Pure Secular Materialism Versus Christianity?

[Divine Insight]

Another thread entitled "Is Atheism worth a tinker's dam?" got me to thinking about the value of a worldview of Pure Secular Materialism. Or a Naturalistic worldview that doesn't imagine invisible Gods, or unproven eternal souls, etc.

Many religious people argue that if we just die when we die then life is worthless and meaningless. So for them, the idea of having their ego perpetuated for all of eternity appears to be the only thing of value to them. Yet ironically, they preach of a far greater love. That we are to love others more than we love ourselves. Of course Jesus never really taught this at all. To the contrary Jesus taught that people are to love others as they love themselves. So even Jesus never placed anyone higher than the personal ego.

But what if reality is a pure secular materialistic world? What if when our ego dies, it dies and that's that. Does this make life worthless just because our personal selfish egos won't be perpetuated for all of eternity?

Should we then all just commit suicide and give up on life entirely?

Wouldn't that be the epitome of selfishness?

To claim that life is worthless and meaningless if our egos aren't going to be resurrected after death and preserved for all of eternity is actually the most selfish worldview possible.

Pure Secular Materialism, on the other hand, requires a totally selfless view of the world, everything we do should not be for our ego, but for the perpetuation of mankind in general. And not even just mankind but for all living creatures.

Pure Secular Materialism can actually be a worldview that has the highest morality possible. A genuine love of life and of others, with total selflessness in terms of worrying about having our own personal egos perpetuated for eternity.

It would seem to me that a worldview of Pure Secular Materialism is actually on higher moral ground than a religion like Christianity that focuses entirely on the salvation of the ego leading to an imagined eternal life of the ego.

A worldview of Pure Secular Materialism requires that we focus on the perpetuation of life in general, and not on the perpetuation of our own personal ego.

Questions for debate or consideration:

How is Pure Secular Materialism not worth a Tinker's Dam to anyone who isn't totally absorbed with the preservation of their own ego?

How can Christianity claim to be about higher moral values when all it amounts to is an obsession with the dream of having ones ego preserved for eternity?

[Donray]

Of course the only reason to be a Christian or Muslim is to not go to hell. That means getting to heaven. Of course God never had a heaven or hell and these were invented by the unknown people that wrote the new testament.

God would have very followers if not for the religious leaders telling the flock (you know that implies SHEEP) that they must worship God and contribute to the religious leaders living.

So yes, egos for wanting an afterlife are the reason for the Christian religion.

[Wissing]

Pure Secular Materialism sounds a lot like Marx's Dialectic Materialism. I think this worldview sounds very humanistic and selfless in theory, but does not work in practice. The worldview gained traction around 1850 in Germany, I think, and its fruits (I mean when it was applied practically) came in the early 1900's with Lenin's revolution.

Christians here may find it interesting to read something I wrote in the Holy Huddle sub-forum awhile back, relating to some of the points made in this thread. For instance, the idea that the only reason to be a Christian is to go to heaven, the idea that the "here and now" don't matter, etc. On the contrary, the Christian understanding of "now" and "then" differ substantially, if not theoretically, from that of other worldviews. Two are discussed here:
Every Now and Then

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 12 by Wissing]

I read over your post very briefly. I only read about the first six of your theological idea and found them all to be unconvincing in terms of actually representing the Biblical paradigm.

However, I do agree completely with the following statement of your opening paragraph:

the present life is of utmost concern - not the cares of the flesh, but the responsibilities of good tenants.

I'm 100% on board with this. However, I totally disagree that the Bible actually represents "good tenets". You may have actually meant "Tenants" meaning that we are supposed to be good inhibitors of the earth. But we can hardly be good tenants if we don't also have good tenets. So I'm going to speak to the latter.

I do agree that Jesus himself (for the most part) appears to be in support of fairly "good tenets". However, I hold that a large reason for this is because of his rejection of the "bad tenets" demanded by the Old Testament Law. The Old Testament Law commands that we are to execute people for all manner of "immoral behavior" including behavior such as working on the Sabbath, which I find quite difficult to see anything "immoral" about.

The point I'm making is that Christianity cannot stand on the teachings of Christ alone. It simply can't because Jesus is supposed to be the Son of Yahweh who did not come to change the laws of old, yet that's precisely what he did. And in Matthew 5:17-18 he even demands that he did not come to change the laws and that not one jot or tittle shall pass from law until heaven and earth pass.

So there is a huge problem with Christianity concerning what even entail, "good tenets". It is totally unclear what is moral or immoral in Christianity. At best it's a religion of extreme mixed messages. At worst it can actually be used to support many immoral behaviors, including religious bigotry, bigotry toward others in the name of "sinful behavior", etc. Not to mention Christianity has historically fought tooth and nail against science and the advancement of knowledge. Even today there still exists many Christians who argue against the science of evolution, and would even like to see Christian dogma taught in our schools in place of evolution.

There are serious problems with the religion that even the people who support it cannot settle among themselves. Even the single main divisions of Catholicism and Protestantism are never going to make amends. And this is even more clear when we acknowledge that the Protestantisms cannot even agree with each other on what amounts to "good tenets" (or sound moral principles)

And we can't be "good tenants" of this life if we aren't even in agreement with each other on what constitutes "good tenets" (or morality)

Also getting back to your main point:

the present life is of utmost concern - not the cares of the flesh, but the responsibilities of good tenants.

Let's go back to the idea being good "tenants" again (because I'm not sure whether you actually meant "tenants" or "tenets".

If we are to be good "tenants" (residents of this life) then what is it that we are supposed to be the "tenants" of (in other words what are we supposed to be overseeing?) Planet Earth? The survival and future of the Human Species?'

I would hold that Christianity actually causes people to think that neither of these things are very important. Especially the millions of Christians who believe that Christ will be returning to earth in some great "rapture" in the near future.

Worrying about maintaining Planet Earth into a far future is simply not compatible with that ideology. If Christ is real, then the demise of this earth is of no importance. When Christ comes back in the rapture and tosses all the evil people into hell, he'll just wave his magic wand and the Earth will be refreshed to be like new again. After all Christians are taught that with God all things are possible.

So worrying about maintaining the physical condition of our planet is simply not compatible with an expected rapture where Christ comes to earth and takes care of everything for us with his supernatural magic. In fact, many Christians actually believe that the deterioration of conditions on earth is precisely what is required before the rapture can take place, so they actually would like to see things get bad. The quicker the better! It's just means a sooner rapture to them.

And like Christopher Hitchens used to say quite frequently, "If you don't believe in the Rapture, then you don't truly believe in Christianity". This is definitely a huge part of this religion.

So long-term maintenance of Planet Earth is simply not compatible with the ideologies of this religion.

The same is true if we believe that we are the "tenants" (or caretakers) of life itself, or the human specifics. In fact, in Christianity to think that we are the caretakers of the human species would be blaspheme. We are supposed to be God's Children, and HE is the caretaker of the human species not us. Our destiny is in HIS HANDS, not ours.

So Christianity is not compatible with any long-term ideas of maintaining the human species or "God Forbid" trying to populate the galaxy as whole. Why would any Christian want to go to Mars for example? Jesus is supposed to be coming back to Earth, not Mars.

Taking any initiative to think about the long-term future of mankind in Christianity would be blaspheme. Christ is going to come back and take care of that himself. He always has a PLAN for the long-term. This is what Christianity is all about.

So Christianity presents problems even if we're talking about being "good tenants" verses having "good tenets". In the former case, Christians are expecting a rapture. In the latter case, well, the Bible doesn't teach "good tenets" to begin with. In fact, it actually teaches horrible morality UNTIL Jesus came and try to break away from that, but then in Matthew 5:17-18 he totally blows it by proclaiming that he didn't come to change the laws anyway.

So I just don't see where Christianity is compatible with Pure Secular Materialism. Christians are counting on the rapture, either occurring in their lifetime, or them being resurrected when it does happen. And in the meantime they have very bad tenets (i.e. moral principles) by viewing the Bible as the "Word of God".

[marco]

Christians here may find it interesting to read something I wrote in the Holy Huddle sub-forum awhile back,

Yes, I read it. Brevity should be one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but he possibly forgot to give it. You say, with a pleasing poetical touch:

"Heaven is not a distant, speculative ideal, but a very present ideal. It can be felt and seen and heard and touched and smelled."

You have mounted a veritable fantasy horse if you are able to smell an ideal. Of course Keats was able to say: 'I cannot see what flowers are at my feet' and announce that his nightingale "was not born for death, immortal bird."

These are enjoyable sentiments, but, like yours, bits of fantasy.

They let us smile but do nothing for our progress through life. God is silent. As for Jesus allowing people to touch him after he rose from death, I am reminded of some lines in Macbeth:
"It is a tale told by an idiot.... signifying nothing."

Your lovely words are scattered like wasted flowers on a grave; they do nothing to bring the corpse to life.

[Wissing]

I meant tenants, not tenets. Yes, God is in charge - but he has given us dominion over the earth. In the parable of the tenants, he was referring to the Jews as tenants. But the tenants killed all the master's messengers, and then they killed his son. So he put someone else in charge. I believe that modern Christians have inherited that responsibility.

Our "tenets" are the problem, not the solution. Tenets have loopholes. We must live by the Spirit, not the law. The difference between those can be found in the book of Galatians.

Humans need a way to justify themselves. Some of us do this by our morals. Some do it by our intellect. Some do it by our hard work.

The only real way to be justified is by faith in Christ. For those with superior intellect, work ethic, or moral righteousness, this is bad news: it would mean they did all that work for nothing. But there are some whose intellect diminishes and fails them due to disease, accident, or age. There are some who labor for years to achieve a goal that never comes to pass, despite tremendous effort, simply because of economic factors out of their control. There are some who commit sins they never wanted to commit, but simply have no choice in the matter. For those who are willing to admit their faults, there is hope in Jesus. They can be healed, they can be forgiven, and they can be empowered to improve.

But if you think you can justify yourself by Marxist ideals, you have a lot of work to do. And brevity is not what mankind will demand of you. Mankind will demand you go to the ends of the earth to justify yourself, and then he will sell your job overseas. There is no hope in these secular philosophies. I don't know what else to say. Take it or leave it, it's up to you.

[Divine Insight]

Humans need a way to justify themselves.

Justify themselves to whom?

The only real way to be justified is by faith in Christ.

Says who?

For those with superior intellect, work ethic, or moral righteousness, this is bad news:

People of superior intellect most likely aren't concerned with having to justify themselves to ancient fables about a jealous male-chauvinistic, clearly immoral boogieman who would supposedly throw a temper tantrum and hurt them if they don't become as immoral as he demands.

But if you think you can justify yourself by Marxist ideals, you have a lot of work to do.

I don't. In fact, I've never even mentioned or considered "Marxist ideals" that has been your gross misrepresentation of my position, and I totally suspect that it was intentional as I had never mentioned "Marxist ideals" anywhere.

And brevity is not what mankind will demand of you. Mankind will demand you go to the ends of the earth to justify yourself, and then he will sell your job overseas. There is no hope in these secular philosophies. I don't know what else to say. Take it or leave it, it's up to you.

I couldn't give a hoot what "Mankind" might demand of me. That also was not part of my philosophy but your gross misrepresentation of it.

Selling jobs overseas? What in the world are you even talking about? Where have I ever suggested that capitalism is a good idea?

You are talking about political positions that even many Christian theists strongly support.

If you believe in Christ why shouldn't you be selling jobs oversees? Not only should you be giving them your job, but you should be sending them any money and possessions you already own. According to Jesus you shouldn't even be making any money. Remember God feeds the birds! And surely he would do far more for you. So why are you even working? God and Jesus are supposed to be taking care of you. All you need to do is ask in Jesus name and anything you ask for he shall give to you. So why would you be concerned about jobs?

If you're working at a job depending on that income then you clearly don't have much faith in Jesus or his teachings. God should be feeding you like he feeds the birds. And Jesus has already instructed you to give all your money and possessions to the poor.

So if you are dependent upon the monetary income from a job, then how can you claim to be following Jesus? Didn't he say that you cannot serve two masters?

[jgh7]

Secular Materialism can have its perversions just as Christianity can. Pure selfishness is not solely dependent on there being an afterlife.

Both secular materialism and Christianity can have high moral values. Hoping for your conciousness (and others) to continue after death does not have to affect your care for others in this life.