Is altruism impossible?

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jgh7

Is altruism impossible?

Post #1

Post by jgh7 »

Okay, so here's a possible definition of altruism that I googled:

the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.

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I've heard suggested that the desire to do good is based solely on selfishness. We do good because the original motivation is to make ourselves feel good.

This would make true altruism impossible in humans. What do you think? Is true altruism impossible for humans. Do our desires to do good ultimately boil back to selfish desires of wanting to feel good?

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Ancient of Years
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Re: Is altruism impossible?

Post #11

Post by Ancient of Years »

Artie wrote:
Ancient of Years wrote:
Artie wrote:
Ancient of Years wrote:Cooperation is not altruism. It is reciprocity
Reciprocal altruism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism
This does not fit the definition of altruism given by the OP.

"the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others"

Reciprocal altruisn is defined (in your link) as:

"a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time."

That is not disinterested or selfless.
I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think a vampire bat shares food with starving roost mates because he consciously expects them to return the favor in the future? If he doesn't consciously know that this behavior increases his own chances of survival isn't he "selfless"?
I did not introduce the term 'reciprocal altruism'. I only responded to it to show that what is meant by 'altruism' in that term is not the same as in the OP.

Earlier I referred to "the natural urge to protect shared genes (family) or shared gene propagators (spouses)". This urge seems to be genetic in various species. Sharing food etc. among genetically close individuals will help to keep that genetic package in existence. A package that includes that trait could benefit, evolutionary speaking, from it. But it is a balance between survival of the individual who has this exact genetic package and others who have similar genes. How much sharing, protecting etc. is appropriate depends on the species and the environment that shaped them. So one should not expect identical behavior in all species.

Humans have (a) a need for community to survive, (b) a need to care for children well beyond what is the case in most species and (c) the ability to make agreements, explicit or implicit, involving deferred reciprocity. This makes both reciprocity and charity common human traits, although not uniquely human. But 'pure' altruism as defined in the OP is not a survival oriented trait and will tend to defeat itself.
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Re: Is altruism impossible?

Post #12

Post by wannabe »

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

To feel good one has to immerse themselves in it ( good ). And to do good achieves this. The reward is a blessing you learn to live with and it represents one less spot of darkness.

So to say a selfish desire without knowledge of the consequences is a more righteous expression than to understand the great outcomes , then maybe disinterested fits the op.

But people are not ignorant of what goes on around them and stepping out of their comfort zones restricts their altruistic abilities , but once unrestricted will create pleasant exposure. Before and after.

However for the sake of " selfish desire of wanting to feel good", I would say ones own experience of what makes them feel good would be the fuelling source of such desires.

Desire good and it may happen .
Desire bad and it will happen.

Good always wins over bad in the desire poll.
So where does evil come from ? ( sorry off topic )

I think today , altruism is separated back to a desire - " if only " , (because the other side desires to ," receive to receive" , rather than " give to receive ". ) remains abundant still today. And monetary frameworks, contribute to a breakdown of a true altruistic state.

However if you could stop a spider from spinning , would it not still have the blueprint.
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Re: Is altruism impossible?

Post #13

Post by marco »

If someone lays down his life for someone else, receiving does not come into the act.

However, if we discount the act as altruistic by according the actor some additional motivation, such as thinking of the post mortem reward the family will get, then we are making our proposition so extensive that it becomes meaningless. If we say All acts are bad and extend our definition of bad for every circumstance offered as counterexample then the proposition is bogus.

In discussing altruistic acts we are in danger of making our starting proposition meaningless. It is not normal to apply an intimate examination of psychological minutiae to determine whether an epithet fits an action. In the world where we live and die there are many acts of altruism and the world is better for them.

If we are to give meaning to the proposition that altruism is impossible it would be to examine cynicism and agree that as long as cynics exist, altruism will not.

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