Sacrifice and free will

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Wootah
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Sacrifice and free will

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

How do we know an object has free will?

One way is to observe it and it's choices. But if you observe the object doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't seem to have free will.

But if you observe the object sacrificing, giving up something in the hope for something better, is that not a good indication of free will?

Eg: If I eat food all the time then I am probably a slave to food and not able to display free will in this area. But if I can demonstrate that I don't need to eat all the time and can choose what to eat and more importantly not eat - doesnt that display free will?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #2

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

I think a person doing different things in very similar situations would be better explained by free will than determinism. I would guess that a determinist might respond that the nature of a being's decision is so complex that no two situations would really be that similar, so we can't say that these observations are good indications of free will.

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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #3

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 2 by The Tanager]

Yes I would agree.

This thread is looking at what types of actions would tend towards showing free will and the only action types I can think of are sacrificial actions (which is pretty cool).
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #4

Post by Divine Insight »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 2 by The Tanager]

Yes I would agree.

This thread is looking at what types of actions would tend towards showing free will and the only action types I can think of are sacrificial actions (which is pretty cool).

Why would a sacrificial action imply free will?

Anyone who commits a sacrificial action is no doubt doing it because they feel that it's the "right" thing to do at the time. And that can be based solely on pure logical reasoning. And pure logical reasoning can indeed be determined by how the person's brain is wired and what they have come to believe over the course of their life.

Let's keep in mind also that many times when a person "sacrifices" their life it wasn't necessarily their intent to do so. In fact, if they had actually pre-planned the event then it would actually be suicide, even if planned for a good cause.

But most sacrifices are done in the spare of the moment without much planning at all.

An actual bad example of a "sacrifice" would be something like a firefighter, or parametric rescue working loosing their life unintentionally while trying to save other lives. We may honor those loses as "sacrifices", but let's face the truth, the people who lost their lives in those situations never intended to die in the process. They were simply willing to take that risk and unfortunately things didn't turn out as planned.

A better example of a sacrifice is when a solider throws his body over a hand grenade in an effort to spare the rest of his comrades. That would be a sacrifice that is made in extreme desperation in the heat of battle. But I wouildn't see this as an indication of free will. It could still be the result of pure logical thinking.

The infamous crucifixion of Christ to save mankind was certainly no indication of free will. There wasn't much Jesus could do about it. He didn't have any say in the matter. I personally wouldn't even consider that to be a sacrifice. If it was pre-planned it was a heinous suicide. And if it wasn't planned, then why call it a sacrifice? We don't typically consider people who were brutally murdered beyond their control to have sacrificed themselves.

And all petty sacrifices, like dieting to lose weight, or working-out hard to build muscles or win a competition can hardly be seen a sacrifices. Again, pure logical determinism works for that just fine.

So no, I don't see where sacrifices would be any indication of free will.

In fact, most sacrifices are done in extreme duress when there simply is no other choices available. They are more acts of desperation than anything else. They would only be done when free will choice was no longer available.

After all, if you had a problem and you could either solve it via constructive productive means, or you could solve it by making a painful sacrifice, which would you chose if you had a free will choice?

I think a person would need to be crazy to choose sacrifice over a constructive productive solution. So making a sacrifice indicates that a person is at the end of their rope as far as free will is concerned anyway. If anything, sacrifice would be an indication of no free will at all.
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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #5

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

What actions would indicate free will for you?
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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #6

Post by Divine Insight »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

What actions would indicate free will for you?
I think the concept of free will is pretty much in the same camp with solipsism. In other words, it cannot be shown to be true or false.

I don't think any action could indicate that any free will is in effect. Anything anyone does could just as easily be due to free will or logical determinism.

In fact, it's pretty hard to make a case for free will, even in terms of totally abstract soul.

Let's assume that human bodies are controlled by non-physical spiritual souls that have some other-world existence. Then the question would be whether or not those other-world souls could themselves have free will? What would it even mean to have free will. What is it that is making a free will choice? And what would that entity truly be free from?

Let's say that we are "free-will souls". What would that even mean? Let's say that I freely chose support everything I believe to be "good", and I reject everything I believe to be "bad".

There are several problems with this. The most obvious is that if I am freely choosing this then why is that? If that's who I fundamentally am, then could I have made any other choice? :-k

And if some other other-worldly soul chooses evil over good, then why did they make that choice? If they did so because that's who they fundamentally are, then how can it be said that they had any free will choice in the matter? And if that's not who they fundamentally are, then why would they make a choice they don't fundamentally truly want to chose?

There are so many problems with the whole idea of free will. What is it that is making the so-called free will choice?

I've often asked this deeply philosophical question. Have I freely chosen to be a good person? Or is that just who I basically am, in which case I really had no choice in the matter after all.

I would be thrilled to learn that free will somehow actually exists and that I am somehow responsible for having made the choices I've made. If that's true, then I'm in pretty good shape if I am ever judged on how well I used my free will choice. :D

But one thing that seem quite problematic for me is that I never had any desire to do bad or nasty things. So it's not like those were viable choices. I mean, why would I chose to do things that I don't like or want to do?

It seems to me that I can hardly take credit for being a person who desires things to be nice and good. That's just what I have always been attracted to. I don't care much for violence, I don't like bad and nasty things, and so I have always avoided those things as much as possible throughout my life.

Was that a result of free will choice? Or was this a result of something beyond my control? (i.e. my fundamental nature)

Did I really have any choice in becoming who I am? I'm not convinced that I did.

But yeah, if I can somehow take credit for being who I am I'll be glad to do that. I just don't think it's that simple.

No one would like for free will to exist more than me. That would mean that I'm actually responsible for the choices I've made. That would be great. I'll be glad to have that become my reality. :D

But then how do we explain the people who made bad choices? Why would they have done that if they truly had free will? Why would anyone freely choose to do bad things unless they are fundamentally a bad "soul". But if they are fundamentally a bad "soul" then so much for any free will. How could they be said to have free will if they are fundamentally bad?
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Re: Sacrifice and free will

Post #7

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

Wouldn't it have been simpler to say that you don't think any actions signify free will?

When you observe someone, given your views, how do you know what people are doing?

If someone like you is inately good
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Post #8

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Seems to me the capacity for sacrifice and freedom of will are closely entwined.

It is not logical to devote, say, 4% of one's income to charity. One would be individually for better off spending that 4% on oneself. But if we all devoted 4% of our income to help create a better world for everyone, then why, that is what we would achieve. And in the achievement, demonstrate that we are free of the entanglements and trappings of wealth.

As for Jesus and the Gospels, then there is the passion in Gethsemane to consider. He clearly did not want to die, but recognised that God wanted that of Him, for the greater good. And, to my mind at least, to be prepared to die for one's beloved is the greatest demonstration of love, and the greatest demonstration of freedom from one's own concerns, that one can hope to ask for.

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Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

2ndRateMind wrote: As for Jesus and the Gospels, then there is the passion in Gethsemane to consider. He clearly did not want to die, but recognised that God wanted that of Him, for the greater good. And, to my mind at least, to be prepared to die for one's beloved is the greatest demonstration of love, and the greatest demonstration of freedom from one's own concerns, that one can hope to ask for.
For me the major problem with this is that there are many people who would gladly do what Jesus had supposedly done.

Not only decent people, but even selfish people.

First off, let's think about decent people. I've met many people who would gladly die if they knew that their death would result in freeing the world from pain and suffering. Heck, I'd offer myself up for that sacrifice if I thought it would really result in a peaceful loving world for everyone else.

But now let's turn to selfish people.

How many selfish people would jump at the chance to do what Jesus supposedly did?

What do they have to do? Offer themselves up to be crucified and die for three days. Then after those three days are over they are risen and taken up into heaven to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

How many greedy selfish people would turn down an offer like that?

Not too many.

In fact, if this offer was made to the general public there would be long lines of people begging for the job.

Some of them might actually have good intentions thinking that they would somehow be making a sacrifice so others could live. But many of them wouldn't even be concerned with who they might save. Just being resurrected after they did this and taken up into heaven to be given the position of King of Kinds and Lord of Lords would be enough incentive for them. They would jump at the chance.

In fact, how can that even be called a sacrifice? What did Jesus sacrifice?

Life? Nope. He was rewarded with eternal life.

Did he sacrifice authority, or position of power?

Nope. To the contrary during his life on earth he had no authority or any position of power. He was only granted that after he made his so-called "sacrifice".

I don't even see how what Jesus did could be called a sacrifice. What exactly was it that he supposedly sacrificed? Apparently nothing.

Christians keep saying that Jesus died for our sins, but what kind of a hypocritical religion is this when they simultaneously claim that Jesus isn't even dead, but instead he's alive and well as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

How in the world does that amount to a 'sacrifice'?

Who wouldn't jump at a chance to do that? :-k

Good people would jump at the chance to do it thinking that they might help others in the process. Bad people would jump at the chance to do it simply because the rewards far outweigh the momentary discomfort.

I can't imagine anyone refusing to do what Jesus had supposedly done given the supposed results.

It would hardly qualify as a sacrifice if a soldier gets killed in action, only to be revived and sent back home 3 days later to become the King of the country he was fighting for.

If every solider thought that would happen if they are killed in the line of duty they'd be screaming at the enemy, "Shoot me! Shoot me!".

The idea that Jesus made a sacrifice for mankind is utterly ridiculous based on what supposedly happened after he died. Who wouldn't trade places with Jesus? You'd become the King of Kings and Lord of Lords instead of having to wallow in shame at Jesus' feet. A person would need to be crazy not to want to swap roles.
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Post #10

Post by mgb »

Yes, I think a deliberate choice, over and above the inertia of the crowd, or habit, is free will.

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