Deep thinking

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Waterfall
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Deep thinking

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #131

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 129 by Divine Insight]

I appreciate your comments. Just to clear up a point about what Christians believe about salvation, all evangelical denominations that I know believe that salvation is not by works but by "grace through faith" in Christ. According to this doctrine, no one can possibly live up to God's standards, that is, to be "good enough" to get to heaven, thus their need for Christ.

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #132

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 130 by Monta]

Thanks for your comments. IF the God of the Bible is real, he is certainly smarter than we, but that's a huge if. The main point I was trying to make is that this so-called God commands people to make children who will likely spend eternity in Hell. Is this a smart thing to do?

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #133

Post by Waterfall »

amortalman wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Waterfall]

I think you've brought far too many questions for a single post as your namesake implies. My head is swimming. Personally, it would take me about 100 pages to even scratch the surface of what you've put on the table.

Nevertheless, you have posed some deep theological and philosophical questions and some questions that are, well, in my opinion very shallow and near meaningless.

I would like to respond briefly to a couple of points. I'll start with a few questions. Do you value your own life? Are you glad that you were born? I have to wonder! If you find some joy and pleasure in life certainly you would think others would, too.

Why do atheists bring children into the world? Do you really need an afterlife to appreciate this life? If this life is all there is, it is more than enough. I find many pleasures and wonderment in life without believing in the Heaven and Hell that the Bible espouses. Life is wonderful even with all the pains. There's beauty in life but sometimes you have to search for it.

The questions of whether Christians should bring children into the world is another matter. The Bible commands it. God said, "be fruitful and multiply." Then, Matthew 7:13 - 14 clearly says that many will be condemned and few will be saved. So, according to "God's word" most of the world's population past, present, and future will be condemned to Hell. If this is God's justice it horribly violates the very meaning of the word. So, when you are born, chances are you'll be one of the condemned from choosing the wrong religion, or having never heard of a religion, or because of unbelief.

I do hope you can get your many questions answered to your satisfaction. To me, the world is exactly the way it should be if there were no god(s). Naturalism answers many difficult questions of life the Bible only confuses. Of course, it raises a few questions of its own. But that's the spice of life. Discovery is a most beautiful thing.

I think the things we have talk about in this thread can be to some help to others.

I am happy that I am alive (existing), but if there is nothing after death, then I would prefer to not have been born at all...5 second on this planet is not something that makes sence to me...there is to mush suffering going on here...how many people will suffer before things gets better? What did they get out of all that suffering? A ticket to nowhere? Thank you for all your suffering...now...go back to sleep...disappear...

It just doesn't make sence to me. And that is just one problem. Because I don´t wanner lose anybody. So even if there was peace on earth there would still be a problem.

I understand that we shouldn´t say something exist if it doesn't exist...we shouldn´t say there is people on mars if there is no people on mars. If there is no indications to life on mars, then there is no reason for us to talk about life on mars.

Do we have any indications that there is life after death? We have the stories about Jesus...we have a missing body and we have Jesus showing himself to his disciples, so...

The missing body is not the interesting part here...because somebody could have stolen the body...but there is nobody (human) that could have walk trough the walls and played the role of Jesus.

If Jesus body just had disappeared and nothing more...then we would not have had those stories...unless we will call them all liars...that they just invented things.

I don´t think that is fair to say.

The stories have gone wild, but I think it is fair to say that something happent.

But what happent?

Here I will point to this book...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

In this book we get another story about what happent (a more down to earth story).

Is this story true? The only way it can be true is if things happent like it says it happent...but we can´t go back in time and check it out, so...what are we to do?

There is a description of the universe that we could investigate (or the astronomers could) and if it could be verified then we would have solid evidence that the medium was in contact with something real. To me it sounds great if this book is telling the truth.

Is everything in orbit around something? To me it sounds just right...because everything should be in orbit around something...one big starsystem.

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #134

Post by Divine Insight »

amortalman wrote: [Replying to post 129 by Divine Insight]

I appreciate your comments. Just to clear up a point about what Christians believe about salvation, all evangelical denominations that I know believe that salvation is not by works but by "grace through faith" in Christ. According to this doctrine, no one can possibly live up to God's standards, that is, to be "good enough" to get to heaven, thus their need for Christ.
How do you square that with Matthew 7:21?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.�

Also if no one can live up to God's standards then why in the world would Jesus tell people to do precisely that?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Did Jesus not realize that what he was telling people to do is impossible? :-k
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Re: Deep thinking

Post #135

Post by Monta »

amortalman wrote: [Replying to post 130 by Monta]

Thanks for your comments. IF the God of the Bible is real, he is certainly smarter than we, but that's a huge if. The main point I was trying to make is that this so-called God commands people to make children who will likely spend eternity in Hell. Is this a smart thing to do?
Hell is only for hellish people.
I am not going there why should anybody else?

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #136

Post by amortalman »

Divine Insight wrote:
amortalman wrote: [Replying to post 129 by Divine Insight]

I appreciate your comments. Just to clear up a point about what Christians believe about salvation, all evangelical denominations that I know believe that salvation is not by works but by "grace through faith" in Christ. According to this doctrine, no one can possibly live up to God's standards, that is, to be "good enough" to get to heaven, thus their need for Christ.
How do you square that with Matthew 7:21?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.�

Also if no one can live up to God's standards then why in the world would Jesus tell people to do precisely that?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Did Jesus not realize that what he was telling people to do is impossible? :-k
As a Christian, I had no problem with Matt. 7:21. There were many then and more now who make shallow confessions of faith or who are sidetracked into a false religion. One who believes on the finished work of Christ on the cross will be saved and therefore "do the will of the Father". Works follow faith. Works are the result of faith not the other way around (Eph. 2: 8-9). According to my Christian upbringing, one cannot work their way to heaven else Christ died in vain.

Your question is appropriate - "Did Jesus not realize that what he was telling people to do is impossible?" Exactly. What Jesus was saying is that without being hidden in him through faith (perfection) it is impossible to be saved because it's impossible to be perfect through works.

Again, I'm arguing as I believed before I came to realize that something is wrong with a document (the Bible) that has been so open to so many interpretations. If God couldn't make it clear how does he expect us to?

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #137

Post by amortalman »

Monta wrote:
amortalman wrote: [Replying to post 130 by Monta]

Thanks for your comments. IF the God of the Bible is real, he is certainly smarter than we, but that's a huge if. The main point I was trying to make is that this so-called God commands people to make children who will likely spend eternity in Hell. Is this a smart thing to do?
Hell is only for hellish people.
I am not going there why should anybody else?
Well, I don't know what exactly you mean by "hellish people". I suppose you mean terribly cruel and hateful people. But that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we're all hellish people born into sin and on our way to hell. If you're unfortunate enough to be born in a society that does not teach that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation, or if you reject Christ for any of a thousand logical reasons, then you're going to hell forever.

Also, according to the Bible, hellish people are going to be with Jesus every day. All they have to do is receive Christ before they die like Jeffrey Daumer did in prison. On the other hand, good, moral people are being sent to hell for reasons I mentioned above.

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #138

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to Waterfall in post #1]

Are we not all in the making ;)



I have been engaged in a conversation here in denmark and would like to hear your thoughts...

I wrote this:
If you think life is temporary, then it would not be "nice" of you to put children into the world, that you know do not want a temporary life? There are people who do not want to be born on such a basis and that makes things a little problematic? How to sort them from the rest?
It should be said that my "opponent" has admitted that most people wants to live forever, so...

How can we make the world a better place for everybody :D



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Re: Deep thinking

Post #139

Post by Tcg »

Waterfall wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:14 pm
If you think life is temporary, then it would not be "nice" of you to put children into the world, that you know do not want a temporary life?

Your friend forever

Waterfall
If it is true that people do not want a temporary life it would mean that they value the life they have. If this is the case wouldn't we conclude that life is in some way valuable?

If we can agree that it is, the length of life wouldn't change that. We would be denying others the chance to experience a valuable life if we choose not to have children.

This of course speaks of averages. Some lives are so miserable no one would want to live them no matter how long or short.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #140

Post by Waterfall »

Tcg wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:06 am
Waterfall wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:14 pm
If you think life is temporary, then it would not be "nice" of you to put children into the world, that you know do not want a temporary life?

Your friend forever

Waterfall
If it is true that people do not want a temporary life it would mean that they value the life they have. If this is the case wouldn't we conclude that life is in some way valuable?

If we can agree that it is, the length of life wouldn't change that. We would be denying others the chance to experience a valuable life if we choose not to have children.

This of course speaks of averages. Some lives are so miserable no one would want to live them no matter how long or short.


Tcg
If you think life is temporary, would it then be "nice" of you to put children into the world, that you know do not want a temporary life? To me a temporary life is not worse living and I would prefer not to be born at all if that was the case, so if you think life is temporary, then how to sort me from the rest? I think many - if not us all - would take that position after some deep thinking...



Let us give them something else to talk about ;-)

Your friend forever

Waterfall

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