Isn't beseeching God or gods a form of self-service?

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2Dbunk
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Isn't beseeching God or gods a form of self-service?

Post #1

Post by 2Dbunk »

Prayer usually takes the form of asking for personal help. And prayers are offered to those in need of help, so long as it isn't the enemy or some foreign entity that worships a "false" god.


In wars between two Christian factions (7-years, Civil, WW-I , WW-II, etc.) both sides prayed for the same God to see it their way. Nuns prayed for a certain NFL or college team to win; children are taught to pray for their parents and close relatives (so as to continue and insure their security).


Questions for debate: Are all prayers answered as some theists claim? What about between two factions as mentioned above? What about prayers offered by both sides in another war between Islam and Christianity?

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Post #11

Post by jergarmar »

The answers thus far kind of miss the obvious followup to the OP's valid question:

Okay, so obviously not everyone's prayer will be answered, sometimes God answers "no", and so on.

But then what IS the point of prayer? How does the Bible even address it? A good place to start is, of course, the Lord's Prayer. It's amazing just how little of it has anything to do with "I want these external things to happen in such and such a way". As was mentioned, those are almost entirely subsumed in the clause "Your will be done". The rest of the prayer is about the relation between the supplicant and God, and between the supplicant and other people.

And indeed, even in the largest "prayer" book in the Bible -- that is, the Psalms -- most prayers do not merely ask God to destroy the supplicant's enemies, but the supplicant justifies such a prayer, saying that "we are your people", or calling on God to enact justice on a particularly evil group. The point is, even in the Psalms, the supplicants do not often make "naked" requests, but deliberately try to make the case of the validity of their prayer.

It this context, it kind of goes without saying that prayers about entire wars or nations or football teams are not at the heart of what "Christian prayer" even is supposed to do. Even prayers about wars in the Old Testament are usually extremely local, like "there's an army camped at our gates, please save us". By far the majority of prayers in the Bible address personal issues, whether about personal sin, personal mortal danger, or personal thanks for deliverance.

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Post #12

Post by Overcomer »

Prayer isn't about making selfish requests of God. I'm sure some people use it that way, but that's not the intention. Prayer, basically, is about communing with God. That's its primary function. It's about experiencing God in a personal way, feeling his love, his peace, his joy, his strength, etc. and receiving his wisdom about how to live life in this difficult world. And prayer also involves worship and thanksgiving, thanking God for blessings, expressing our adoration of him and his majesty.

We come to God in prayer to ask him for his will with regard to major decisions as Jesus did before choosing his disciples (Luke 6:12-13). We also pray when we engage in spiritual warfare, that is, fighting against the devil and his minions (Eph. 6:10-20) and, yes, sometimes that means asking him to intervene in a strong way against enemies. But we also pray for those enemies, that he can reach them and change them. We pray for him to strengthen and encourage others and to guide them. We pray to overcome temptation (See Matt. 26:41). We pray for healing, not just for ourselves, but others. In fact, prayer is, first and foremost, God-centered and, secondly, other-centered as much as it is about ourselves.

It isn't that we're telling God what the problems are because, as you rightly point out, 2Dbunk, God knows what the problems are better than we do. It's about us connecting with the Lord to talk about those problems so that we can learn his will and we can act in a way that is going to help with the problems, not add to them. And it isn't a matter of wasting his time and energy with our prayers. He's Almighty God, omniscient, omnipotent, etc., and he can handle everything all at once without breaking a sweat! He wants us to come to him in prayer all the time with anything we want to talk about. He cares about what matters to us because he cares about us. Paul says we're to pray without ceasing (1 Thess. 5:16-17). That tells us how much God wants to connect with us. Prayer is how we grow in our relationship with the Lord and, since relationship is what God is all about, we need to engage in it all the time.

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Re: Isn't beseeching God or gods a form of self-service?

Post #13

Post by marco »

2Dbunk wrote:
Are all prayers answered as some theists claim?
The interpreters of God would say that silence is an answer - so all prayers are heard, though many receive silence. St. Augustine, when he was a young sinner, prayed to be made pure, but not just yet. I imagine God smiled at this request.

People pray to be able to pray better. Thus most praying people pray for their entire life and unsupported reports have it that they continue to do so afterwards, but possibly as part of a choir. Heaven sounds like hell.

I like Voltaire's answer when a priest asked him if he wished to renounce Satan. He said "Now's not the time to be making enemies."


As for prayer being selfish - it depends how it is phrased. Certain monks were not allowed to request anything for themselves, but could ask for their brother monk. On seeing he had a mouse in his soup, a thoughtful monk asked: "I see that Brother Joseph lacks a mouse in his soup." I can't remember if that solved his problem or gave Bro Joseph one.

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Post #14

Post by 2Dbunk »

What about between two factions as mentioned above? What about prayers offered by both sides in another war between Islam and Christianity?
There is no way to confirm the following statement, but it has to be stated anyway: I venture to say that there probably was no time in recent history that so very many prayers were uttered for one man's demise. Indeed, there were about a dozen attempts on Adolph Hitler's life -- all failed! Even Hitler himself proclaimed that his mission on earth was confirmed by God with the failure of the Valkyrie plot. If God knew the outcome of the war, why did "He" let Europe be dragged further into disrepair for nearly another year? The Valkyrie effort (led by good Christians) could have saved that destruction and countless lives!

In the eleventh century, during the European king's invasions against the Muslims, Crusaders sat around camp fires praising Jesus and "His" imminent return, to be installed as King of Jerusalem when that city was taken. It is hard to say how many prayers were offered up in Christendom for their crusaders' success. In the thirteenth century, their prayers were finally answered -- in the form of Mongol interference from the east, coming down hard on Saladin. By that time, the kings had called their greatly fatigued men home, giving up the quest (though it was offered to them on a silver platter by the Mongols). The Templar Knights retreated to the island of Crete to await further orders -- which never came!

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Re: Isn't beseeching God or gods a form of self-service?

Post #15

Post by Menotu »

[Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]


To me, Christianity is, at its depth, selfish. It's not about getting others to heaven - making them free from sin - as much as it is getting themselves to heaven.
The religion is a cult (by definition of the word) that has been allowed to progress throughout history almost unabated.

At least how it's practiced now. Maybe it wasn't this way originally. But as of today, it's totally about itself, making money, gaining influence, etc. The followers are sheep who think it's about a greater good when it's really about them and their eternity. Whatever they may 'bring along for the ride' is good, but the main goal is their eternity.

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