Sacrifice and free will

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Wootah
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Sacrifice and free will

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

How do we know an object has free will?

One way is to observe it and it's choices. But if you observe the object doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't seem to have free will.

But if you observe the object sacrificing, giving up something in the hope for something better, is that not a good indication of free will?

Eg: If I eat food all the time then I am probably a slave to food and not able to display free will in this area. But if I can demonstrate that I don't need to eat all the time and can choose what to eat and more importantly not eat - doesnt that display free will?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #11

Post by 2ndRateMind »

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

Hmmm. I don't think you have ever experienced such a dilemma. One day, maybe, if ever you are asked not just to risk, but to give up your life for some cause you think greater than yourself, then maybe you will understand. And why what Jesus did was a sacrifice, and not a cynical bid for glory.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Post #12

Post by 2ndRateMind »

mgb wrote: Yes, I think a deliberate choice, over and above the inertia of the crowd, or habit, is free will.
To be sure, deliberation is (to my mind) a critical component of free will. Decisions we take automatically and without reflection are more likely down to our biologies, psychologies and prejudices than to our rationality. But, we can develop the ornery predisposition to reject the conventional wisdom, and develop the habit of contrariness. If we do so, does that then make us 'free'?

Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #13

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Wootah wrote:
Eg: If I eat food all the time then I am probably a slave to food and not able to display free will in this area. But if I can demonstrate that I don't need to eat all the time and can choose what to eat and more importantly not eat - doesnt that display free will?
So, I think freedom of will in this area is best demonstrated by those who are vegetarian or vegan for political, rather than moral, reasons. If you hate the thought of animals dying, or the slaughter of calves for dairy purposes, that is one thing. But it is a visceral, despising thing. And not a free will thing, as I understand the term.

But what is free is to consider the impact the meat and dairy industries have on the world, and to reject one's own consumption of their produce out of a disinclination to contribute to that impact.

I speak, I should make clear, as a confirmed omnivore, whose budget and dietary predilections do not allow for such a principled stance. But I have great respect for those stronger in this area than I am.

Best wishes, 2RM
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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #14

Post by William »

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]
If I eat food all the time then I am probably a slave to food and not able to display free will in this area. But if I can demonstrate that I don't need to eat all the time and can choose what to eat and more importantly not eat - doesnt that display free will?
No. It simply displays will. It does not display 'free'.

One has to take into account ones surrounding reality. You make choices through will. There is no requirement for the additional word "free" to be place in front of the word "will".

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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #15

Post by Wootah »

William wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Wootah]
If I eat food all the time then I am probably a slave to food and not able to display free will in this area. But if I can demonstrate that I don't need to eat all the time and can choose what to eat and more importantly not eat - doesnt that display free will?
No. It simply displays will. It does not display 'free'.

One has to take into account ones surrounding reality. You make choices through will. There is no requirement for the additional word "free" to be place in front of the word "will".
It does seem redundant. I'll continue to use free will because i am used to it.
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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #16

Post by 2ndRateMind »

[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

It seems we have arrived at a philosophical point. Hooray!

Seems to me that you can have the will, but not the freedom. Any alcoholic will tell you this, that they recognise drinking too much is bad, but that they are powerless to alter their habit. And that is an internalised addiction, taking no account of those societies where the various forms of political oppressions are relevant.

And you can have the freedom, but not the will. Any semi-intelligent person can tell you that they could have had a lucrative career as an accountant, (which, after all, only really requires the capacity to add and subtract, and the knowledge of when to do which), but they preferred a different life, as a sea surfer, maybe, or a nurse, or both.

But to be free, and have the will, simultaneously! That is how any of us small individuals effect the necessary activities to change the world, for better or worse, but ideally, one hopes, for the better. A true demonstration of free will, it seems to me, is to exhibit the free, willful capacity to disregard one's own direct interests in the pursuit of the common good. If we all could, and did, do that, we might all be living in a better world.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Post #17

Post by Dimmesdale »

Divine Insight wrote:
2ndRateMind wrote: As for Jesus and the Gospels, then there is the passion in Gethsemane to consider. He clearly did not want to die, but recognised that God wanted that of Him, for the greater good. And, to my mind at least, to be prepared to die for one's beloved is the greatest demonstration of love, and the greatest demonstration of freedom from one's own concerns, that one can hope to ask for.
For me the major problem with this is that there are many people who would gladly do what Jesus had supposedly done.

Not only decent people, but even selfish people.

First off, let's think about decent people. I've met many people who would gladly die if they knew that their death would result in freeing the world from pain and suffering. Heck, I'd offer myself up for that sacrifice if I thought it would really result in a peaceful loving world for everyone else.

But now let's turn to selfish people.

How many selfish people would jump at the chance to do what Jesus supposedly did?

What do they have to do? Offer themselves up to be crucified and die for three days. Then after those three days are over they are risen and taken up into heaven to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

How many greedy selfish people would turn down an offer like that?

Not too many.

In fact, if this offer was made to the general public there would be long lines of people begging for the job.

Some of them might actually have good intentions thinking that they would somehow be making a sacrifice so others could live. But many of them wouldn't even be concerned with who they might save. Just being resurrected after they did this and taken up into heaven to be given the position of King of Kinds and Lord of Lords would be enough incentive for them. They would jump at the chance.

In fact, how can that even be called a sacrifice? What did Jesus sacrifice?

Life? Nope. He was rewarded with eternal life.

Did he sacrifice authority, or position of power?

Nope. To the contrary during his life on earth he had no authority or any position of power. He was only granted that after he made his so-called "sacrifice".

I don't even see how what Jesus did could be called a sacrifice. What exactly was it that he supposedly sacrificed? Apparently nothing.

Christians keep saying that Jesus died for our sins, but what kind of a hypocritical religion is this when they simultaneously claim that Jesus isn't even dead, but instead he's alive and well as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

How in the world does that amount to a 'sacrifice'?

Who wouldn't jump at a chance to do that? :-k

Good people would jump at the chance to do it thinking that they might help others in the process. Bad people would jump at the chance to do it simply because the rewards far outweigh the momentary discomfort.

I can't imagine anyone refusing to do what Jesus had supposedly done given the supposed results.

It would hardly qualify as a sacrifice if a soldier gets killed in action, only to be revived and sent back home 3 days later to become the King of the country he was fighting for.

If every solider thought that would happen if they are killed in the line of duty they'd be screaming at the enemy, "Shoot me! Shoot me!".

The idea that Jesus made a sacrifice for mankind is utterly ridiculous based on what supposedly happened after he died. Who wouldn't trade places with Jesus? You'd become the King of Kings and Lord of Lords instead of having to wallow in shame at Jesus' feet. A person would need to be crazy not to want to swap roles.
A lot of Christians believe that Jesus not only physically suffered and died on the cross, but that he experienced Hell for us. (Father, Father why have you forsaken me!?)

I can understand the premise well enough. Not only did he taste Hell for every person that he saved, but he was abandoned and crushed by His own Father! Given the type of eternal, perfect relationship he had with Him previously, this was even a worse kind of Hell! According to Christians (which I was for a while..).

So, yeah, there's that element of sacrifice. The wrath of God was supposedly in the cup that Jesus asked to be spared from drinking in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Just a heads up so you can be clued in to what many Christians believe, even if you disagree which I'm sure you will.....

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Post #18

Post by bluegreenearth »

The concept of libertarian freewill appears to be an illusion. This is fairly easy to demonstrate:

1. Consider any choice you've made using what you believe to be your freewill.
2. Regardless of the choice you made, what was the reason you made that choice?
3. If you gave a reason, your choice was obviously determined by that reason.
4. If you had no reason for choosing as you did, then your choice was randomly determined.
5. Therefore, your choices are either determined by reasons or randomly determined.

As such, the perception that you have the freewill to choose is an illusion because your choices are always either determined by your reasons or they are randomly determined. I am unable to figure out a 3rd option that would permit you the libertarian freewill to choose in some other way than you did. For instance, if I deliberately make a choice that goes against my own reasoning, there would be a reason for me to choose based on contradictory reasoning; in which case my choice would be determined by that reason instead of the better reason. If I deliberately make a random choice, then I would have some reason which determined me to make a random choice and that choice would be randomly determined. If you believe this assessment is incomplete and that there is a way to demonstrate the existence of libertarian freewill, I'd be happy to consider it.

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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #19

Post by Menotu »

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]
How do we know an object has free will?
We don't. We only think that because we're told and we can't see the future (well, not all of us anyway).
One way is to observe it and it's choices.
It's not a thing that can be observed. It can be thought to be observed by seeing actions, but you can't see/understand what goes in to those actions (ie if they are acting only on their own accord or being forced to act by unseen forces).
But if you observe the object doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't seem to have free will.
Maybe. Or maybe it simply likes doing those things over and over again?
But if you observe the object sacrificing, giving up something in the hope for something better, is that not a good indication of free will?
Maybe. Or maybe it's being forced to do that in ways you can't see or understand.
If I eat food all the time then I am probably a slave to food and not able to display free will in this area. But if I can demonstrate that I don't need to eat all the time and can choose what to eat and more importantly not eat - doesnt that display free will?
If you're a slave to food, I'd think you'd eat yourself to death, not just eat all the time.
Simply making what you may think are your own choices may be free will, but how do you know someone/thing isn't acting upon you to fool you in to thinking you have free will?

Free will is a means for people to think they're separate from animals or better than something. It's simply what we 'think' we have, and have to way of proving otherwise so we assume it's a fact.
It may very well be a fact, but there's no way to prove it. You only believe in.

Let's look at Judas. People said he willing betrayed Jesus yadda yadda yadda. But if he didn't, someone else had to. Why? In order to fulfill a plan. Whomever that person was gonna be (Judas, Peter, Walter, Desiree, whomever), they didn't seem to have free will as they had to play a part in a greater story.

Maybe people have free will but not at every occasion? Maybe they have 99% free will but at certain times they have to act a certain way for a reason (grander and unknown to us). If that's the case, can it be said they truly have free will, or mostly have it?

Or maybe some have it and other don't?

Maybe it's not that black and white?

koko

Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #20

Post by koko »

Divine Insight wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

What actions would indicate free will for you?
I think the concept of free will is pretty much in the same camp with solipsism. In other words, it cannot be shown to be true or false.

I don't think any action could indicate that any free will is in effect. Anything anyone does could just as easily be due to free will or logical determinism.

In fact, it's pretty hard to make a case for free will, even in terms of totally abstract soul.

Let's assume that human bodies are controlled by non-physical spiritual souls that have some other-world existence. Then the question would be whether or not those other-world souls could themselves have free will? What would it even mean to have free will. What is it that is making a free will choice? And what would that entity truly be free from?


As one who has had a very painful and tragic life, I have never been one to claim there is such a thing as free will. If there was such a thing in everyone's life as some claim, then there would be no abortion victims. Every fetus would be able to walk out of those procedures and all would go on to live fulfilled lives.

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