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Waterfall
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Deep thinking

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

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Post #101

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: Don´t you have to read the book to get a good understanding of it all?
If I have to read a book that wasn't written until after 1908 in order to understand what Jesus was all about, then Jesus most certainly was indeed a failure no matter what his mission might have been,

And this is especially true if it is important in any way that we understand what's in this book that wasn't written until after 1908.
Waterfall wrote: Where am I going with all this...

How can the universe be an accident? Is it a coincidence that it exist? Or was it a possibility? How can we say that heaven isn´t a possibility? Something that also exist? Why should it not exist? Because it is far out? Eternal life? We know that the source is eternal...right? Why should the source not choose an eternal body...and then experience life that way? What can I do? What can I create?
The question isn't whether or not a heaven "could" exist. The question is why we should think that it might exist.

The Bible is clearly false. There can be no doubt about it. The Old Testament alone shoots itself in the foot countless times with extreme self-contradictions.

Nothing Jesus could do in the New Testament could repair the failed Old Testament. Also, Jesus has no authority if he's not the virgin-born only begotten Son of Yahweh. That's the very foundation of the idea that Jesus had divine knowledge in the first place. Not only that, but given that Jesus had divine knowledge, or was in any way divine himself, this actually violates many of the things in the tales about him. That very premise introduces self-contradictions in the most extreme way.

So just as Jesus can't repair the self-contradictions of the Old Testament, neither could a book written after 1908 repair the self-contradictions associated with Jesus.

I'm sure the book has a lot of inviting things to say, but that doesn't make them true.

Not only that, but if this book references Jesus in any way, then you should be able to find everything you need in the Christian Gospels. If it's not there then Jesus was necessarily a failure and this book written in 1908 couldn't change that.

The question in this case isn't whether or not a heaven "could" exist. The question is whether or not this particular book could be a revelation about heaven. And the fact that it references Jesus as being important at all makes it an automatic failure. Because if Jesus was important, then this book wouldn't even be needed. :D

The Gospels of Jesus would stand on their own. No need for a spiritually revealed book in 1908 to clear up the failings of Jesus.
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Post #102

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: Don´t you have to read the book to get a good understanding of it all?
If I have to read a book that wasn't written until after 1908 in order to understand what Jesus was all about, then Jesus most certainly was indeed a failure no matter what his mission might have been,

And this is especially true if it is important in any way that we understand what's in this book that wasn't written until after 1908.
Waterfall wrote: Where am I going with all this...

How can the universe be an accident? Is it a coincidence that it exist? Or was it a possibility? How can we say that heaven isn´t a possibility? Something that also exist? Why should it not exist? Because it is far out? Eternal life? We know that the source is eternal...right? Why should the source not choose an eternal body...and then experience life that way? What can I do? What can I create?
The question isn't whether or not a heaven "could" exist. The question is why we should think that it might exist.

The Bible is clearly false. There can be no doubt about it. The Old Testament alone shoots itself in the foot countless times with extreme self-contradictions.

Nothing Jesus could do in the New Testament could repair the failed Old Testament. Also, Jesus has no authority if he's not the virgin-born only begotten Son of Yahweh. That's the very foundation of the idea that Jesus had divine knowledge in the first place. Not only that, but given that Jesus had divine knowledge, or was in any way divine himself, this actually violates many of the things in the tales about him. That very premise introduces self-contradictions in the most extreme way.

So just as Jesus can't repair the self-contradictions of the Old Testament, neither could a book written after 1908 repair the self-contradictions associated with Jesus.

I'm sure the book has a lot of inviting things to say, but that doesn't make them true.

Not only that, but if this book references Jesus in any way, then you should be able to find everything you need in the Christian Gospels. If it's not there then Jesus was necessarily a failure and this book written in 1908 couldn't change that.

The question in this case isn't whether or not a heaven "could" exist. The question is whether or not this particular book could be a revelation about heaven. And the fact that it references Jesus as being important at all makes it an automatic failure. Because if Jesus was important, then this book wouldn't even be needed. :D

The Gospels of Jesus would stand on their own. No need for a spiritually revealed book in 1908 to clear up the failings of Jesus.

Why has this book not been writtin before 1908? How could it? The devil had not return before that time...

The book Is about the devil and his return from the darknes...and its about many other things...Jesus life...and other peoples life...

With regard to Jesus...

What do you mean by failure?

He didn´t writte anything about his life...we just have stories about him...

Is there some truth to these stories?

Are you saying that it is not interesting for people (Christians and others) to read about Jesus...to get a story about him that is true?

Are people not interested in the past...history...what happen?

Why do you have a problem with a book there might be telling the truth about Jesus life?

Are you able to tell the truth about Jesus life? What was his mission? If this book is telling the truth about his mission...then I would like to hear what truth you can come up with based on the scripture...the same truth? Is that possible?

Stories can inspire people...we can learn a lot from stories...why shouldn´t we learn from this story?

With regard to heaven...

Because it is a necessity? If I can´t put children into the world without believing in heaven...then heaven must be a necessity...its the only thing that makes it possible for me to put children into the world...so...do I have reason to believe it is there? How can I live if its not there? Is there anything thats prevents it from being there? If there is nothing that prevents it from being there...then why should it not be there?

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Post #103

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: Why do you have a problem with a book there might be telling the truth about Jesus life?

Are you able to tell the truth about Jesus life? What was his mission? If this book is telling the truth about his mission...then I would like to hear what truth you can come up with based on the scripture...the same truth? Is that possible?
If Jesus mission was to get a message to mankind in general he most certainly failed. Most of mankind are not Christians who believe in the "message" from Jesus, and those who are disagree on what the message was in any case.

So if it was Jesus mission to get a message to mankind then Jesus failed miserably. It wouldn't even matter what the message was because he failed to make it clear. Apparently nobody knows what the message was, not even the most devout Christians can agree on that. :D

So in a nutshell can you briefly summarize what the book you are so excited about claims Jesus mission was?

And wouldn't that claim itself be nothing more than a drop in the ocean of the myriad of conflicting claims that other people have been making about Jesus for centuries.

What makes this book stand apart? I realize it claim to be revelation revealed to a medium, but I don't think that's uncommon in Christianity. Isn't Mormonism also based on some guy Joseph Smith who claims to have had a divine revelation too?

Aren't these kinds of claim fairly common in Christendom?

I'm pretty certain there are several guys living today who actually claim to be Jesus reincarnated. And as silly as this may sound they each actually have a fairly large flock of followers who believe that they are indeed Jesus reincarnated.

Wiki List of people who claimed to be Jesus reincarnated

And these are just people who claim to be Jesus himself. The list of people who wrote books like you are talking about is no doubt far longer.

Claiming to have divine knowledge or revelation is a popular human pastime. :D
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Post #104

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: Why do you have a problem with a book there might be telling the truth about Jesus life?

Are you able to tell the truth about Jesus life? What was his mission? If this book is telling the truth about his mission...then I would like to hear what truth you can come up with based on the scripture...the same truth? Is that possible?
If Jesus mission was to get a message to mankind in general he most certainly failed. Most of mankind are not Christians who believe in the "message" from Jesus, and those who are disagree on what the message was in any case.

So if it was Jesus mission to get a message to mankind then Jesus failed miserably. It wouldn't even matter what the message was because he failed to make it clear. Apparently nobody knows what the message was, not even the most devout Christians can agree on that. :D

So in a nutshell can you briefly summarize what the book you are so excited about claims Jesus mission was?

And wouldn't that claim itself be nothing more than a drop in the ocean of the myriad of conflicting claims that other people have been making about Jesus for centuries.

What makes this book stand apart? I realize it claim to be revelation revealed to a medium, but I don't think that's uncommon in Christianity. Isn't Mormonism also based on some guy Joseph Smith who claims to have had a divine revelation too?

Aren't these kinds of claim fairly common in Christendom?

I'm pretty certain there are several guys living today who actually claim to be Jesus reincarnated. And as silly as this may sound they each actually have a fairly large flock of followers who believe that they are indeed Jesus reincarnated.

Wiki List of people who claimed to be Jesus reincarnated

And these are just people who claim to be Jesus himself. The list of people who wrote books like you are talking about is no doubt far longer.

Claiming to have divine knowledge or revelation is a popular human pastime. :D
I will try and give you a brief summary.

But it will never be as good as reading the book.

Where do I start?

I will point to a conversation "Jesus" had with God before he was incarnated...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a09.htm

I will highlight this...
But before a century had ended, God summoned the eldest of the Youngest.
And He said: "My son, are your ready? For the time is nigh, when according to your promise to Me, your Father, you shall walk upon the Earth among mankind.
"Teach human beings to love one another, as brothers and sisters, teach them to love the Light and to shun the evil and sinful deeds of Darkness. Strengthen them in that which is good, strengthen them in that which is true. Teach them to have faith in Me, their God, the Father of their spirit."
But the son answered Him and said: "Father, I am ready."
Then God spoke further.
And He said: "My son, it may happen that your journeyings will be burdensome and hard, for many are the ways that you may walk among human beings. The times are evil, for Darkness reigns over all the Earth, and it will be hard for you to find the proper path. My son, are you ready?"
But the son answered: "Father, say unto me, shall I choose the right way?"
God looked fondly upon him, and He said: "I, your Father, will not choose the way for you. I will but show you the way that can lead unto the goal, and none can know beforehand whether you will fulfil your task.
"My son, hear me, for I shall seek to guide you: pray you for your eldest brother while you are as a human being, then will the loving thoughts of your prayer awaken repentance in his heart, then will he return unto his rightful Home in My Kingdom. And is your brother saved, then will Darkness have no servant to oppose you, then will the way of your journey be easier and more full of the Light, for then will mankind see in you the being that you are. Many will love you, and only few will hate you."
And God spoke further.
And He said: "My son, should you not remember your brother and forget to pray for him, then will he strive against you, then will the road of your journey be stony and dusty. The thorns will sting you, only few will love you, many will hate you, mock you and persecute you. Yea, human beings will bring you death - death upon the cross. Such will be their gratitude for the gifts that you bring them.
"My son, your Father asks of you: are you still ready?"
Then the son bowed down his head, and for a time he stood silent; for he searched his heart.
But his love for suffering humanity impelled him. He looked steadfastly upon his Father and answered: "Father, I am still ready. But Father, forgive me, should I not find the right path while I live upon the Earth; for Thou knowest Darkness; Thou knowest that its power is awesome."
Then God embraced His son, and He said: "I, your Father, shall lead you, that your journey should not be exceeding hard; but I say unto you: always heed My voice when I speak unto you; for then will you never go astray."
And God spoke further.
And He said: "Behold, My son, I shall ask one of your brothers to go with you upon your journey, that he may carry some of your burden and remove some of the stones from your path."
And God chose one of the Youngest. And he promised to go with his brother.
Then God spoke unto them both.
And He said: "Sustain each other, bear each other's burden, do not fail!"
And God blessed them, and He took away their memory; but He let them keep a faint remembrance of the times that were before the creation of mankind. God did this so that the eldest of the Youngest should never doubt who he was, nor ever doubt the truth of the words that he should speak unto human beings. God did this so as to help them work together, that the younger brother should not fail the elder.
And He sent them both unto the Jewish people.
But one was called Jesus of Nazareth and the other was Joseph of Arimathea.
______________

Some while before God sent the two brothers unto the Earth, He called upon a third one of the Youngest.
And God said unto him: "Behold, your elder brother is distressed, the times are evil, for Darkness rules everywhere upon the Earth. I, your Father, ask of you: will you prepare the way for him? Will you seek to remove some of the stones from his path, that his footsteps shall not falter upon his journeying? My son, will you go with your brother?"
His son answered Him and said: "Father, I am ready; give me Thy blessing, and I shall go with my brothers."
But when he had answered thus, God spoke further.
And He said: "Teach human beings to shun the deeds of Darkness; teach them to turn away from their false gods; teach them to repent of the evil they have done, that they may travel the straight road unto My Kingdom. My son, pray for those who are bound by Darkness. My son, seek to remember your eldest and fallen brother."
And God took away his memory, but He let him keep a faint remembrance of the brother that he loved, and for whom he should prepare the way. God did this so that he should know the eldest of the Youngest, when they met in their journeying through life upon the Earth.
And God sent him unto the Jewish people, and he was called
John, named The Baptist.
So we have 3 souls on a mission.

Let me now point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a13.htm

And to the commentary to this (the above) question and answer...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko13.htm

I will highlight this...
In order to remind Jesus of the possibility that the Elder could gain further victories over him by leading people astray and by turning them against him, God repeated the words He had spoken to him during their discourse before his incarnation: "Human beings will bring you death - death upon the cross." With these words Jesus should always be reminded that it was not God, but the Elder and human beings who would inflict upon him the sufferings and the possible death that awaited him.
And then point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko23.htm

Is there anymore to point to?

Can we get a good picture, based on that, about what Jesus mission was?

Maybe I should also point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

What can we conclude about Jesus mission?

I will point to this again...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a09.htm

And highlight this...
"Teach human beings to love one another, as brothers and sisters, teach them to love the Light and to shun the evil and sinful deeds of Darkness. Strengthen them in that which is good, strengthen them in that which is true. Teach them to have faith in Me, their God, the Father of their spirit."
And this...
Then God spoke further.
And He said: "My son, it may happen that your journeyings will be burdensome and hard, for many are the ways that you may walk among human beings. The times are evil, for Darkness reigns over all the Earth, and it will be hard for you to find the proper path. My son, are you ready?"
But the son answered: "Father, say unto me, shall I choose the right way?"
God looked fondly upon him, and He said: "I, your Father, will not choose the way for you. I will but show you the way that can lead unto the goal, and none can know beforehand whether you will fulfil your task.
"My son, hear me, for I shall seek to guide you: pray you for your eldest brother while you are as a human being, then will the loving thoughts of your prayer awaken repentance in his heart, then will he return unto his rightful Home in My Kingdom. And is your brother saved, then will Darkness have no servant to oppose you, then will the way of your journey be easier and more full of the Light, for then will mankind see in you the being that you are. Many will love you, and only few will hate you."
Now...I have found a question...in a supplement to the book...this supplement contains questions asked by people...who...after they had read the book...asked questions about it...

The question goes like this...

Can there on the basis of the bible be found any support for God and humans forgiveness of Satan = Ardor?

This is in danish only (I don´t think it has been translated yet) and its a long answer, so I will point to the relevant things.

The answer start this way...

Not directly, but indirectly there is such a support in the new testament...in Matthew 5,44 and Luke 6,27-28.

In luke 6,27-28...

After saying those words Jesus dosen´t say...but herefrom Satan must be excluded.

There are also the story about the lost son...Luke 15,11-32.

This story is among those stories that was common at Jesus time, but he used it often because it for him expressed Gods true and all overwhelming, all forgiven fatherlove.

And then the answer goes on explaining things.

I´m not so good at making things short...so...can it be any shorter? Maybe you could make it shorter than me...because you are very good at these things :D

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Post #105

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: I´m not so good at making things short...so...can it be any shorter? Maybe you could make it shorter than me...because you are very good at these things :D
Well this is extremely easy to shorten up:
Waterfall wrote: "Teach human beings to love one another, as brothers and sisters, teach them to love the Light and to shun the evil and sinful deeds of Darkness. Strengthen them in that which is good, strengthen them in that which is true. Teach them to have faith in Me, their God, the Father of their spirit."
Ok so clearly Jesus' mission was to teach humans to love one another as brothers and sisters. And to love the light and shun the evil.
Waterfall wrote: What can we conclude about Jesus mission?
He clearly failed in a major way. Can you show me where he was successful in having taught humans to love one another or shun evil?

Just because he is said to have "preached" these things doesn't mean that he was successful in teaching humans to do these things. Therefore if his mission was to teach humans to do these things he failed miserably. Jesus has been used throughout history to hate on anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as God.

So clearly Jesus failed if his mission was to teach people to love each other.

Also, just think of how big a jerk Jesus' father was being here. Jesus' father is the one who taught men to brutally kill each other for all manner of "sins". Not the least of which is the sin of blaspheme. And he also instructed people to never place any other Gods before him.

Then he's going to send Jesus into this crowd and have him claim that the only way to get to the father God is by him? That's blaspheme. So the Father God was sending Jesus into a hopeless situation where he would be certain to be killed by humans because that's what the Father God had already taught humans to do.

If this Father God had wanted humans to love each other why didn't he just teach them to do that from the very beginning? :-k

Clearly not only does Jesus fail in this scenario, but so does the Father God.

Moreover, your very suggestion that we need this book that was written after 1908 to teach us what Jesus failed to teach us is only further proof that Jesus failed in this mission. Had Jesus succeeded there most certainly wouldn't need to be any books written some nineteen hundred years after Jesus to try to explain what Jesus failed to teach.

Moreover there are tons of secular atheists who love all of humanity, and they didn't need Jesus to teach them to love humanity. To the contrary if they had been there when the Father God was assigning this mission to Jesus they would protest!

They would demand answers for why the Father God didn't teach people to love one another in the first place instead of commanding them to stone each other to death for every little trivial thing.

Never mind Jesus!

It's the Father God who would be the villain in this story. Jesus would be nothing more than an innocent patsy that the Father God tried to use to shirk his own responsibilities and failures.

Atheists wouldn't have a bone to pick with Jesus. They would demand that the Father God be brought up on charges of gross incompetence.

Jesus would have been nothing more than just another victim of this Father God's ineptitude.

The Biblical paradigm fails. Writing books in 1908 to try to salvage a failed paradigm just isn't going to help.
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Post #106

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: I´m not so good at making things short...so...can it be any shorter? Maybe you could make it shorter than me...because you are very good at these things :D
Well this is extremely easy to shorten up:
Waterfall wrote: "Teach human beings to love one another, as brothers and sisters, teach them to love the Light and to shun the evil and sinful deeds of Darkness. Strengthen them in that which is good, strengthen them in that which is true. Teach them to have faith in Me, their God, the Father of their spirit."
Ok so clearly Jesus' mission was to teach humans to love one another as brothers and sisters. And to love the light and shun the evil.
Waterfall wrote: What can we conclude about Jesus mission?
He clearly failed in a major way. Can you show me where he was successful in having taught humans to love one another or shun evil?

Just because he is said to have "preached" these things doesn't mean that he was successful in teaching humans to do these things. Therefore if his mission was to teach humans to do these things he failed miserably. Jesus has been used throughout history to hate on anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as God.

So clearly Jesus failed if his mission was to teach people to love each other.

Also, just think of how big a jerk Jesus' father was being here. Jesus' father is the one who taught men to brutally kill each other for all manner of "sins". Not the least of which is the sin of blaspheme. And he also instructed people to never place any other Gods before him.

Then he's going to send Jesus into this crowd and have him claim that the only way to get to the father God is by him? That's blaspheme. So the Father God was sending Jesus into a hopeless situation where he would be certain to be killed by humans because that's what the Father God had already taught humans to do.

If this Father God had wanted humans to love each other why didn't he just teach them to do that from the very beginning? :-k

Clearly not only does Jesus fail in this scenario, but so does the Father God.

Moreover, your very suggestion that we need this book that was written after 1908 to teach us what Jesus failed to teach us is only further proof that Jesus failed in this mission. Had Jesus succeeded there most certainly wouldn't need to be any books written some nineteen hundred years after Jesus to try to explain what Jesus failed to teach.

Moreover there are tons of secular atheists who love all of humanity, and they didn't need Jesus to teach them to love humanity. To the contrary if they had been there when the Father God was assigning this mission to Jesus they would protest!

They would demand answers for why the Father God didn't teach people to love one another in the first place instead of commanding them to stone each other to death for every little trivial thing.

Never mind Jesus!

It's the Father God who would be the villain in this story. Jesus would be nothing more than an innocent patsy that the Father God tried to use to shirk his own responsibilities and failures.

Atheists wouldn't have a bone to pick with Jesus. They would demand that the Father God be brought up on charges of gross incompetence.

Jesus would have been nothing more than just another victim of this Father God's ineptitude.

The Biblical paradigm fails. Writing books in 1908 to try to salvage a failed paradigm just isn't going to help.

I hope you will join me in a big smile :)

How should I respond?

Was Jesus not sent on a mission?

Did he fail?

How is Jesus to be "blame" for the stories about him?

Don´t get stock in that question.

According to this book his mission was a failure...but not a complete failure.

He was a man like you.

Is that a failure?

He inspired people...

And know we get the true story about what happen...is that not great?

There was 3 on a mission.

But you think Jesus, one man, should have done everything?

Are you not dependent on other people?

I could, if I would, make "you" famous...so...are you not dependent on other people?

Or the internet? Or books? Or?

Was Jesus not dependent on other people?

Things didn´t go as God wanted them to (or did they?)...the mission was not a success...but...God is not only seeing the short road...but also the long road...

So...things work out...one way or another...as God wants them.

We have free will.

And we are a lot who despite of it all believes that Jesus was sent by our Father...the allmighty...we see truth in his teaching...we can wait...patience is a good thing...and we should all learn that.

Me to.

But I have not come to be a complete failure :D

I have told the truth...as I see it...what you do with it is up to you...

Music is changing the world...maybe my president is Rihanna ;)

Just kidding...because I have not forgotten anything or maybe I have O:)

[youtube][/youtube]

Very, very good music.

Love it...

But now I´m drunk again and I am happy to say that and you may call me a fool and then I will say cheers...

Maybe I will read the rest now...yeah...that I will do...and then I might go insane :shock: ;)

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Divine Insight
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Post #107

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: Was Jesus not sent on a mission?
Well, that's the question isn't.

I hold that if he was sent on this mission then it was the Father God who sent him who was the original failure.
Waterfall wrote: Did he fail?
If it was his mission to teach humans to love each other than yes, he was a failure.

Keep in mind that the success of a teacher is not in what they teach, but rather in how well their students perform on the final exam. If all the students fail we can hardly say that the teacher was successful. :D
Waterfall wrote: How is Jesus to be "blame" for the stories about him?
Well, for one thing since he didn't write anything down himself and he left his entire message up to nothing more than hearsay gossip, then I think that would be extremely good evidence that he was a horrible teacher. Especially if his "class" was supposed to be all of humanity.

Just look at what the hearsay gossip about Jesus has ultimately produced. We have "Christian Churches" rising up in Jesus' name teaching all manner of conflicting messages. Even Catholic Popes couldn't agree on the message of Jesus.

Many Christian churches hold out hatred toward gays in Jesus' name to this very day.

Some Christian clergy actually preach and politically lobby for having gays executed by law in 'God's Name" because let's not forget that even according to the story you are supporting from this book you keep pointing to, the God of the Old Testament is the Father God of Jesus.

Because don't forget, the hearsay rumors about Jesus (which is all we can know of the man) claim that Jesus himself decreed that not on jot or one tittle of the Old Testament Law shall pass until heaven and earth pass.

So trying to separate Jesus from the Old Testament God is impossible, unless of course you reject the hearsay gossip rumors about him. But if you do that then you have NOTHING. Because, remember, Jesus never wrote anything down. Everything we know about Jesus comes from hearsay gossip.

That's how Jesus "taught" humanity. Through unreliable and self-contradictory, hearsay gossip that no two Christians (or believers in Jesus) can even agree on anyway.

So let me just say this. If Jesus was a teacher I would not hire him. His resume is simply unimpressive.
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Post #108

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: Was Jesus not sent on a mission?
Well, that's the question isn't.

I hold that if he was sent on this mission then it was the Father God who sent him who was the original failure.
Waterfall wrote: Did he fail?
If it was his mission to teach humans to love each other than yes, he was a failure.

Keep in mind that the success of a teacher is not in what they teach, but rather in how well their students perform on the final exam. If all the students fail we can hardly say that the teacher was successful. :D
Waterfall wrote: How is Jesus to be "blame" for the stories about him?
Well, for one thing since he didn't write anything down himself and he left his entire message up to nothing more than hearsay gossip, then I think that would be extremely good evidence that he was a horrible teacher. Especially if his "class" was supposed to be all of humanity.

Just look at what the hearsay gossip about Jesus has ultimately produced. We have "Christian Churches" rising up in Jesus' name teaching all manner of conflicting messages. Even Catholic Popes couldn't agree on the message of Jesus.

Many Christian churches hold out hatred toward gays in Jesus' name to this very day.

Some Christian clergy actually preach and politically lobby for having gays executed by law in 'God's Name" because let's not forget that even according to the story you are supporting from this book you keep pointing to, the God of the Old Testament is the Father God of Jesus.

Because don't forget, the hearsay rumors about Jesus (which is all we can know of the man) claim that Jesus himself decreed that not on jot or one tittle of the Old Testament Law shall pass until heaven and earth pass.

So trying to separate Jesus from the Old Testament God is impossible, unless of course you reject the hearsay gossip rumors about him. But if you do that then you have NOTHING. Because, remember, Jesus never wrote anything down. Everything we know about Jesus comes from hearsay gossip.

That's how Jesus "taught" humanity. Through unreliable and self-contradictory, hearsay gossip that no two Christians (or believers in Jesus) can even agree on anyway.

So let me just say this. If Jesus was a teacher I would not hire him. His resume is simply unimpressive.
Now I will go insane ;)

And I haven´t even read the rest yet...but...I love Divine Insight...so...lets say CHEERS and think about things in the right light 8-)

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Post #109

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: I´m not so good at making things short...so...can it be any shorter? Maybe you could make it shorter than me...because you are very good at these things :D
Well this is extremely easy to shorten up:
Waterfall wrote: "Teach human beings to love one another, as brothers and sisters, teach them to love the Light and to shun the evil and sinful deeds of Darkness. Strengthen them in that which is good, strengthen them in that which is true. Teach them to have faith in Me, their God, the Father of their spirit."
Ok so clearly Jesus' mission was to teach humans to love one another as brothers and sisters. And to love the light and shun the evil.
Waterfall wrote: What can we conclude about Jesus mission?
He clearly failed in a major way. Can you show me where he was successful in having taught humans to love one another or shun evil?

Just because he is said to have "preached" these things doesn't mean that he was successful in teaching humans to do these things. Therefore if his mission was to teach humans to do these things he failed miserably. Jesus has been used throughout history to hate on anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as God.

So clearly Jesus failed if his mission was to teach people to love each other.

Also, just think of how big a jerk Jesus' father was being here. Jesus' father is the one who taught men to brutally kill each other for all manner of "sins". Not the least of which is the sin of blaspheme. And he also instructed people to never place any other Gods before him.

Then he's going to send Jesus into this crowd and have him claim that the only way to get to the father God is by him? That's blaspheme. So the Father God was sending Jesus into a hopeless situation where he would be certain to be killed by humans because that's what the Father God had already taught humans to do.

If this Father God had wanted humans to love each other why didn't he just teach them to do that from the very beginning? :-k

Clearly not only does Jesus fail in this scenario, but so does the Father God.

Moreover, your very suggestion that we need this book that was written after 1908 to teach us what Jesus failed to teach us is only further proof that Jesus failed in this mission. Had Jesus succeeded there most certainly wouldn't need to be any books written some nineteen hundred years after Jesus to try to explain what Jesus failed to teach.

Moreover there are tons of secular atheists who love all of humanity, and they didn't need Jesus to teach them to love humanity. To the contrary if they had been there when the Father God was assigning this mission to Jesus they would protest!

They would demand answers for why the Father God didn't teach people to love one another in the first place instead of commanding them to stone each other to death for every little trivial thing.

Never mind Jesus!

It's the Father God who would be the villain in this story. Jesus would be nothing more than an innocent patsy that the Father God tried to use to shirk his own responsibilities and failures.

Atheists wouldn't have a bone to pick with Jesus. They would demand that the Father God be brought up on charges of gross incompetence.

Jesus would have been nothing more than just another victim of this Father God's ineptitude.

The Biblical paradigm fails. Writing books in 1908 to try to salvage a failed paradigm just isn't going to help.
Why don´t we have a better book about Jesus teaching?

As this book tells us there was 3 on a mission.

What was Jesus mission?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a09.htm

I will highlight this...
But before a century had ended, God summoned the eldest of the Youngest.
And He said: "My son, are your ready? For the time is nigh, when according to your promise to Me, your Father, you shall walk upon the Earth among mankind.
"Teach human beings to love one another, as brothers and sisters, teach them to love the Light and to shun the evil and sinful deeds of Darkness. Strengthen them in that which is good, strengthen them in that which is true. Teach them to have faith in Me, their God, the Father of their spirit."
But the son answered Him and said: "Father, I am ready."
And this...
Then God spoke further.
And He said: "My son, it may happen that your journeyings will be burdensome and hard, for many are the ways that you may walk among human beings. The times are evil, for Darkness reigns over all the Earth, and it will be hard for you to find the proper path. My son, are you ready?"
But the son answered: "Father, say unto me, shall I choose the right way?"
God looked fondly upon him, and He said: "I, your Father, will not choose the way for you. I will but show you the way that can lead unto the goal, and none can know beforehand whether you will fulfil your task.
"My son, hear me, for I shall seek to guide you: pray you for your eldest brother while you are as a human being, then will the loving thoughts of your prayer awaken repentance in his heart, then will he return unto his rightful Home in My Kingdom. And is your brother saved, then will Darkness have no servant to oppose you, then will the way of your journey be easier and more full of the Light, for then will mankind see in you the being that you are. Many will love you, and only few will hate you."
And God spoke further.
And He said: "My son, should you not remember your brother and forget to pray for him, then will he strive against you, then will the road of your journey be stony and dusty. The thorns will sting you, only few will love you, many will hate you, mock you and persecute you. Yea, human beings will bring you death - death upon the cross. Such will be their gratitude for the gifts that you bring them.
"My son, your Father asks of you: are you still ready?"
Then the son bowed down his head, and for a time he stood silent; for he searched his heart.
But his love for suffering humanity impelled him. He looked steadfastly upon his Father and answered: "Father, I am still ready. But Father, forgive me, should I not find the right path while I live upon the Earth; for Thou knowest Darkness; Thou knowest that its power is awesome."
Then God embraced His son, and He said: "I, your Father, shall lead you, that your journey should not be exceeding hard; but I say unto you: always heed My voice when I speak unto you; for then will you never go astray."
Was Jesus a failed teacher?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a12.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a13.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a14.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a15.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a16.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a17.htm

How can we, based on this, say that he was a failed teacher?

Because he didn´t writte a book?

Is that the criteria for a good or bad teacher?

Was Jesus a rich man?

Maybe he couldn't afford to write a book?

Should he had said...rich man...come and writte a book about me?

I´m just trying to understand your argument...

As this book say it was Josef of Arimathea...a rich man...who was sent down (with him) to writte about him...remember there was 3 on a mission...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a09.htm

I will highlight this...
And God spoke further.
And He said: "Behold, My son, I shall ask one of your brothers to go with you upon your journey, that he may carry some of your burden and remove some of the stones from your path."
And God chose one of the Youngest. And he promised to go with his brother.
Then God spoke unto them both.
And He said: "Sustain each other, bear each other's burden, do not fail!"
And God blessed them, and He took away their memory; but He let them keep a faint remembrance of the times that were before the creation of mankind. God did this so that the eldest of the Youngest should never doubt who he was, nor ever doubt the truth of the words that he should speak unto human beings. God did this so as to help them work together, that the younger brother should not fail the elder.
And He sent them both unto the Jewish people.
But one was called Jesus of Nazareth and the other was Joseph of Arimathea.
______________

Some while before God sent the two brothers unto the Earth, He called upon a third one of the Youngest.
And God said unto him: "Behold, your elder brother is distressed, the times are evil, for Darkness rules everywhere upon the Earth. I, your Father, ask of you: will you prepare the way for him? Will you seek to remove some of the stones from his path, that his footsteps shall not falter upon his journeying? My son, will you go with your brother?"
His son answered Him and said: "Father, I am ready; give me Thy blessing, and I shall go with my brothers."
But when he had answered thus, God spoke further.
And He said: "Teach human beings to shun the deeds of Darkness; teach them to turn away from their false gods; teach them to repent of the evil they have done, that they may travel the straight road unto My Kingdom. My son, pray for those who are bound by Darkness. My son, seek to remember your eldest and fallen brother."
And God took away his memory, but He let him keep a faint remembrance of the brother that he loved, and for whom he should prepare the way. God did this so that he should know the eldest of the Youngest, when they met in their journeying through life upon the Earth.
And God sent him unto the Jewish people, and he was called
John, named The Baptist.
But things went wrong between Jesus and Josef, so...

Let me point to this again...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko23.htm

Is there anymore question...

Who was Jesus?

Let me point to this commentary...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko11.htm

I´m just trying to understand what was going on at that time, so...

For ten years (if he was killed at the age of 33) he was in a "battlezone"...

Are Jesus to "blame" for all the stories about him?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a28.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a29.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a30.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a31.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a32.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a33.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a34.htm

Is this book telling the truth about Christianity? To me it makes sence...

But now I will watch this movie...it makes me laugh and think about life at that time in a funny way :D

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Post #110

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: Maybe he couldn't afford to write a book?
Well that would be a failure on his part wouldn't it?

This is a man who supposedly told people that if they merely ask a mountain to move it will move. He supposedly had magical powers to be able to heal the sick and raise the dead. He was supposed to be so extremely intelligent and clever that he could make the brightest mortal wise-man look like an idiot.

But he couldn't afford to write a book. A book that it so important that it could make the difference between heaven or hell for millions of humans.

And besides, what are we even talking about Jesus for? You started this thread about "Deep Thinking". If you think a little deeper, it's the Father God that is the problem in this religion. Focusing on the failures of Jesus is a waste of time. It's the Father God that would be extremely inept in this religion.

Most non-Christians who reject Christianity are not rejecting Jesus. Instead they realize that the main God of this religion is the immoral ignoramus. Jesus would have been nothing more but yet another failure in a long list of failures that the original God of this religion would ultimately be guilty of.

In fact, before you even mention Jesus you really need to make a case for why anyone should believe in Yahweh. Only after you have made a case for that would it make any sense to talk about Jesus. And even then the only reason Jesus would even be required at all in this religion is if the Father God had already been a failure prior to having to send Jesus to try to clean up the mess that Father God had already created.

In short, Jesus can't save Yahweh. So this religion was already dead in the water long before the rumors of Jesus ever came to be.

If you want to believe in magical fairy tales there are far better ones to choose from then Christianity.

Why choose such a negative and problematic fairy tale to spend the rest of your life making excuses for when far better ones already exist that need no excuses?

I'm just saying.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
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