A changing timeless God?

[McCulloch]

Modern physics views the universe as being more than just energy and matter. Time and space are seen as being part of the universe, not the framework that the universe exists within but part of the fabric of the universe itself.

It has been claimed that God is the creator of the universe. In order to be the universe's creator, God must therefore exist somehow beyond time and space.

But it is also claimed that God changes his plans; that God has repented of certain decisions or actions that he had made. How is this possible?

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?

[JP Cusick]

Ok let's cast away these "dictionary-Gods". Oxford and Merriam-Webster clearly don't know as much as you do about the English language. So please, share some of your endless linguistic mastery. What does "miracle" mean?

I do not agree to throw out the dictionaries, but just that the dictionaries must not be regarded as our Lords and Masters.

As to miracles - then I am uncertain as to its meaning.

That word has been thrown around with such contempt and misused with total disregard, that the real meaning has been lost.

As in life itself is a miracle.

I just reject the notion that a miracle is supernatural because nothing can violate the laws of nature and thereby nothing can violate the laws of God.

Child birth is another miracle, even if science can explain the dynamics it still is a miracle.

Humanity is simply growing up, so a child sees things as amazing and supernatural while as an adult we learn to see life more realistically

Says the guy who considers airplanes to be literal miracles. Does that place you in the first category as a child that sees things as amazing and supernatural?

I hope so.

A child of God.

An airplane as a miracle seems very obvious to me.

The idea that a miracle has to be magic is the real nonsense.

Viewing the planet earth spinning around with invisible forces holding it perfectly in sequence is a truly fantastic miracle and to view this as not being supernatural is taking the dictionary-Gods into the absurdities.

So you believe the Earth spinning is a supernatural phenomenon? Did you perhaps skip science in school? Is science another unholy idol like the dictionary-Gods?

What I really say is that nothing is supernatural, because a miracle is very natural, or perhaps a miracle is when something is extremely natural.

The earth in space is a BIG miracle.

We could envision some scientist in the future who learn how to go back in time as like on Star Trek, so Doctor McCoy and MR Spock go back in time to the 1st century and they heal the sick and raise a few people from the dead and walk on water and changed water into wine, and they do it all with super or advanced technology, and of course Captain Kirk gets all the glory as the people see Kirk as being the God or the Son of God in person.

Yes except Jesus did it without the help of advanced technology. Which means he broke the rules and restrictions of the universe that you said he would never do in post 2.

We really do not know that Jesus did not use technology, because God is advanced.

The word technology does not have to mean a machine.

One thing I liked about the "Harry Potter" stories is that it changes the view of magic into realistic devices, because a magic wand can have advanced technology built within, and so can a broom stick or magic potions.

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

- Jesus broke these rules and restrictions when he turned water into wine

Already said - water into wine is not such a big deal.

And there have been long centuries of debates as to the type or quality of that wine from water, because there is no reason to conclude that Jesus turned the water into vintage "Boons Farm Wine" or was it some Mad Dog wine? or did Jesus simply turn the water into grapefruit juice without fermentation?

It is possible that He just poured some flavoring into the water as like "Cool Aid" which a little powder turns a big jug into some fancy juice.

As such Jesus did not break any such rules, and His miracles might be easily explained or reproduced in a science lab - if one dared?

[Justin108]

Ok let's cast away these "dictionary-Gods". Oxford and Merriam-Webster clearly don't know as much as you do about the English language. So please, share some of your endless linguistic mastery. What does "miracle" mean?

I do not agree to throw out the dictionaries, but just that the dictionaries must not be regarded as our Lords and Masters.

No one on this site has ever suggested we regard the dictionary as our Lords and Masters.

As to miracles - then I am uncertain as to its meaning.

Ok so you don't even know what "miracle" means, yet you have thus far called several things miracles. How can you call something a miracle when you literally don't know the meaning of the word?

That word has been thrown around with such contempt and misused with total disregard...

Says the guy who loves throwing the word around and calling just about everything remotely impressive a miracle. Do you know what "irony" means at least?

I just reject the notion that a miracle is supernatural because nothing can violate the laws of nature and thereby nothing can violate the laws of God.

Please explain how Jesus turning water into wine was not a violation of the laws of nature?

Child birth is another miracle, even if science can explain the dynamics it still is a miracle.

Earlier in this post you admitted that you do not know what a miracle is, and here you are calling things miracles again.

An airplane as a miracle seems very obvious to me.

"That word has been thrown around with such contempt and misused"
- JP Cusick (2017)

"An airplane as a miracle seems very obvious to me"
- also JP Cusick (2017)

What I really say is that nothing is supernatural, because a miracle is very natural

Please explain how turning water into wine is "very natural"

We really do not know that Jesus did not use technologyl

Wait... wait... are you seriously suggesting the possibility that Jesus used some kind of water-into-wine machine? Ok I'm opening a post about this one. Quote of the day, JP. Well done.

The word technology does not have to mean a machine.

Ok what non-machine piece of technology do you suggest Jesus used to turn water into wine?

One thing I liked about the "Harry Potter" stories is that it changes the view of magic into realistic devices, because a magic wand can have advanced technology built within, and so can a broom stick or magic potions.

Ok I think we're getting there... So Jesus used a technologically advanced magical wand to turn water into wine? In an unrelated question, is marijuana legal in your state?

- Jesus broke these rules and restrictions when he turned water into wine

Already said - water into wine is not such a big deal.

Oh ok. Can you do it?

It is possible that He just poured some flavoring into the water as like "Cool Aid" which a little powder turns a big jug into some fancy juice.

You're my new favorite person, JP. Never change.

[JP Cusick]

Ok let's cast away these "dictionary-Gods". Oxford and Merriam-Webster clearly don't know as much as you do about the English language. So please, share some of your endless linguistic mastery. What does "miracle" mean?

I do not agree to throw out the dictionaries, but just that the dictionaries must not be regarded as our Lords and Masters.

As to miracles - then I am uncertain as to its meaning.

That word has been thrown around with such contempt and misused with total disregard, that the real meaning has been lost.

As in life itself is a miracle.

I just reject the notion that a miracle is supernatural because nothing can violate the laws of nature and thereby nothing can violate the laws of God.

Child birth is another miracle, even if science can explain the dynamics it still is a miracle.

To follow up I found this link which gives a definition of "miracles" which aligns with my own view.

Link here = Definition of Miracles ~ Bible.org

And I would hope that this offering of a definition would satisfy the Gods of the dictionaries as well.


------------------------------------------

It is possible that He just poured some flavoring into the water as like "Cool Aid" which a little powder turns a big jug into some fancy juice.

You're my new favorite person, JP. Never change.

It would be refreshing if everyone can see the true irony of this - that what is seen as a miracle can have a very real explanation, and yet still be a miracle.

Jesus could have had a pouch in His cloak that contained a mixture like "Cool Aid" and mixed it with the water and that became the wine.

And not to continue criticizing the quality of the wine in those days, but the quality of the water was even worse, so just add a dose of tangy flavoring would indeed work wonders - would work a miracle.

[Justin108]

To follow up I found this link which gives a definition of "miracles" which aligns with my own view.

So as long as it aligns with your view, that means it's correct?

Link here = Definition of Miracles ~ Bible.org

Please explain why this link is more reliable than the Oxford or Merriam-Webster?

And I would hope that this offering of a definition would satisfy the Gods of the dictionaries as well.

So basically, if you personally agree with a definition, then the definition is correct. If you do not agree with the definition, then it's nothing but a "dictionary God".

It is possible that He just poured some flavoring into the water as like "Cool Aid" which a little powder turns a big jug into some fancy juice.

It would be refreshing if everyone can see the true irony of this - that what is seen as a miracle can have a very real explanation, and yet still be a miracle.

If all Jesus did was use Cool Aid then this was nothing but a deceptive means to trick us. Is that what Jesus did? Trick people into believing he could do miracles?

[JP Cusick]

If all Jesus did was use Cool Aid then this was nothing but a deceptive means to trick us. Is that what Jesus did? Trick people into believing he could do miracles?

That was no trick nor deception, and it is only an alternate explanation as we really do not know how it happened.

You are trying to insist that the miracle had to be an act of magic, and Jesus did not use magic, and He did not teach His followers to use magic.

The idea of magical miracles comes from old Egypt and Babylon - but magic does not come from the Gospel.

[Justin108]

That was no trick nor deception, and it is only an alternate explanation as we really do not know how it happened.

Are you aware of any wine that is made by adding a powdered substance to water?

John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

The act of turning water into wine was a sign of Jesus' glory. How is making Kool-Aid a sign of glory?

The idea of magical miracles comes from old Egypt and Babylon - but magic does not come from the Gospel.

So everything in the Bible from the resurrection of Jesus, the splitting of the Red Sea, the talking donkey, the global flood, walking on water... all of these are perfectly natural events?

[JP Cusick]

Are you aware of any wine that is made by adding a powdered substance to water?

Well that brings us back again to the dictionary Gods.

So what kind or quality of wine was there in the 1st century.

So "Cool Aid" could be equivalent to non-alcoholic sweet Chardonnay white wine, with a taste of bitter herbs (note that many people like the bitter heard taste).

John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

The act of turning water into wine was a sign of Jesus' glory. How is making Kool-Aid a sign of glory?

I really said a powder as like "Kool Aid" because there are patent and trademark restriction of that actual product.

So in the 1st century no one had ever heard of a powdered drink and they would view it as a miracle which it would be.

If they saw an airplane then that would have been seen as a miracle too, and yes it would be a miracle indeed.

It is wrong to view a miracle as magic when a miracle is not magic.

:nerd2:

The idea of magical miracles comes from old Egypt and Babylon - but magic does not come from the Gospel.

So everything in the Bible from the resurrection of Jesus, the splitting of the Red Sea, the talking donkey, the global flood, walking on water... all of these are perfectly natural events?

They were miracles yes, they were all natural yes, but they were not magic.

[Justin108]

Are you aware of any wine that is made by adding a powdered substance to water?

Well that brings us back again to the dictionary Gods.

So what kind or quality of wine was there in the 1st century.

So "Cool Aid" could be equivalent to non-alcoholic sweet Chardonnay white wine, with a taste of bitter herbs (note that many people like the bitter heard taste).

So at this point, you're redefining everything until it fits your preferred narrative. Do you have any substance to your argument? Anything more than speculation? Anything more than "what if the wine was just Kool-Aid"?

John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

The act of turning water into wine was a sign of Jesus' glory. How is making Kool-Aid a sign of glory?

I really said a powder as like "Kool Aid" because there are patent and trademark restriction of that actual product.

So in the 1st century no one had ever heard of a powdered drink and they would view it as a miracle which it would be.

Adding powder to water is a miracle...?

So everything in the Bible from the resurrection of Jesus, the splitting of the Red Sea, the talking donkey, the global flood, walking on water... all of these are perfectly natural events?

They were miracles yes, they were all natural yes, but they were not magic.

Please explain how it is natural for a donkey to talk

[bluethread]

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?

It is called literary context. One of the limitations of communication is that no statement is absolute. The audience must be taken into consideration. Adonai does not change in essence. He has established principles that govern His creation, some general, others conditional. In order to explain the exceptions to these principles, in a narrative, one must find a way to express those exceptions in a way that the audience can understand. One of the literary tools for doing that is anthropomorphism. When Adonai's plan includes an exception to a principle, or a condition changes, Adonai is said to have repented, as a man might do. However, unlike man, Adonai is not subject to the principle, the principle is subject to Adonai.

[JP Cusick]

Do you have any substance to your argument? Anything more than speculation? Anything more than "what if the wine was just Kool-Aid"?

All that is necessary is to debunk a thing one time, as I do not need to debunk the claim over and over again - once is enough.

Changing water into wine is not a big deal, and in the 1st century it was even less of a deal.

If we look at the story as told in the Bible then the people did not seem so surprised and they went on with their party, and no one saw the boy Jesus as some magician or mystic because that is not what happened

If you are still determined to claim that the water into wine was magic then that is up to you to prove, because a miracle is not to be magic.

Adding powder to water is a miracle...?

No, it is just an alternative interpretation of that event.

My point was and remains that a true miracle is totally natural, and particularly that a miracle is not to be magical.

And maybe it was not powder, as He might have had a bottle of 100 proof grain alcohol in His pocket and that spiked the water just fine for the party.

There is just no reason to view water into wine as magic, while it can still be a miracle.

Please explain how it is natural for a donkey to talk

That is a separate subject, so there are many alternative interpretations for that too.

The donkey could just be like Jonah and the big fish as an old Jewish fable which was never meant to be taken literally. Both Jonah and the donkey are fables like "Jack and the Beanstalk" or "King Arthur and the Round Table", as they are not intended to be taken as literally true when they are just fables, see Titus 1:14

Or the donkey could be a metaphor of a stubborn person, and I know people who I say would easily fit that description of them being a human donkey. ](*,)