Deep thinking

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Waterfall
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Deep thinking

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

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Post #111

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: Maybe he couldn't afford to write a book?
Well that would be a failure on his part wouldn't it?

This is a man who supposedly told people that if they merely ask a mountain to move it will move. He supposedly had magical powers to be able to heal the sick and raise the dead. He was supposed to be so extremely intelligent and clever that he could make the brightest mortal wise-man look like an idiot.

But he couldn't afford to write a book. A book that it so important that it could make the difference between heaven or hell for millions of humans.

And besides, what are we even talking about Jesus for? You started this thread about "Deep Thinking". If you think a little deeper, it's the Father God that is the problem in this religion. Focusing on the failures of Jesus is a waste of time. It's the Father God that would be extremely inept in this religion.

Most non-Christians who reject Christianity are not rejecting Jesus. Instead they realize that the main God of this religion is the immoral ignoramus. Jesus would have been nothing more but yet another failure in a long list of failures that the original God of this religion would ultimately be guilty of.

In fact, before you even mention Jesus you really need to make a case for why anyone should believe in Yahweh. Only after you have made a case for that would it make any sense to talk about Jesus. And even then the only reason Jesus would even be required at all in this religion is if the Father God had already been a failure prior to having to send Jesus to try to clean up the mess that Father God had already created.

In short, Jesus can't save Yahweh. So this religion was already dead in the water long before the rumors of Jesus ever came to be.

If you want to believe in magical fairy tales there are far better ones to choose from then Christianity.

Why choose such a negative and problematic fairy tale to spend the rest of your life making excuses for when far better ones already exist that need no excuses?

I'm just saying.
I went back and looked at the text...it says human being...not every human being on earth (that would have been impossible for him)...but if he could "change" the mind of those around him...then they could "change" the mind of those around them...and so on.

How do things work?

With regard to the Father God, then I will point to this againg...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

Are Jesus on your side?

He was out there helping people...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a18.htm

Why should he writte anything down?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a22.htm

I will highlight this...
But he continued to heal the sick, continued to drive out the unclean spirits. And he continued to speak unto the people of God's love and compassion; continued to interpret the Scriptures as his spirit moved him.
And then point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a17.htm

Did Jesus writte the new testament?

How could he have forseen all the stories about him?

I´m pointing to this book because the story make sence to me...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a28.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a29.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a30.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a31.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a32.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a33.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a34.htm

What do this book have to say about things?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a35.htm

Is this book telling us the truth? I´m not an historian, but it sounds right in my ears, so...

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Post #112

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: How could he have forseen all the stories about him? .
Who says he did?

The people who wrote the stories? :-k

Think about that for a while. ;)
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Post #113

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: How could he have forseen all the stories about him? .
Who says he did?

The people who wrote the stories? :-k

Think about that for a while. ;)
I don´t understand where you are going with this? Are we not talking about why he didn´t writte anything down?

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Post #114

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 105 by Divine Insight]

"Just because he is said to have "preached" these things doesn't mean that he was successful in teaching humans to do these things. Therefore if his mission was to teach humans to do these things he failed miserably. Jesus has been used throughout history to hate on anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as God. "

And for each one who did hate, as you said, there are thousands who
love their neighbor and are peace loving and tolerant.
As a result you live in a peaceful country and have freedom to
think and do.

Thank your lucky stars that there was a man called Jesus.
You would not have to believe in hell, you'd be living it.

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Post #115

Post by Divine Insight »

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 105 by Divine Insight]

"Just because he is said to have "preached" these things doesn't mean that he was successful in teaching humans to do these things. Therefore if his mission was to teach humans to do these things he failed miserably. Jesus has been used throughout history to hate on anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as God. "

And for each one who did hate, as you said, there are thousands who
love their neighbor and are peace loving and tolerant.
As a result you live in a peaceful country and have freedom to
think and do.

Thank your lucky stars that there was a man called Jesus.
You would not have to believe in hell, you'd be living it.
Are you kidding me? :-k

A free democracy is the anti-thesis of Christianity. It's Christian Heresy.

Christianity itself represents the ultimate totalitarian dictatorship where Jesus is the King of the monarchy, or in this case it would be a theocracy.

Saint Paul himself, proclaims in Jesus' name:

Rom.13
[1]Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.


A free democracy where the people ordain their leaders via their freedom to vote would be heresy according to Paul. Only God ordains those who are are to be placed in authority.

So I actually have the Greeks to thank for the free democracy I live in. Certainly not Christianity. And certainly not Jesus. Jesus himself is the ultimate totalitarian dictator. Disagree with Jesus and your doomed. Not unlike Hitler or Saddam Husein.

So there's no way that Jesus is to thank for the Free Democracy that I have enjoyed.

And besides, you can't credit Jesus for everyone who isn't a hateful person. That's ridiculous. This is just another example where the cult of Christianity tries to lay claim to the patent rights to love. :roll:

Clearly there were historical figures who lived prior to Jesus who taught people to love others as themselves. Buddha being the most obvious. But there were many others as well.

So you can't credit Jesus for everyone who wants to live in a peaceful loving world. That's absurd. He was far from being the first or only person to desire to live in a peaceful loving world. In fact, many Christians actually find Jesus appealing precisely because he supposedly represents what they already desire. So they are already one step ahead of Jesus as it is.
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Post #116

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: How could he have forseen all the stories about him? .
Who says he did?

The people who wrote the stories? :-k

Think about that for a while. ;)
I don´t understand where you are going with this? Are we not talking about why he didn´t writte anything down?
The topic of your thread is "Deep Thinking" remember? And the question of your OP is whether or not we should procreate and bring children into this world.

Now you want to talk about whether or not Jesus should have written anything down. You should start a new thread on that topic if that's the case. My position on that if very firm. If Jesus was supposed to be "The Word Made Flesh" as the Bible proclaims then he, of all people, should have been aware of the importance of the written word. There would also be no excuse for him to be illiterate.

But you seem to have just missed the point I've made. In your thread topic of "Deep Thinking" I suggest that you think more deeply about why you believe that Jesus foresaw any of the things the authors who wrote about him claim that he foresaw.

All we have is their claim that he did this.

Take the betrayal of Judas for example. It's these authors who claim that Jesus foresaw this. The very same authors who claim that Judas betrayed Jesus.

However, in truth, we have no way of knowing whether either event ever actually happened. We have no way of knowing whether Jesus ever predicted that Judas would betray him. And we have no way of knowing whether Judas actually did betray him. For all we know both of these events could have been made up by the authors who wrote these rumors.

So if you are looking at that as some sort of "evidence" that Jesus was able to foresee what was about to happen I suggest that you are not thinking deeply enough.

Authors who write rumors about people can have their characters foresee whatever they so desire. They can even make up the whole shebang. Not only can they make up what Jesus supposedly foresaw, but then they can made up what eventually happened.

In the meantime there is absolutely no evidence (or any way to confirm) that either happened. Neither the foretelling of the event, nor the event itself.

So when you ask, "How could Jesus have foreseen all the stories about him?", the answer is simple. He wouldn't have needed to have foreseen anything. The authors who wrote about him simply claimed that he foresaw things that he never actually foresaw.

It's that simple. Question answered.

As you can see, if you start a thread on that question it's not going to get very far. :D

It's too easy to show why this is not impressive.
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Post #117

Post by Monta »

[Replying to Divine Insight]

"Rom.13
[1]Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

A free democracy where the people ordain their leaders via their freedom to vote would be heresy according to Paul. Only God ordains those who are are to be placed in authority."


I don't know where you picked up that translation.

Romans 13:1-7 kjv

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Higher power? We we vertainly do not consider our governments as higher power.

Having people choosing their leaders can not be but choice in freedom. Hardly think Paul was talking about God sending a list for the next year's leadership.

Of course we can not compare leadership of 2000 ys ago to how we do things today. Religion and politics was closely entwined, unlike today. People in the leadership were expected to be spiritual and "minister of God to thee for good"...
"to execute wrath upon him who does evil". Isn't that what our laws are doing.

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Post #118

Post by Divine Insight »

Monta wrote: Of course we can not compare leadership of 2000 ys ago to how we do things today. Religion and politics was closely entwined, unlike today. People in the leadership were expected to be spiritual and "minister of God to thee for good"...
"to execute wrath upon him who does evil". Isn't that what our laws are doing.
Yes it's true that religions of old were indeed man's first attempt to establish governments. And what worked best back in those days was to decree that the government represents the authority of a God.

Christianity and Islam have become the ultimate authoritarian-based religions that continue to this day to try to proclaim laws in the name of an imaginary God.

And no, it's not the purpose of modern democracies to "execute wrath upon those who do evil". In fact, it is that very mentality that modern day secularists object to. That it the mentality that these ancient superstitious religions promote.

Secularists suggest moving forward and quit thinking in terms of taking wrath out on the perpetrators of evil, but instead start thinking in terms of protecting the citizens of the state and encouraging positive change though wise leadership.

In fact, isn't that the TRUE MESSAGE of Jesus? :-k

Didn't Jesus teach to not resist evil and to turn the other cheek and forgive those who do evil things?

Jesus was one of the first to rebel against the religion that demands wrath be unleashed upon the evil doers.

Unfortunately, Jesus was crucified for his efforts and then nailed to the religion that demands that God shall unleash his wrath upon evil doing when he was proclaimed to be the Son of Yahweh.

Jesus has then been used to support the original religion as a graven image of the Son of God hanging on a crucifix. Idol worship. Ironically symbolizing everything that Jesus himself stood against even according to the Gospel rumors.
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Re: Deep thinking

Post #119

Post by marco »

Waterfall wrote:

Why do atheist put children into the world?


Someone asked why we don't send babies directly to heaven instead of letting them get sinless and risk not arriving there. Heaven's a tough concept.

As for having children, the poet Tennyson observed that it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. The same applies to living, I think.

We attend a party and enjoy the fun even though it is brief enjoyment. We live in the boundaries between birth and death and do our best to make the Earth just a little warmer for our being here. Some manage to do that admirably, so why would you not want children? The day after the final joins all our yesterdays, but there is so much for our kids to discover in the meantime.

And if at the final nightfall there is something that eye hath not seen nor ear heard, then good and well. Ignorance of it is hardly a crime. Go well.

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Post #120

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: How could he have forseen all the stories about him? .
Who says he did?

The people who wrote the stories? :-k

Think about that for a while. ;)
I don´t understand where you are going with this? Are we not talking about why he didn´t writte anything down?
The topic of your thread is "Deep Thinking" remember? And the question of your OP is whether or not we should procreate and bring children into this world.

Now you want to talk about whether or not Jesus should have written anything down. You should start a new thread on that topic if that's the case. My position on that if very firm. If Jesus was supposed to be "The Word Made Flesh" as the Bible proclaims then he, of all people, should have been aware of the importance of the written word. There would also be no excuse for him to be illiterate.

But you seem to have just missed the point I've made. In your thread topic of "Deep Thinking" I suggest that you think more deeply about why you believe that Jesus foresaw any of the things the authors who wrote about him claim that he foresaw.

All we have is their claim that he did this.

Take the betrayal of Judas for example. It's these authors who claim that Jesus foresaw this. The very same authors who claim that Judas betrayed Jesus.

However, in truth, we have no way of knowing whether either event ever actually happened. We have no way of knowing whether Jesus ever predicted that Judas would betray him. And we have no way of knowing whether Judas actually did betray him. For all we know both of these events could have been made up by the authors who wrote these rumors.

So if you are looking at that as some sort of "evidence" that Jesus was able to foresee what was about to happen I suggest that you are not thinking deeply enough.

Authors who write rumors about people can have their characters foresee whatever they so desire. They can even make up the whole shebang. Not only can they make up what Jesus supposedly foresaw, but then they can made up what eventually happened.

In the meantime there is absolutely no evidence (or any way to confirm) that either happened. Neither the foretelling of the event, nor the event itself.

So when you ask, "How could Jesus have foreseen all the stories about him?", the answer is simple. He wouldn't have needed to have foreseen anything. The authors who wrote about him simply claimed that he foresaw things that he never actually foresaw.

It's that simple. Question answered.

As you can see, if you start a thread on that question it's not going to get very far. :D

It's too easy to show why this is not impressive.
Maybe we have been talking past each other?

Because I don´t consider the bible to be an authority on Jesus.

Thats why I am pointing to this book.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

This story about Jesus makes sence to me.

In this story Jesus doesn't know everything.

He did never consider that somebody would steal his body.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a28.htm

This book tells how the stories about him (the new testament) came to be.

Like you Jesus had a problem with the scripture.

Let me point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

And this commentary...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko11.htm

I will highlight this...
The speech in the synagogue at Nazareth gave the scribes and high priests their first grounds for anger and hatred toward Jesus. Up to that time he had been regarded as a disciple and prospective Rabbi, but his words concerning their incorrect understanding of Yahweh, or Jehovah, put an immediate end to such hopes.
Then I will go back to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

And highlight this...
But at the moment Jesus knew himself to be strengthened, he went unto the synagogue and stood forth, and he spoke against the elders and against the scribes.
And all who heard his words wondered greatly, for his words were clear, and he spoke with much authority.
But some of the words of Jesus were these: "Behold, I say unto you; the god you fear and worship is not the God of Truth but the God of Falsehood! For I say unto you: should you search with care in the ancient Scriptures, which speak of this your god, then would you see how weak and faltering he is. Now he wields the scourge of vengeance and retribution over the heads of your forefathers and drives his people into exile, then he calls them back. Now he bids their leaders, through the prophets, take arms against their neighbouring peoples to plunder, to pillage and to slay, and when thus he has raged for a time with might and power, then he repents of his actions, repents of the evil that he has done, and promises to temper his wrath, promises to show greater mercy. Truly, truly I say unto you: this is not the God of Truth, this is not the God of Justice!
"And what worship he craves of you!
"How many beasts does he not bid you slaughter before his countenance, that this sacrifice may please him! How much blood is not spilt upon his altar, that the scent thereof may rise unto the heavens and delight his heart!
"Behold, I ask of you: is it not said unto you in the Law of Moses that you should not kill one another? And how often has your god not spoken, through the prophets, unto your forefathers and bid them slay thousands upon thousands of their enemies? And has he not promised your forefathers to reward them for these evil deeds with much glory, many riches and much land! Truly, I say unto you: that God who says, thou shalt not kill and that god who bids you kill are not the same; for that god who bids you slay your enemies, he is of the evil, and you should shun him."
And Jesus continued to speak; for deep silence had fallen upon them all;
And he sought by the words of the Scriptures to show them the God of Love, of Truth and of the Light; the God who with perfect righteousness punishes the transgressions of mankind. He sought to show them the God whose embrace was open unto each repentant sinner, the true, the highest, the only God. He, who was not only the God of the Jewish people, but of all the world - yea, even the God of the heathen.
But when he fell silent, all were dismayed.
And the scribes spoke harsh and condemning words against him.
Are Jesus on your side?

Let me point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a21.htm

And this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a22.htm

I will highlight this...
When Jesus had spoken, he rose from the stone upon which he sat and walked away from them.
But he continued to heal the sick, continued to drive out the unclean spirits. And he continued to speak unto the people of God's love and compassion; continued to interpret the Scriptures as his spirit moved him.
But the enemies of Jesus were yet more embittered.
Was Jesus a good teacher?

How could he, when he was alive, have forseen all the stories about him?

Are you making Jesus into a God? Demanding to mush of him? Or from his disciples?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a28.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a29.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a30.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a31.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a32.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a33.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a34.htm

Why didn´t Jesus writte anything down? Well...it was not his mission to writte anything down...remember there was 3 on a mission...

Maybe there are other reasons to? He was out there teaching about the right understanding of the scripture? Did the teacher fail? Or did the student´s fail? The student´s was given a task...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a31.htm

What should he have been writting down? I don´t like "your" understanding of the scripture? Thats a very short book...

He was out there changing peoples life...

There are also this...a book could be destroyed...a book could become a problem...

I´m just trying to understand what was going on at that time.

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