Deep thinking

[Waterfall]

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 40 by Divine Insight]

Thats a good point.

Haven´t thought about that at all, so thank you

[Waterfall]

Are we not on a impossible mission without God?

If there is no God, then there is no "mission" unless we decide to make one for ourselves. In that case, then whether or not our "mission" will be impossible will depend entirely on what we chose as our "mission".

On the other hand if the Christian God is true, then yes, we are indeed on an "impossible mission". That's the whole point to Christianity. You can't be "saved" in Christianity until you confess that life is impossible and there's nothing you can do. Only then will you be eligible for "salvation by grace" for having confessed that you cannot do anything on your own.

I guess in this sense I must have become "saved" back when I was a teen who realized that life is indeed "Mission Impossible". I've already made my confession.

But now I have the felling of being without my better half...that something is missing in my life...that I´m not whole.

I never married, and I definitely feel that I'm missing having a close companion.

But this is no doubt due to the fact that as humans we evolved as a social species. That sense of void can often be filled with many different types of social groups. From being part of a larger family, even if you have no spouse yourself, to just being a part of a group of friends. Coworkers in a rewarding career can also serve to fill that void. Especially if the career is socially-oriented as teamwork where everyone involved is passionate about the goals. Being part of a sports team, a musical group, etc. I think it's being part of something more than just yourself that fills this desire.

But yeah, I too would love to have a life-mate best-friend. That would be great. Especially when both partners are on the same page or wavelength in terms of what they want out of life.

Having a partner who has totally different goals and desires in life maybe not so hot?

I know this is based on human life...but still...I can easy imagine me walking down the streets of heaven with my soulmate...its not a sexual thing...but a deep lovething between two souls (masculine and feminine).

I totally agree. Except I'm not so sure the (masculine/feminine) thing needs to be part of it if there isn't going to be anything sexual associate with it.

What have God prepered for us? How will God make us happy? Has God put us in a bad situation? How great is God?

Before I would ask any of those questions I would need to have an answer to the question "Is there a God?" Without an answer to this question the rest seem kind of ridiculous.

As for the madman (DT) then I´m not into politic...I don´t understand politic...but I have seen his campaign...and It was not pretty...you are living in a very hard country...but you have a lot of great people over there...maybe because of your countrys history...the american soul...maybe I would have voted for Bernie Sanders...I don´t know...but he seem to be a nice person

I'm not into politics either really. But it still concerns me to have this particular person as our president. I'm not into Christianity theology, but if I were I would be absolutely certain that Donald Trump is the Anti-Christ. Just my impression of course.

I mean he seems to worship money and be hot-to-trot to engage in a nuclear war with someone. He also seems to have no respect for civil or human rights. I can easily see him provoking a nuclear war in the middle east through Israel. But that's just my own personal perceptions. Hopefully I'm dead wrong!

Then again if he really is the Anti-Christ that means the end is near and all us good people will soon be swept off to heaven. So whatever will be will be I guess.

As for my daughter then they (she and her sister (not my child) and her mom and her moms "new" hosbond (he has live over there for "a year" in his young days) are going to some nice places, so...lets hope the best for them all

America is great. They'll have a great time.

I´m not sure we can say that there is no "mission"...because if "God" dies then the "mission" still can go on...right?

I have to think about this some more...because where do "mission" come from? If there is no carcras, then there is no need for a ambulance...

Do our problems disappear with God?

At the moment we solves problems this way...because of God we can say...but if there is no God...then perhaps we would solves problems another way?

Why don´t we blow the world apart?


With regard to Christianity then I don´t think we can talk about one God, because which God was Jesus talking about? Was it the old wargod or a "new" peacegod? Is there a peacegod in the bible?

I think its impossible to have a good life without God/heaven...and I think Jesus has done a lot for us...by coming and telling us about love.

Where would mankind be without all the great souls? Still living in a cave? Would it have been a very slow walk towards good times?


With regard to the soulmate...then I fell that I´m part of the world, the big group of people on the planet...but still I´m missing a close companion (my soulmate)...my parents can´t fill that void...and I will not go on compromise with my fellings...but will live with that void...someday it will be fill with a soulmate i think...maybe I´m wrong...but until it is shown to be wrong...I will live with that felling...Its not a bad felling to live with, so...

I think this (masculine and feminine) has to do with a book that I have read (a very good book about life).

If you want to read it then its free on the internet.

Here http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

And just so you can get a felling of what the book is about I will point to this question and answer in the book.

Here http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm


With regard to the different goals and desires in life...then I would prefer someone who shares my view on things...it would make everything mush easier...should we put children into this world? If she want a child and I don´t then we have a problem, so...


With regard to the questions...then I understand that they don´t make any sense if there is no God, so is there a God? If there is a God (or intelligent being "out" there) then I would say that this book I have link to is a very good bid.

Maybe the best bid we got here on earth.

And the good thing with this book is, that there are things in it that can be testet/observe (it make claims about the universe, but I´m not an astronomer, so...maybe the universe really looks like described in this book...I would love that...but I can´t say that it does, because I´m not an astronomer...but I believe it looks like that...why shouldn´t it look like that?)


With regard to Donald Trump then I understand your problems with him...I would rather have you as the president or someone like you.

But we still have Putin (and others) running around in the world, so...

Lets hope everything works out for the better.

They (all the "politicians") should lisent to some good music and be nice to people...instead of dropping bombs "all over" the world.

And yes...America is great...and thank you very mush for the prediction/wish...they will have a great time over there

[Divine Insight]

Why don´t we blow the world apart?

Strangely it's often religious people who seem anxious to do this.

With regard to Christianity then I don´t think we can talk about one God, because which God was Jesus talking about? Was it the old wargod or a "new" peacegod? Is there a peacegod in the bible?

According to the Christian New Testament, which is are only rumors we have about this particular man named Jesus, the God Jesus was talking about is necessarily the God described in the Jewish Torah. Clearly the old war-god who demands blood sacrifices for the atonement of sin. And supposedly Jesus was the ultimate blood sacrifice offered up for this purpose.

I think its impossible to have a good life without God/heaven...and I think Jesus has done a lot for us...by coming and telling us about love.

I feel deeply sorry for any human who needs Jesus to know about love.

Where would mankind be without all the great souls? Still living in a cave? Would it have been a very slow walk towards good times?

I don't see where Jesus contributed to mankind's technological improvements on life.

With regard to the soulmate...then I fell that I´m part of the world, the big group of people on the planet...but still I´m missing a close companion (my soulmate)...my parents can´t fill that void...and I will not go on compromise with my fellings...but will live with that void...someday it will be fill with a soulmate i think...maybe I´m wrong...but until it is shown to be wrong...I will live with that felling...Its not a bad felling to live with, so...

Weren't you already married once? If so, who were you married to? Someone else's soulmate? And how could that have happened?

I think this (masculine and feminine) has to do with a book that I have read (a very good book about life).

If you want to read it then its free on the internet.

Here http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

From that web page:

" In 1908 a medium was contacted by intelligences from the spiritual world. The reason was that the transcendental world wished to make humanity acquainted with some facts regarding their origin, their relation to God and the battle between Light and Darkness - good and evil. The wish was also to inform about the true teachings of Christ freed from centuries of additions and distortions, as well as making known some of the divine laws which apply to all living beings in the universe."

I don't think Christianity supports the idea that mediums can contact the spiritual world. This sounds pretty fishy to me.

And just so you can get a felling of what the book is about I will point to this question and answer in the book.

Here http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

Sounds like typical religious propaganda to me.

With regard to the different goals and desires in life...then I would prefer someone who shares my view on things...it would make everything mush easier...should we put children into this world? If she want a child and I don´t then we have a problem, so...


With regard to the questions...then I understand that they don´t make any sense if there is no God, so is there a God? If there is a God (or intelligent being "out" there) then I would say that this book I have link to is a very good bid.

Maybe the best bid we got here on earth.

And the good thing with this book is, that there are things in it that can be testet/observe (it make claims about the universe, but I´m not an astronomer, so...maybe the universe really looks like described in this book...I would love that...but I can´t say that it does, because I´m not an astronomer...but I believe it looks like that...why shouldn´t it look like that?)

Why should you need that book? What's wrong with the Christian Gospels and the supposed teaching of Christ? Was Christ such a failed teacher that someone else had to come along and write a better book?

I'm just asking.

With regard to Donald Trump then I understand your problems with him...I would rather have you as the president or someone like you.

I thank you for your confidence in me. Unfortunately I'm quite certain that I would do a far better job than Mr. Trump. The reason this is unfortunate is because even I don't have the experience to be running the most powerful nation on Earth, yet I'm quite confident that I would easily do a far better job than Trump, if only because I would appoint far wiser people to head-up the important offices in our government.

And yes...America is great...and thank you very mush for the prediction/wish...they will have a great time over there

If it were within my power everyone would have a great time always.

[Waterfall]

Why don´t we blow the world apart?

Strangely it's often religious people who seem anxious to do this.

With regard to Christianity then I don´t think we can talk about one God, because which God was Jesus talking about? Was it the old wargod or a "new" peacegod? Is there a peacegod in the bible?

According to the Christian New Testament, which is are only rumors we have about this particular man named Jesus, the God Jesus was talking about is necessarily the God described in the Jewish Torah. Clearly the old war-god who demands blood sacrifices for the atonement of sin. And supposedly Jesus was the ultimate blood sacrifice offered up for this purpose.

I think its impossible to have a good life without God/heaven...and I think Jesus has done a lot for us...by coming and telling us about love.

I feel deeply sorry for any human who needs Jesus to know about love.

Where would mankind be without all the great souls? Still living in a cave? Would it have been a very slow walk towards good times?

I don't see where Jesus contributed to mankind's technological improvements on life.

With regard to the soulmate...then I fell that I´m part of the world, the big group of people on the planet...but still I´m missing a close companion (my soulmate)...my parents can´t fill that void...and I will not go on compromise with my fellings...but will live with that void...someday it will be fill with a soulmate i think...maybe I´m wrong...but until it is shown to be wrong...I will live with that felling...Its not a bad felling to live with, so...

Weren't you already married once? If so, who were you married to? Someone else's soulmate? And how could that have happened?

I think this (masculine and feminine) has to do with a book that I have read (a very good book about life).

If you want to read it then its free on the internet.

Here http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

From that web page:

" In 1908 a medium was contacted by intelligences from the spiritual world. The reason was that the transcendental world wished to make humanity acquainted with some facts regarding their origin, their relation to God and the battle between Light and Darkness - good and evil. The wish was also to inform about the true teachings of Christ freed from centuries of additions and distortions, as well as making known some of the divine laws which apply to all living beings in the universe."

I don't think Christianity supports the idea that mediums can contact the spiritual world. This sounds pretty fishy to me.

And just so you can get a felling of what the book is about I will point to this question and answer in the book.

Here http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a11.htm

Sounds like typical religious propaganda to me.

With regard to the different goals and desires in life...then I would prefer someone who shares my view on things...it would make everything mush easier...should we put children into this world? If she want a child and I don´t then we have a problem, so...


With regard to the questions...then I understand that they don´t make any sense if there is no God, so is there a God? If there is a God (or intelligent being "out" there) then I would say that this book I have link to is a very good bid.

Maybe the best bid we got here on earth.

And the good thing with this book is, that there are things in it that can be testet/observe (it make claims about the universe, but I´m not an astronomer, so...maybe the universe really looks like described in this book...I would love that...but I can´t say that it does, because I´m not an astronomer...but I believe it looks like that...why shouldn´t it look like that?)

Why should you need that book? What's wrong with the Christian Gospels and the supposed teaching of Christ? Was Christ such a failed teacher that someone else had to come along and write a better book?

I'm just asking.

With regard to Donald Trump then I understand your problems with him...I would rather have you as the president or someone like you.

I thank you for your confidence in me. Unfortunately I'm quite certain that I would do a far better job than Mr. Trump. The reason this is unfortunate is because even I don't have the experience to be running the most powerful nation on Earth, yet I'm quite confident that I would easily do a far better job than Trump, if only because I would appoint far wiser people to head-up the important offices in our government.

And yes...America is great...and thank you very mush for the prediction/wish...they will have a great time over there

If it were within my power everyone would have a great time always.

I´m not a religious person or maybe I am...but why is it a strange question to ask?

With regard to Christianity...was it not Paul who injected the thought into peoples mind that Jesus was a sacrificial lamb? Did Jesus not say...

But go and take to heart the sense of these words, My desire is for mercy, not offerings...Matthew 9,13

Where did Jesus get those words from? I think Jesus was very good at seeking the right words...

What was the jews waiting for? A sacrificial lamb? I don´t think so...

Has Isaiah 11,1 anything to do with what the jews was waiting for?

I don´t see anything here about a sacrificial lamb...

Is it a mixture of things? Good and bad? A peace-god and a war-god?

You must not kill...

I take this very litteral and to mean that I most not attack anybody...but if somebody attacks me...then I´m allowed to defend my self...what happens is not on me...but if I can defend my self without killing my brother/sister, then I should do that...

Have you not been touch or moved by Jesus in any way?

There was not mush loving going on at the time of Jesus...was there? And where are we now? Are we like Jesus or are Jesus like us? Who came first? Us or Jesus? What is love all about?

Very sad that they crucified him, because if they had not done that, then we would have had a better story to tell about him...did Jesus change the world? Has he touch a lot of people with his being? Was he a loving human being?

What do I believe in?



There are many great souls with various missions on earth...in the past...now...and in the future.

Who is writting the story on earth? Or what is? Love? Hate?

With regard to my "marriage", then we was not married...marriage is a earthly thing...

How should I know if she was my soulmate? The only thing I know is that she is a female, so...maybe she is my soulmate...someday I will find out who my soulmate is...but I still love her...things just went wrong between us...why? Long story...

With regard to the spiritworld...is God not a spirit...can we talk with God...is that Allowed? Is Christ a spirit? Where is Christ? In a book?

Was/is Christ a failed teacher? I don´t think so...

What is the good news? That God loves us? That God wants us to be kind to everybody? Its easy to find what you are seaching for, when you know what you are searching for...right? Its easy to be caught up in the world...

Was people (at the time of Jesus) caught up in a bad world? Did Jesus set people free?

With regard to the government I fully understand you...I think my government would be a government with musician at the top

And I´m all with you on this...

If it were within my power everyone would have a great time always.

[Divine Insight]

Have you not been touch or moved by Jesus in any way?

No. Absolutely not. To the contrary when reading the Bible when I come upon the story of Jesus I think to myself, "Finally, a half-decent-person". Someone that I can actually identify with in many ways. So in Jesus I saw me. Although, not in every detail to be sure. Jesus is actually asking people to leave their families to follow him. I would never do that. So there are things that Jesus is said to have done that I don't identify with. And of course, I could not have performed all the miracles he was supposedly able to perform, but those don't impress me in any case. And with further scrutiny I have sound reasons to question whether those claims are even true anyway.

So no, I don't see Jesus as being anything special. There are also other characters in history who were just as impressive or even more so. Think about Mahatma Gandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr. At least we know these people were real and the things they did were realistic. There are no supernatural rumors that they were born of a virgin woman and sent by God as his begotten sons.

In fact, if Jesus really was the begotten Son of God, then I'm not impressed with him at all. If that were the case I think he should have been able to do way better than he is rumored to have done.

As the "Son of God" I think Jesus was an extreme failure. And totally unimpressive.

There was not mush loving going on at the time of Jesus...was there? And where are we now? Are we like Jesus or are Jesus like us? Who came first? Us or Jesus? What is love all about?

The idea that there were no loving people in those days is, IMHO, ridiculous. Just because the story focuses on political turmoil doesn't mean the whole world was like that.

And what's the difference who came first? You either agree with the moral principles that Jesus stood for or you don't. And if you do, then it's you who is giving Jesus your seal of moral approval. In fact, how could it be any other way? If you didn't agree with the moral principles of Jesus you most likely wouldn't think he was so hot.

It's the fact that you support his moral values that makes him appear to be so great to you.

So really there is nothing you can do other than give Jesus your seal of moral approval. At least if you want to proclaim Jesus' morality to be so great. You can only say that if you first agree that it is.

Very sad that they crucified him, because if they had not done that, then we would have had a better story to tell about him...did Jesus change the world? Has he touch a lot of people with his being? Was he a loving human being?

Well this is a major theological problem Waterfall. You simply can't have Jesus being crucified by accident. (i.e. not being part of God's own plan).

You seem to be forgetting that according to the story of Jesus, Jesus was born of a virgin woman who was purposefully impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God. Thus Jesus' appearance and mission on earth was orchestrated and planned by God himself.

You can't have Jesus being crucified without God's approval. Why not? Because God is supposed to be omniscient. Also this God is supposed to even be able to protect you, a mere mortal human, from harm. Therefore we can't have this supposedly omnipotent God being unable to protect Jesus from being crucified. In fact, in the very story of Jesus God actually does protect the baby Jesus from being killed by King Herod thus demonstrating that when this God wants to protect Jesus he can without having to interfere with anyone's free will, etc.

So we can't have the crucifixion of Jesus being anything other than "God's Plan".

This is why the view that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God is so widely accepted in Christianity. The crucifixion of Jesus had to be part of God's Plan. Of course there are still tons of other problems associated with even this idea. But overall, we can't have Jesus being brutally crucified by anyone without God's approval.

So the crucifixion can't be viewed as simply as "sad event that wasn't meant to be" in this religion. Instead it's has to be the centerfold most important event. And the idea that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of man and make salvation possible is the idea that wins the day. And so Paul gets the Pulitzer prize for coming up with that script. And this is why Paul's writings make up about 75% of the New Testament.

What do I believe in?

There are tons of charlatans making big bucks on books and videos that proclaim to have the truth of reality. I watched the video you linked to, I'm not impressed. Have you also noticed that they support reincarnation? Where in the Bible did Jesus mention or imply reincarnation in any way?

There are many great souls with various missions on earth...in the past...now...and in the future.

Who is writting the story on earth? Or what is? Love? Hate?

The story appears to be a hodgepodge of happenstance to me. The guilty party for a lot of bad things that happen I would say is ignorance, stupidity, and greed. Unfortunately those traits will most likely win out over education, intelligence, and a desire to share.

But wouldn't this also be the case in a universe that is pure happenstance? If we actually lived in a world where education, intelligence, and a desire to share was WINNING, then we might have reason to imagine that their might be a God.

This argument that there appears to be so much evil in the world that there must be a God is kind of backwards isn't it?

And ironically many of the people who are standing up for human rights and making the world a better place are actually secularists.

Was/is Christ a failed teacher? I don´t think so...

Well, if we go by humanity in general he most certainly was a failed teacher. To begin with only about 1/3 of the people in the world even believe that Jesus was "The Christ". And most of them only do so because it's what they have been taught to believe, NOT because Jesus himself convinced them.

Moreover, of this 1/3 of the world's population that claim to believe in Christ very few actually agree on what Christ taught. They have dramatically different views and ideas of what Christ was trying to teach. So even the people who claim to believe in Jesus aren't in agreement with what he was supposedly teaching.

So I don't see how it can be said that he was anything but a failed teacher. Especially if he was sent by Almighty God with a message to all of humanity. He's already a major failure in that regard if he has only convinced 1/3 of the world's population. He would then have necessarily failed 2/3 of the world's population. How could that be seen as anything other than failure?

~~~~~~~

By the way, keep in mind that this is a debating website forum. The idea here is to point out logical flaws in claims being made. You have been making claims for why you think Jesus was special. I've been pointing out why I don't buy into those claims.

If we were having a normal discussion in a pub, I would not be arguing with you over your religious beliefs. I probably just say, "That's nice" when you make a religious claim about Jesus, and then I would try to CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

But here on the philosophy debate forum, I'm going to give you my reasons why I don't think your claims about Jesus hold any water.

[Waterfall]

Have you not been touch or moved by Jesus in any way?

No. Absolutely not. To the contrary when reading the Bible when I come upon the story of Jesus I think to myself, "Finally, a half-decent-person". Someone that I can actually identify with in many ways. So in Jesus I saw me. Although, not in every detail to be sure. Jesus is actually asking people to leave their families to follow him. I would never do that. So there are things that Jesus is said to have done that I don't identify with. And of course, I could not have performed all the miracles he was supposedly able to perform, but those don't impress me in any case. And with further scrutiny I have sound reasons to question whether those claims are even true anyway.

So no, I don't see Jesus as being anything special. There are also other characters in history who were just as impressive or even more so. Think about Mahatma Gandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr. At least we know these people were real and the things they did were realistic. There are no supernatural rumors that they were born of a virgin woman and sent by God as his begotten sons.

In fact, if Jesus really was the begotten Son of God, then I'm not impressed with him at all. If that were the case I think he should have been able to do way better than he is rumored to have done.

As the "Son of God" I think Jesus was an extreme failure. And totally unimpressive.

There was not mush loving going on at the time of Jesus...was there? And where are we now? Are we like Jesus or are Jesus like us? Who came first? Us or Jesus? What is love all about?

The idea that there were no loving people in those days is, IMHO, ridiculous. Just because the story focuses on political turmoil doesn't mean the whole world was like that.

And what's the difference who came first? You either agree with the moral principles that Jesus stood for or you don't. And if you do, then it's you who is giving Jesus your seal of moral approval. In fact, how could it be any other way? If you didn't agree with the moral principles of Jesus you most likely wouldn't think he was so hot.

It's the fact that you support his moral values that makes him appear to be so great to you.

So really there is nothing you can do other than give Jesus your seal of moral approval. At least if you want to proclaim Jesus' morality to be so great. You can only say that if you first agree that it is.

Very sad that they crucified him, because if they had not done that, then we would have had a better story to tell about him...did Jesus change the world? Has he touch a lot of people with his being? Was he a loving human being?

Well this is a major theological problem Waterfall. You simply can't have Jesus being crucified by accident. (i.e. not being part of God's own plan).

You seem to be forgetting that according to the story of Jesus, Jesus was born of a virgin woman who was purposefully impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God. Thus Jesus' appearance and mission on earth was orchestrated and planned by God himself.

You can't have Jesus being crucified without God's approval. Why not? Because God is supposed to be omniscient. Also this God is supposed to even be able to protect you, a mere mortal human, from harm. Therefore we can't have this supposedly omnipotent God being unable to protect Jesus from being crucified. In fact, in the very story of Jesus God actually does protect the baby Jesus from being killed by King Herod thus demonstrating that when this God wants to protect Jesus he can without having to interfere with anyone's free will, etc.

So we can't have the crucifixion of Jesus being anything other than "God's Plan".

This is why the view that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God is so widely accepted in Christianity. The crucifixion of Jesus had to be part of God's Plan. Of course there are still tons of other problems associated with even this idea. But overall, we can't have Jesus being brutally crucified by anyone without God's approval.

So the crucifixion can't be viewed as simply as "sad event that wasn't meant to be" in this religion. Instead it's has to be the centerfold most important event. And the idea that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of man and make salvation possible is the idea that wins the day. And so Paul gets the Pulitzer prize for coming up with that script. And this is why Paul's writings make up about 75% of the New Testament.

What do I believe in?

There are tons of charlatans making big bucks on books and videos that proclaim to have the truth of reality. I watched the video you linked to, I'm not impressed. Have you also noticed that they support reincarnation? Where in the Bible did Jesus mention or imply reincarnation in any way?

There are many great souls with various missions on earth...in the past...now...and in the future.

Who is writting the story on earth? Or what is? Love? Hate?

The story appears to be a hodgepodge of happenstance to me. The guilty party for a lot of bad things that happen I would say is ignorance, stupidity, and greed. Unfortunately those traits will most likely win out over education, intelligence, and a desire to share.

But wouldn't this also be the case in a universe that is pure happenstance? If we actually lived in a world where education, intelligence, and a desire to share was WINNING, then we might have reason to imagine that their might be a God.

This argument that there appears to be so much evil in the world that there must be a God is kind of backwards isn't it?

And ironically many of the people who are standing up for human rights and making the world a better place are actually secularists.

Was/is Christ a failed teacher? I don´t think so...

Well, if we go by humanity in general he most certainly was a failed teacher. To begin with only about 1/3 of the people in the world even believe that Jesus was "The Christ". And most of them only do so because it's what they have been taught to believe, NOT because Jesus himself convinced them.

Moreover, of this 1/3 of the world's population that claim to believe in Christ very few actually agree on what Christ taught. They have dramatically different views and ideas of what Christ was trying to teach. So even the people who claim to believe in Jesus aren't in agreement with what he was supposedly teaching.

So I don't see how it can be said that he was anything but a failed teacher. Especially if he was sent by Almighty God with a message to all of humanity. He's already a major failure in that regard if he has only convinced 1/3 of the world's population. He would then have necessarily failed 2/3 of the world's population. How could that be seen as anything other than failure?

~~~~~~~

By the way, keep in mind that this is a debating website forum. The idea here is to point out logical flaws in claims being made. You have been making claims for why you think Jesus was special. I've been pointing out why I don't buy into those claims.

If we were having a normal discussion in a pub, I would not be arguing with you over your religious beliefs. I probably just say, "That's nice" when you make a religious claim about Jesus, and then I would try to CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

But here on the philosophy debate forum, I'm going to give you my reasons why I don't think your claims about Jesus hold any water.

I think its difficult to say who have touch one...because if your parents have been touch by a person...and have change to the better...then you also have been touch by that person...through your parents...right?

In denmark there are not many people who are going to church (only birth, confirmation, marriage and death)...me including...but our community is build around Christianity.

And our priest (must of them) are nice people now...

Here Christianity is slowly changing...hell is there not many of us there are talking about...so...here you pretty mush can believe in what you want.

For me the virgin birth is just a way of telling something...something was going on with that child...he was sent from above...he had a divine mission...well...something was going on with that child...no smoke without a fire...does that make him special? In the eyes of God we are all special children...so...maybe Jesus love to God and his fellow man was greater than ours? Should we envy him or be happy about that? What is the true story about Jesus?

Maybe the book I have link to is telling the true story about Jesus? And us? There are no superstition in that book...no virgin birth...no walking on water...there are nothing of that kind...

Can you live without that book...of course you can...you have done it until now...I just "happens" to have read it and love the story/message...it make sence to me...

With regard to love...when you are forcing people to fight to the death (gladiator) or are going to war against everybody you don´t like, then I would say that you have a love-problem...

There was people (individuals) who love oneanother at that time...of course...but the big love...love everybody...was there many of those people (individuals) around? Was hate a good thing? Hate your enemies? Destroy them? Was there not a lot going on at that time?

I´m not a historian, so...

With regard to who came first...then we could ask...who has touch who? Are we just saying the same things that Jesus was saying? Do we know who Jesus has touch?

With regard to the theological problem...then Jesus chose (free will) not to run away from his enemies...he could have done that...but he didn´t...why not...because he didn´t fear death? Let them do there thing? I have done the best that I could? The truth will someday be known? What was going on in Jesus mind? Do things always go the way God wants them to? Free will? Is God only playing on the short road and not on the long road? The big picture?

Of course Jesus knew what was about to happen...because they where after him...but he couldn´t force them to see, so...

Its easy for us to say...why didn´t he say this or do that?

With regard to charlatans then I understand you...but as you can see...the book is all free...and there is nobody who is making any money of the book.

With regard to reincarnation then Jesus was only a man and did not know everything...maybe he would have talk about it if things had gone differently?

Some people are talking about reincarnation...what are we to believe? Or what are your thoughts about that Jesus?

Who knows what God plan with Jesus was?

With regard to happenstance then it does not win here in denmark and not anywhere else...in the long run education, intelligence, and a desire to share is WINNING.

But these thing takes time...

This argument that there appears to be so much evil in the world that there must be a God is kind of backwards isn't it?

Can you tell me some more about that argument? I don´t understand what you mean by backwards?

With regard to Christ teaching, then the earth is still spinning around, so...someday we all will be in the hands of God.

We will all have eyes to see with...

With regard to claims, then I don´t think I have made such claims???...I believe Jesus is a leader...nothing special about that...anyway...God is the supreme leader...and has given Jesus a task...maybe God also has given you a task? That wouldn´t surprise me

[Divine Insight]

With regard to claims, then I don´t think I have made such claims???...I believe Jesus is a leader...nothing special about that...anyway...God is the supreme leader...and has given Jesus a task...maybe God also has given you a task? That wouldn´t surprise me

"God is the supreme leader...and has given Jesus a task"

That's a claim right there. It's not only a claim about what God is and has done, but it's also a claim that basically asserts that a God exists. After all, how could a God that doesn't exist be the supreme leader?

This is often the biggest problem with people who support religious fables. They tend to make claims even when they don't realize they are doing it.

[Waterfall]

With regard to claims, then I don´t think I have made such claims???...I believe Jesus is a leader...nothing special about that...anyway...God is the supreme leader...and has given Jesus a task...maybe God also has given you a task? That wouldn´t surprise me

"God is the supreme leader...and has given Jesus a task"

That's a claim right there. It's not only a claim about what God is and has done, but it's also a claim that basically asserts that a God exists. After all, how could a God that doesn't exist be the supreme leader?

This is often the biggest problem with people who support religious fables. They tend to make claims even when they don't realize they are doing it.

I´m not sure I understand you...because I believe that it is so...it make sense to me...do I have to defend that? Why does it make sense to me? Either God exist or God does not exist...I choose to say that God exist...that makes me happy

What makes you happy? Friends? Good food? Musik? Books? Creativity? Games? Work? Schools? Hospitals? Knowledge? Wisdom? Truth? Peace? Justice? Compassion? Love? God?

[Bust Nak]

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world...

Well they don't have a choice, a hypothetical child does not exist yet to actually have a preference on the world. Now that I am born into this kind of world, I am happy that I was.

... Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

We do it because it is worth it. We do know the price and am willing to pay it. We know that our children might not think it's worth it when they do their own evaluation, after they've been brought into existence without consent, we are willing to risk it.

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Sure, I want to be born into such a world, in retrospect. Does that make me unintelligent in your eye?

[Waterfall]

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world...

Well they don't have a choice, a hypothetical child does not exist yet to actually have a preference on the world. Now that I am born into this kind of world, I am happy that I was.

... Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

We do it because it is worth it. We do know the price and am willing to pay it. We know that our children might not think it's worth it when they do their own evaluation, after they've been brought into existence without consent, we are willing to risk it.

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Sure, I want to be born into such a world, in retrospect. Does that make me unintelligent in your eye?

The children have a choice...or a voice...if we think about it...because we can place ourself with all the unborn children on earth.

If me saying no to life can save/prevent someone from a terrible life, then I would say no...

Its like me given "5 seconds" on earth so that this child don´t have to suffer...that I´m happy to give...because I´m going to die anyway.

I don´t need 5 seconds on earth.

If the price for me saying yes...is that some children (my brothers and sisters) are going to suffer...then I will say no...sorry...but no...I don´t want your miserable offer.

You have to come up with something better for us all...