Does Humankind Have A Purpose?

[jgh7]

I googled this definition of purpose.

Purpose: the reason for which something is (1)done or (2)created or for which something (3)exists.

Certain things may seem to have a purpose. (1) The purpose of me doing jogging is to stay healthy and in shape. (2) The purpose of the original watch creator creating a watch is to have something to tell the time. (3) The purpose of reproductive organs' existence is to allow for reproduction.

Jogging is something others and I may do, a watch is something others or I may create, reproductive organs are something that form on their own and exist.

I can argue it is 100% true that so long as I'm not lying, the purpose of my jogging is to stay healthy and in shape. Other people have different true purposes for their own jogging. But it is impossible to assert that one single purpose for jogging applies to everyone.

I can not argue that the purpose of a watch is solely to tell time. Someone's purpose for a watch could be to look fashionable in addition to telling time. People decide what the purpose of a watch is for them, just the same as jogging. But maybe you could still argue that the ultimate objective purpose of the watch is to tell time. This is what it was originally created to do, what the culmination of its parts and attributes produce when working properly, and that is outside of anyone's opinion.

Reproductive organs are not created by anyone; they form on their own. One could still argue that what they do is their purpose. They allow for reproduction so that is their purpose, and this is true outside of anyone's opinions.

Now that we've gone over this, let's move on to the topic. Does humankind have a purpose? If God created us, then we are like watches, possibly built with a specific purpose from the creator. If we simply evolved into existence, then perhaps our purpose can be found similar to how reproductive organs' purpose are found.

But there's one final comparison to make: stars. Do stars have a purpose? Well, they certainly allow for things like solar systems to exist. We can argue that the purpose of the sun is to give us warmth and sustain us and our solar system. But ultimately, I believe a star does not have a purpose. It simply exists. If this is still unacceptable, then maybe think of an asteroid or something else that simply exists.

Do we have a purpose? Does our purpose stem from our original creator's intent (like watches), does it stem from the results of what we do and accomplish (like reproductive organs), or do we not have a purpose and simply exist (like stars)?

[FinalEnigma]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Here I am again to throw logic wrenches and see if I can accomplish anything.

Now that we've gone over this, let's move on to the topic. Does humankind have a purpose? If God created us, then we are like watches, possibly built with a specific purpose from the creator.

Even if we assume that we are created, then with no additional information, we have no basis to assume that we necessarily have a purpose, and a purpose which has not been already fulfilled.

thoughts on non-existent or unhelpful purposes assuming we were created:

1) What if we are art?

Does a painting have a purpose? Does a sonata have a purpose? or a statue?
clay in the hands of a potter is a popular analogy.

Offhand, I would imagine that the purpose of art is expression. but that's the purpose of creating the art, not the purpose of the art itself. I think that's an important distinction.

some art has a political or commentary purpose, but not all art. much Art's purpose isn't to DO anything. to be? to have been?


2) What if we are an experiment?

if a mad scientist builds a robot with working artificial intelligence, and then simply observes it to see what it will do, what is the robot's (and it's AI's) purpose?

at this point, I would think that the robot's purpose is simply to do. or perhaps to be. a purpose like this does not seem to be particularly inspirational.

3) what if the purpose is in the creating?

Sometimes I create things; little software programs, space ships in computer games, etc. Sometimes these things have no purpose.

For example, earlier today and last Friday I wrote a computer program to beat people at rock paper scissors. You play several times, and it analyzes your choices to be able to predict your next choice and beat you (with no starting data, it begins winning more rounds than losing against after 15 or 20 rounds, and by 30 rounds, it's got a lead in total wins against me).

What is the purpose of this program? well, it doesn't have one. Yes, I designed it with the capability of learning how a person plays rock paper scissors so that it can beat them, but that's not it's purpose.
It's purpose was in it's creation, because I am fascinated by AI and digital data processing, and I find it enjoyable to think through how such things work and plan how to recreate them. Perhaps next I will make it like winning in the long term, and teach it to behave in whatever way causes it to win the most times over the long term by keeping players engaged.

But the program itself? It has no purpose. whatever purpose it may have had has already been fulfilled.

4) what if we are like children?

I'm a father and attempting to analogize to a creator God. I'm thinking back to when my wife and I decided to have a child, and I'm trying to decide if I could say there is an explicit purpose to my daughter. It feels very incoherent to imagine that way (not an argument, just an observation).

If I had to declare a purpose for my daughter from the perspective that she was created by my wife and I, I think would have to say 'to be loved'. At least, that's the best I can come up with now.

What if our purpose is something similar? if God created us 'to be loved', then that seems like quite an unhelpful purpose.

5) What if our purpose is to find a purpose?

Continuing with the parental analogy, we don't assign a purpose to children at birth. We leave it up to them to find the purpose for which to devote their efforts. I would have many difficulties with assigning a purpose to an individual without their input.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Here I am again to throw logic wrenches and see if I can accomplish anything.

Now that we've gone over this, let's move on to the topic. Does humankind have a purpose? If God created us, then we are like watches, possibly built with a specific purpose from the creator.

Even if we assume that we are created, then with no additional information, we have no basis to assume that we necessarily have a purpose, and a purpose which has not been already fulfilled.

thoughts on non-existent or unhelpful purposes assuming we were created:

1) What if we are art?

I'm not sure about you, but I am possessed of consciousness and self awareness. Statues and paintings are not so constituted. Are you really trying to make the point that we are merely "God's" paintings? This post, perhaps more than any other I have seen on this forum, demonstrates the absurdity of this "creator god" nonsense which relegates us to the status of mere paint on canvas.

I am grateful for an opportunity to put this ridiculous notion of a god, independent of a character created by man, into perspective. To imagine we conscious beings are mere works of art exposes the absurdity of this ancient superstition in a way I could not have imagined.

We can start all over with the basics. Cogito ergo sum. I am able to think; therefore, I exist as a conscious being. This much we know. Whether or not Gods and Goblins exist, we know not.

[FinalEnigma]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Here I am again to throw logic wrenches and see if I can accomplish anything.

Now that we've gone over this, let's move on to the topic. Does humankind have a purpose? If God created us, then we are like watches, possibly built with a specific purpose from the creator.

Even if we assume that we are created, then with no additional information, we have no basis to assume that we necessarily have a purpose, and a purpose which has not been already fulfilled.

thoughts on non-existent or unhelpful purposes assuming we were created:

1) What if we are art?

I'm not sure about you, but I am possessed of consciousness and self awareness. Statues and paintings are not so constituted. Are you really trying to make the point that we are merely "God's" paintings? This post, perhaps more than any other I have seen on this forum, demonstrates the absurdity of this "creator god" nonsense which relegates us to the status of mere paint on canvas.

I am grateful for an opportunity to put this ridiculous notion of a god, independent of a character created by man, into perspective. To imagine we conscious beings are mere works of art exposes the absurdity of this ancient superstition in a way I could not have imagined.

We can start all over with the basics. Cogito ergo sum. I am able to think; therefore, I exist as a conscious being. This much we know. Whether or not Gods and Goblins exist, we know not.

That's a bizarrely aggressive argument for just a question, nor does it particularly address the the question; nothing you've said disproves the idea that humans are art.

The fact that we are thinking entities does not prove that we could not be some form of artistic expression. If there existed an entity which was sufficiently capable, then it obviously could create conscious art. declaring it to be absurd does nothing to disprove my, err...question.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 42 by Danmark]

Even if we assume that we are created, then with no additional information, we have no basis to assume that we necessarily have a purpose, and a purpose which has not been already fulfilled.

thoughts on non-existent or unhelpful purposes assuming we were created:

1) What if we are art?

I'm not sure about you, but I am possessed of consciousness and self awareness.

I'm not sure about you, but I assume that FinalEnigma is possessed of consciousness and awareness. You both might be works of art possessed of consciousness and self awareness.

Statues and paintings are not so constituted. Are you really trying to make the point that we are merely "God's" paintings?

It makes sense if one believes in a "creator god".

This post, perhaps more than any other I have seen on this forum, demonstrates the absurdity of this "creator god" nonsense which relegates us to the status of mere paint on canvas.

I don't see how an all powerful all knowing creator god could NOT imbue his creations ( works of art or "paintings", if you wish ) with consciousness and self-awareness.

I am grateful for an opportunity to put this ridiculous notion of a god, independent of a character created by man, into perspective. To imagine we conscious beings are mere works of art exposes the absurdity of this ancient superstition in a way I could not have imagined.

We can start all over with the basics. Cogito ergo sum. I am able to think; therefore, I exist as a conscious being. This much we know.

Some philosophers dispute that we DO, actually,"know" this.

Whether or not Gods and Goblins exist, we know not.

And yet, here we are in debate with those who claim to know.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 41 by FinalEnigma]

I'll take your child analogy a giant leap further to illustrate how it could work in God's hands. Let's say eugenics allow complete control of our future child. Someone chooses to genetically modify their future child to be the perfect swimmer. Their genes are designed for them to like swimming, to have a perfect body for swimming, and to have ultimate instinctual and potential knowledge of how to swim optimally.

It can be argued that this person is literally designed to be a swimmer.

Now, God basically has the full power of eugenics when he created humans. But obviously we're all completely unique. So what is the one universal thing he created us all with? Well, I would argue that it's the ability to think and to have emotions.

It can be argued that we are all designed to think and have emotions.

Can our purpose be related to this in some way?

This is as far as my argument goes, and it's a very weak argument and I concede that I no longer believe it. I believe purpose is dependent on someone's will. There is no such thing as objective purpose; it's illogical.

I was hoping that I might prove my suspiscions wrong when I made this thread. But all it has done is convince me that my suspiscions are right, and that there is no such thing as objective purpose. I am content with this now though; it no longer troubles me.

[FinalEnigma]

[Replying to post 41 by FinalEnigma]


This is as far as my argument goes, and it's a very weak argument and I concede that I no longer believe it. I believe purpose is dependent on someone's will. There is no such thing as objective purpose; it's illogical.

I had debated going into that, because I think that's the logical ultimate conclusion, but I hadn't because it would be a difficult argument to make well.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 45 by jgh7]

Now, God basically has the full power of eugenics when he created humans. But obviously we're all completely unique. So what is the one universal thing he created us all with? Well, I would argue that it's the ability to think and to have emotions.

One other thing we have in common is morality. We have an innate sense of right and wrong. Because of the effects of sin on the human race that knowledge is imperfect but if you examine all of the different moral codes that exists you will find similarities between them. For example the Golden Rule is believed, if not practiced, by people in all societies.

[dio9]

Everything has a purpose, whatever it may be , and life reveals to some that purpose . The question we should ask is not do we have a purpose , but rather do I know what my purpose is ? There are varying degrees of purpose be they economic, political, spiritual, ethical, moral, emotional, intellectual there are many possible purposes, choose one. My purpose now is to be a parent, and I can't think of anything more fulfilling emotionally intellectually morally and spiritually.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 47 by puddleglum]

Humans are primates:

Now, God basically has the full power of eugenics when he created humans. But obviously we're all completely unique. So what is the one universal thing he created us all with? Well, I would argue that it's the ability to think and to have emotions.

Do you mean that humans share similar characteristics with primates?

One other thing we have in common is morality. We have an innate sense of right and wrong. Because of the effects of sin on the human race that knowledge is imperfect but if you examine all of the different moral codes that exists you will find similarities between them. For example the Golden Rule is believed, if not practiced, by people in all societies.

I agree.

Humans have brains. Humans also have feet, legs, eyes, arms, livers, ears, kidneys, sexual organs, skin, and skeletons. The list of similarities with primates goes on and on.

It's been shown that all kinds of primates have morality. It's been shown that primates can think and have emotions. Are humans primates?

Yes, humans ARE primates.

"Besides similar anatomy and behavior, there is DNA evidence. It confirms that humans are primates and that modern humans and chimpanzees diverged from a common ancestor between 8 and 6 million years ago. There is only about a 1.2 percent genetic difference between modern humans and chimpanzees throughout much of their genetic code."

http://humanorigins.si.edu/resources/ho ... primates-0