"One of the most influential professors in the shaping of contemporary theology was Peter Abelard, (1079-1142). He is partly responsible for giving us modern theology. His teachings set the table and prepared the menu for scholastic philosophers like Thomas Aquinas, ( 1225-1274). Even before this Christianity became steeped in the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle.
The shocking historical fact is that many of the Christian church fathers were pagan philosophers and orators prior to their conversions, and the Christian faith soon began to take on a philosophical bent." ( Frank Viola pg.202).
( Much of this thread will draw from Frank Violas " Pagan Christianity", Eusebius" The history of the church", Boggs " The Christian Saga" and Rowdon " Theological education in historical perspective.") And from my own views of course. And I will draw on a few websites and articles, which I will always list the references.
Viola states, on Pg.203, " Within a century and a half after Christianity and Philosophy first came into contact, the ideas and methods of Philosophy had flowed in such mass into Christianity, and filled so large a place in it, as to have made it no less a Philosophy than a religion." Which when I read, was absolutely stunning!
When Philosophy got into the Christian bloodstream, especially Pagan philosophy, the Christian Theological Education system has never recovered from it. The fusion of Pagan and Christian elements, became a " Theology unto itself"; ( The term " Theology" used to describe Pagan beliefs).
What did philosophy really do to Christianity?
Moderator: Moderators
Post #71
marco wrote:mickiel wrote:marco wrote:I think that most discerning people ignore Revelation as the work of someone drunk or deranged. It is rather insulting to Jesus to suggest he had anything to do with this den of dragons and monsters and lakes of fire. It is a mystery why it was eventually accepted into mainline scripture. There is hope, then, for the inclusion of Harry Potter.mickiel wrote:
And I don't think that has changed; in fact, I think its gotten worse. But that's just my view.
Harry Potter is already in the bible, its called the imagination of men. I totally disagree that "Most discerning people ignore Revelations", I think 84 % of the worlds population pay some attention to it.
That would be surprising if it were true. Do you mean 84% of Christians? A priest I conversed with put no trust in it. But remember, I said "discerning people" - and multitudes give no guarantees of discernment. Far from it. If evidence you seek, have a look at Islamic theocracies.
No , 84 % of the worlds population, only a third of which is Christian.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/wat ... rd-are-ch/
Post #72
This indicates that 84% have some faith whatever that means. The vast majority will be poor, uneducated beings who have had faith thrown over them. Those cursed to live in Islamic theocracies where beheadings and stonings are practised will certainly not have access to Revelation.
What I said was that few DISCERNING people would bother with Revelation. I have no idea how you are relating this percentage figure to people who have knowledge of Revelation, unless you are simply playing semantic games and suggesting that any old kind of faith involves a "revelation." If you mean that, it is patently false since "revelation" would have to involve "truth" and many religions are mutually contradictory.
Post #73
marco wrote:This indicates that 84% have some faith whatever that means. The vast majority will be poor, uneducated beings who have had faith thrown over them. Those cursed to live in Islamic theocracies where beheadings and stonings are practised will certainly not have access to Revelation.
What I said was that few DISCERNING people would bother with Revelation. I have no idea how you are relating this percentage figure to people who have knowledge of Revelation, unless you are simply playing semantic games and suggesting that any old kind of faith involves a "revelation." If you mean that, it is patently false since "revelation" would have to involve "truth" and many religions are mutually contradictory.
If they are discerning people , as you suggested , then I suggest they will have some revelation, maybe not a lot ,but some. You can have some truth and some contradictions. I been that way all my life!
Post #74
Then you are speaking of revelation rather than Revelation, from which you had quoted earlier.mickiel wrote:
If they are discerning people , as you suggested , then I suggest they will have some revelation, maybe not a lot ,but some. You can have some truth and some contradictions. I been that way all my life!
It is possible to have "some revelation" only if there is something to be revealed. You lump people of every kind of faith together, so - discerning or not - they are receiving contradictory "revelations."
But in any case I was referring to Revelation, the text with the obscure prophecies. If you simply mean that religious folk all have a modicum of feeling that "there is something out there" - that's a harmless platitude with which it is impossible to disagree.
Post #75
marco wrote:Then you are speaking of revelation rather than Revelation, from which you had quoted earlier.mickiel wrote:
If they are discerning people , as you suggested , then I suggest they will have some revelation, maybe not a lot ,but some. You can have some truth and some contradictions. I been that way all my life!
It is possible to have "some revelation" only if there is something to be revealed. You lump people of every kind of faith together, so - discerning or not - they are receiving contradictory "revelations."
But in any case I was referring to Revelation, the text with the obscure prophecies. If you simply mean that religious folk all have a modicum of feeling that "there is something out there" - that's a harmless platitude with which it is impossible to disagree.
I think revelations , either the book , or the discernment, is out there a little bit in every group of humans. Here a little , there a little.
Post #76
Perhaps. Pliny said no book is so bad you learn nothing from it and perhaps you are saying no person is so thick they cannot teach us something. When one sees an assemblage of Muslims raising their posteriors in adoration it is hard to think that there is any revelation present - at least not spiritual. Darkness perhaps. Similarly, when we hear devout Christians talking in whispers on the Sabbath it is hard to think that there is anything being imparted.mickiel wrote:
I think revelations , either the book , or the discernment, is out there a little bit in every group of humans. Here a little , there a little.
I will concede that Keats seems to have been inspired when, as a young man about to die, he penned his Ode to a Nightingale. Lots of literature outside of the Bible is packed with what seems to be revelation. In the Bible itself, there is little true revelation and Revelation itself is a misnomer. Perhaps David's lament for Jonathan is one of the loveliest pieces, or Paul's uncharacteristically eloquent sermon to the Corinthians on what constitutes love.
Post #77
marco wrote:Perhaps. Pliny said no book is so bad you learn nothing from it and perhaps you are saying no person is so thick they cannot teach us something. When one sees an assemblage of Muslims raising their posteriors in adoration it is hard to think that there is any revelation present - at least not spiritual. Darkness perhaps. Similarly, when we hear devout Christians talking in whispers on the Sabbath it is hard to think that there is anything being imparted.mickiel wrote:
I think revelations , either the book , or the discernment, is out there a little bit in every group of humans. Here a little , there a little.
I will concede that Keats seems to have been inspired when, as a young man about to die, he penned his Ode to a Nightingale. Lots of literature outside of the Bible is packed with what seems to be revelation. In the Bible itself, there is little true revelation and Revelation itself is a misnomer. Perhaps David's lament for Jonathan is one of the loveliest pieces, or Paul's uncharacteristically eloquent sermon to the Corinthians on what constitutes love.
Oh I disagree , the bible is slap loaded with Revelation; but to each his own sight ,things like that just have to be seen. I think truth or revelation of it, is like sprinkling salt all over the world , but it only lands in certain people and takes differing levels of roots.
Post #78
mickiel wrote:
Oh I disagree , the bible is slap loaded with Revelation; but to each his own sight ,things like that just have to be seen. I think truth or revelation of it, is like sprinkling salt all over the world , but it only lands in certain people and takes differing levels of roots.
Yes, I suppose it's like the ink blot test. People with their own worries and preoccupations can see many things. I can read poetry and I am astonished at what others miss. I can solve a differential equation by some clever method and extract immense delight. Or perhaps when I'm translating words from some long-dead author I have an eerie feeling of seizing upon the right meaning, as with a difficult crossword clue or anticipating a shrewd move in a complex chess variation. Wordless music also inspires - the violin theme in Schindler's List is hauntingly beautiful.
But the bible? I find it irritating to have people read chunks of the OT for they invariably sound silly. Perhaps Proverbs is fine, with its wise buried truths. But revelation?
Post #79
[Replying to post 78 by marco]
The bible is stunning in my view , I been reading it for over 50 years , and each of those years I have learned more , seen more , it grips me like no other book.
I have read hundreds of books, no more than two weeks reading on any of them; but I still have not read the whole bible. Its like a living book ,in my view.
The bible is stunning in my view , I been reading it for over 50 years , and each of those years I have learned more , seen more , it grips me like no other book.
I have read hundreds of books, no more than two weeks reading on any of them; but I still have not read the whole bible. Its like a living book ,in my view.
Post #80
Well, mickiel, it has not done you any harm, only a great deal of good. But, à chacun son goût, as Parisians might say. Some Muslims ( hafiz or hafiza) have memorised the entire Koran. They find their God's beauty written in it. I don't.mickiel wrote: [Replying to post 78 by marco]
The bible is stunning in my view , I been reading it for over 50 years , and each of those years I have learned more , seen more , it grips me like no other book.
I have read hundreds of books, no more than two weeks reading on any of them; but I still have not read the whole bible. Its like a living book ,in my view.
I have no idea in what way you can be gripped by early Genesis, by lists and lists of people begetting, by thousands and thousands slain, by tales of God interacting mysteriously with humans, and holding odd conversations, making up covenants with them that involve male genitalia..... you have to sit long on a rainy day to get something nice. And yes, you come across something as beautiful as:
The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen! Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in the streets of Askelon; lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph. Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away....
I prefer Dostoyevsky's fiction or the simplicity of the Book Thief or the Life of Pi or the Name of the Rose or the Little Prince or Dickens' oddly named catalogue of characters or the youthful Romeo betrayed by the god of love or Coleridge's Xanadu or Housman's Shropshire Lad or Tennyson's Arthur, speaking from the barge. If we want piety then Aeneas suffices or Francis Thompson's Hound of Heaven is interesting. And reading Horace's 2000 year-old wistful, Ah, Postumus, Postumus, the fleeting years are slipping away from us or Catullus's sadness at his brother's grave: atque in perpetuum frater ave atque vale (so for ever and ever, dear brother, hail and farewell) What a work of art is man, indeed!
My cares are for humanity. Go well.
