trumps lots of things.

Why would delusion help me if I wasn't in a happy situation?... I'm like any other person. I have my struggles. I would rather confront them awake instead of asleep or drunk on a delusion. Do you suggest that as soon as we are unhappy that we all take heroin?

Because that would take care of our unhappiness... as long as we didn't stop taking the heroin. Is that a kind of a life that someone should aspire to?

Being deluded and drunk or high all the time?... I say.. no.

We can pretend once in a while, even take drugs and alcohol once in a while.. for fun. But not as a way of living. That kind of life has disastrous consequences.

So, no, unfortunately, I do NOT have the happiest life nor the biggest spread of years ahead of me. But Id much rather spend the time that I have AWAKE and rational thank drunk on whatever drug you SEEM to advocate.

I don't wish I were deluded by religion as I used to be.. and be happy.. I wish to be as clear minded as possible and think better about the only life that I have.

I'm living now. I want to be awake and happy. Not drugged and having the illusion of happiness.

By delusion you mean religious conviction. My observation is that an abundance of devout folk enjoy an existence that is certainly cheerier and more hopeful than that experienced by academies of pensive realists.

No, by delusion I mean a belief that is not true. Most theists live their life on beliefs that are patently not true.

IF these pensive realists aren't happy with reality itself, then these pensive realists aren't really being pensive ENOUGH. But that's altogether off topic from the fact that no matter HOW happy or unhappy they might be, nobody has any good reason or evidence to think that any happy making gods exist.

But if you want to know how to be happy WITHOUT the delusions of religions.. there are resources that do a much better job than I ever could.

I concede that your own position may trump everything. As Christ said: lucky are the blastcats, for they don't need God.

My position is offered in complete humility, I assure you.

Can you confidently turn to someone who believes in an afterlife and affirm there is none? I can't and I cannot imagine where I would ever derive the certainty to enable me to say such a thing.

OH come on, the probability that any gobbledy-gook in the Bible is true.. is exceedingly low. The real problem is that some theists are confident to affirm that there is such a thing based on old superstitions and ZERO evidence.

You have a pleasing way of addressing what seems to be some witlessness of mine. You attach to me absurd views and then demolish them. What you describe has zero probability, so why entertain me with it? As for post-mortem existence, I have absolutely no evidence if it is or isn't. Neither have you.

Then I should rephrase what I meant so that there can be as little ambiguity as possible. I didn't want to misrepresent yours in any way. If I did, I would like you to assume mistake, not intention.

I CAN and do confidently turn to someone who believes in an afterlife and affirm there is none, by the statement of probability that I offered you. We have NO good reason OR any evidence at all of an afterlife. So, of course, it's not reasonable to imagine that there IS such an event, NOR A PLACE like "heaven".

I can confidently assert that. However, they don't care. As we have discussed, they would rather continue to believe in their happy making delusion that face the facts.

I deal with these people on a daily basis. BUT .. some people ARE persuaded by sound reasoning, so I soldier on. I was such a person. I was a believer, ( had NO choice but to be ) and then was persuaded by sound reasoning.

So, yes, I am not HAPPY that someone took the time and considerable effort to present sound reasoning and oppose it to my religious convictions.

So, YES... I am confident to turn to someone like that.. I was once someone like that. And I needed someone to confidently turn to ME with accurate reasoning.

I'm just happy someone did. In my case, it was Bertrand Russell and Aldous Huxley. Now, we have the internet, and even humble travelers as ourselves can turn someone on to reality. I hope that we could turn them all.

Let's show them that giving up their religions doesn't mean they have to give up happiness. That isn't so. It's not so for me, it's not so for millions of atheists, and it's not really so for you. Not if you think about it all the way through.

Maybe someone with even more confidence than I have can turn around and tell you that, too.

That the NATURAL world exists is not in question. Anything ELSE.. has YET to be demonstrated.

Well there are many areas of philosophy that examine the existence of what exists. It is all very well to kick a stone and affirm that proves it exists. When we kick a stone in a dream, the stone doesn't exist.

Right. A real stone isn't the same as an imaginary stone. A false belief about a stone, is a delusion about a stone. There are real stones.. we don't know at all if there are real gods or any real afterlife.

Nor does it prove much to say, with Descartes: cogito ergo sum. Existence at the quantum level is problematic.

Maybe you think that "life is but a dream".. seems to me that many Christians feel that way too. Life to some Christians isn't as "real" as the afterlife.

Just because we have problems knowing EVERYTHING does not mean that Heaven or Hell exists, of that dreams of what may be are more real that what we DO know is real.

Should we imagine that your dream stone is MORE real somehow than an actual stone.. when we are stone cold AWAKE and kicking one?

The wise man makes no definitive statements about our reality

Then your wise man is mute. A wise man.. usually does tell us what he knows. It's no use pretending that just because the wise man doesn't know EVERYTHING that he doesn't know ANYTHING... of course the wise man knows a LOT about reality, and should NOT stay mute.

I would hope that a very wise man would explain bits of reality to ISIS ..... But it might be too late for them. Perhaps some wise man can explain it to us.. and to those who can be reached BEFORE it's too late.

Reality exists.. that's MY Cartesian bottom line, I'm not too convinced by the cogito. If reality is merely subjective, or worse, completely illusory, why NOT indulge in a delusion, as one delusion is just as UNREAL as any other. Pick the one that pleases us the best, I suppose.

I don't think reality is that subjective or illusory. At least I have NO evidence or way of knowing any different. If I stub my toe on a rock, it's consistently going to hurt, illusion or not, that's a consistency I can depend on. I depend on the consistency of my delusion that reality exists.. like I say.... my bottom line. Anything else, I'm not going to say. But to not say that is to abandon any reasoning whatsoever.. if ANYTHING can be true.. even bad reasoning can be true. ....

and it may be that the nonsense we have discarded is, in its own way, a better approximation to truth than what our intuition tells us.

We can speculate.. and that's what theists do. They not only speculate they then BELIEVE that their speculation is real. But they forget that what they think is real has not been established by any evidence. .. so they live in that dream. It might all be true.. any of these thousands upon thousands of religions might be TRUE.

But how would anyone know.... they can't know... they just pretend to . Pretending is all good for a GAME.. but for an actual LIFE?.. Pretending might lead to ISIS mentality.

All airy speculation, of course, but that is part of philosophy, and indulging speculation is the reason why you are communicating with someone as unaccomplished as marco here. Go well.

Yes, as I said, speculation is fun. AND may lead to actual knowledge about reality. That's how science is done at times. However, and this is vital, .. we should NEVER believe something is real or true AHEAD of the facts about it.

Pure speculation is easy. To test the speculation is much harder and in some cases HASN'T ever been done. In the case of Christianity.. their CLAIMS of what is real have stood for over 2000 years.. some for over 20,000 and STILL we have NO evidence that any of this is true.

How long are we supposed to HOLD a hypothesis on reality that has NO evidence at all before we GIVE IT UP?

In my opinion, you are still holding on to some... very old superstitious ideas. You seem to WISH they were true. They aren't true in the normal sense of the word.

And wishing for a drunken state of happiness wont change that fact.
Might the religious be correct? OF COURSE they might be.. but we should not believe that they are ahead of any fact. The time to believe is AFTER we have a good reason or good evidence that what they claim.. afterlife, happiness, god, demon, whatever, anything .. anything at all.. IS REAL by having them SHOW US the evidence that it's real.

I read somewhere a question about belief.. I love it.


"Do you believe I have a hamster?

1. If yes, say why
2. If no, say why

Is it at least possible that I have a hamster?

1. We know that hamsters exist.
2. We know that people have them

Now, change the word "hamster" for... any other claim. Say... the afterlife or ... god... whatever it is you choose.

It doesn't MATTER if we like or dislike the idea of a hypothetical hamster as much as the emotionally laden idea of an afterlife or god... so it might HELP you reason with less emotion.

You seem to pine for the after life even though you don't seem to believe in one. IF you would use the same reasoning about the afterlife as you would about my hypothetical hamster, it might help.

Emotions always only get in the way of accurate reasoning..... Life has it's ups and downs. BUT NOT JUST DOWNS.....

Happy traveling.

[marco]

I don't think that life is like a drunken delusion

Nor do I. It's a metaphor used by Omar Khayyam. I can see your religious friends must welcome blastcat's evangelical arrival on their doorsteps. For the record I'm not a drunk, honestly!

I argue with you because of your bleak point of view.

I am arguing one side of the OP. There are no promises in atheism; all the atheist has is what is on the table before him, and when the meal is over, it is over. The deluded religionist has a thing called hope. I used to have it and I know it is warm. I envy the religionist for having that, delusion or not. Horace wisely says: carpe diem, enjoy what you've got when you've still got it. And the poet Robery Herrick advises:

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may, old time is still a flying; and this same flower that smiles today, tomorrow may be dying.

It's unreasonable to fear death itself... there is literally nothing to fear. BUT to want more of life ... perfectly reasonable. That doesn't mean that we atheists have to think that a delusion is better than reality. We haven't lost anything but our delusions.

You undervalue these delusions, since some think they are pearls of great price, and demonstrate their belief by an optimism that surpasses sunrise. I am not belittling knowledge but all the great authors I read - even Russell - entertain but do not console. The Russian poet Pushkin writes of life: that it is a vain and random gift, and why the hell was it given to him? The very young mathematician Galois, phenomenally gifted, spent his last night on earth writing his great work, condensing it since as he noted in the margin: I have no time. He died in a duel the next day. Burns says that pleasures are like poppies spread, you seize the flower and the bloom is shed; or like a snowflake in a river, a moment white... I don't see that atheism, in accepting fleeting reality, makes itself superior to religion. It may have the intellectual boasting rights.

You don't have to feel that you "lost" anything when you gave them up. You GAINED much more. You gained the rational light of day. Now, you can embrace reality, and stop being so glum about having "lost" some UNREAL delusions.

In my religious boyhood I wasn't actually stupid. I gained and I lost.

"Aren't you happier NOT living in a dream?" Happiness is illusory.

and when you say:

" I'm living now. I want to be awake and happy. Not drugged and having the illusion of happiness."

It is an illusion. It is meaningless, purposeless. Life is the motion of a toy soldier. It is a black line drawn by a child on a sheet of paper, with a beginning and an end. Who am I to say to my believing mother that she is wrong and foolish and her joy is inferior to mine? That would be a lie. My silly ability to find flaws in what she believes does not render me superior in any way.

Should we imagine that your dream stone is MORE real somehow than an actual stone.. when we are stone cold AWAKE and kicking one?

My stone is a borrowing from the philosopher Berkeley. Boswell in his life of Johnson
writes:

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

Then your wise man is mute. A wise man.. usually does tell us what he knows.

Socrates opined he was the most foolish man in Greece for he alone knew how ignorant he was.

You seem to pine for the after life even though you don't seem to believe in one. IF you would use the same reasoning about the afterlife as you would about my hypothetical hamster, it might help.

I shall keep your hamster in mind. An 18-year old friend died suddenly and I stood at his grave, foolishly asking him if he was somewhere to let me know. The most amazing thing happened then which of course I wrote off as a one in a million coincidence. But nonetheless it cheered me up as I held the coffin cord. God wasn't involved. And I didn't desert my ability to reason - I never do.

Best regards, comrade.