Can we say anything about the beginning?

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Waterfall
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Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

According to the bible:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
How can this be the beginning?

What I am looking for is something like this:

In the beginning God was slepping and then (for some reason) God woke up and created a spirituel world.

This seems more like a beginning to me.

Maybe it is not so difficult to understand that before we can talk about creation something had to be in order. Like a man and a woman. We can have a man and a woman but if they do not unite there can be no talk about creating a baby. Maybe something like this was going on in the beginning. Something had to unite before it was able to create.

Can we come up with a better story than the one in the bible?

If I was God I would create a giant planet (it is a little difficult to make an infinite planet...) and settle down there forever.

What would you do?

There are those (the Hare Krishna movement) who think Krishna always has lived on a planet in the spirituel world, but if this is true then Krishna is not the creator of that world.

Is that not a problem? How big should this planet be? No thinking about anything? Things are just perfect?

To understand this way of thinking we could imagine a planet that always has been spinning around. This is not difficult. But to say how many times it has rotated is difficult = impossible. The only way to solve this problem is to create the planet and then count the number of rotation. Otherwice there can be no answer to the question other than an infinite number.

Maybe there is no beginning?

But if you have an infinite past would you then could do something that you not already have done? I will create a universe...well...that is fine...but have you not already done that? With an infinite past everything seems to have been done? Is there not a problem here? You can´t create anything because you have already created it? Or?

It would be much easyer if God popped out of nothing...but from nothing comes nothing...so...where should we put God? Why not put God in a slepping state and then wake God up? This would solve some problems...what have you done? Nothing! How is that? Well...I was slepping! How long time was you slepping? I was slepping until I woke up! If there was some kind of cycle we could answer the question...like...I fell aslep at 24.00 and woke up at 12.00 and fell aslep at 24.00...then we could say 12 hours...but without that cycle how answer the question?

Maybe you have a better beginning?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Waterfall wrote:

Do you think like the Hare Krishna movement that God always has lived on a planet in the sprituel world? That God has an infinite record of actions? Or?
No, that's just silly.
Waterfall wrote:

That God has an infinite record of actions?

Yes
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #12

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

I was just saying that God started out being in one state and then moved on to another state. In the first state there was no creation.
What has creation to do with his "state"?
Well, one might suggest that a God with a universe to sustain has a lot more to do than a God without such a universe.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #13

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 8 by 2ndRateMind]

I think there is something because there can be something. This is not much of an answer...but it leads to the question...could there be a God?

I would like there to be a God.

Otherwice I stand with a universe that just repeats itself. This I do not find very uplifting. Time and time again man will apear and it all starts over again. The suffering will never end. Do we not need someone to stop this madness? What is there to be happy about?

I am not sure it is relevant but I am inspired by this book:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a01.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko01.htm

What would be the perfect beginning?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #14

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 8 by 2ndRateMind]

I think there is something because there can be something. This is not much of an answer...but it leads to the question...could there be a God?
So, because there can be a God, there is a God? Nice idea.
Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 8 by 2ndRateMind]

I would like there to be a God.
A lot of us feel exactly the same way. The postmodern angst and lack of moral compass are grounded largely in the uncertainties caused by the erosion of the ancient authorities; such as the certainties of theology and other such time-tested teachings and traditions. Of course, these uncertainties in turn arose out of the enlightenment project, including the denial of the existence of the supernatural altogether, and for no better reason, so far as I can make out, than that science had developed no way of measuring it.

But the pendulum of human progress has a habit, like all pendulums, of tendency to swing. And it may well be that science, philosophy and religion are tending now towards a state of reconciliation, rather than the state of dispute that has been the story for the last couple of hundred years. I hope so, anyway.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #15

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

So God is not living on a planet in the spirituel world? Why is that silly?

Can you explain how God can have an infinite record of actions?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #16

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 9 by FWI]

How do you know that God was not slepping? This would give God the opportunity to wake up and start from nothing. Now God can think about how big heaven should be and things like that. Why not give God this opportunity? What has God created? Nothing? Or? Lets forget about the universe and take things step by step...

I am not into the bible, but as I understand things it talks about 6000 years of (human) existence, so...? You may say that the 7 day creation should not be taken literally and that is fine by me, but what about the rest? Is nothing to be taken literally? Did Adam live for 930 years? Was there a Noah? Is anything true?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #17

Post by Waterfall »

Waterfall wrote: [Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

So God is not living on a planet in the spirituel world? Why is that silly?

Can you explain how God can have an infinite record of actions?
I have to change the first question because it was not that you responded to...

So God has not always lived on a planet in the sprituel world? Why is that silly?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #18

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 14 by 2ndRateMind]

I am not sure I would go so far...

I was just saying that if it could not be there, it would not be there...hmm...what did I say :-)
I think there is something because there can be something. This is not much of an answer...but it leads to the question...could there be a God?
Does this leads to your question:
So, because there can be a God, there is a God? Nice idea.
I think it is a good question and idea.

Lets say there can be a God, does that mean there is a God?

When I think about this...I think...can there be a cake in my hand...yes...is there a cake in my hand...no...but sometimes there is a cake in my hand...so you just have to ask me when the cake is in my hand ;-)

How to think about this question?

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Re: Can we say anything about the beginning?

Post #19

Post by Waterfall »

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

To me it seems like there must have been a time when God just existed.

But you think that God always have been doing something?

How is that possible?

Lets say God created the universe today, then I will ask what God was doing yesterday? If God just existed then there is not much to say about yesterday. But you think that God was doing something? Why not create the universe yesterday or the day before and so on?

There most be a logical reason for this (absence of action).

In the beginning God just existed, but then (for some reason) God reacted and moved from just existing to creating things like the universe...

I am not sure that God has created the human body:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toward_the_Light
Thus, they created the first man, and hoped that he and his fellow men would be able to control the Darkness. But the humans were afraid, and escaped from the evil they felt from the Eldest. When they saw the sun, they held out their arms and asked for help. When the humans died, their spirits arose from their bodies, but the Eldest had not been able to give them Thought and a Will, and they continued as shadows — alive, but still dead, without consciousness. These zombies eventually outnumbered the living humans, wandering the earth like an army of ghosts. When the Eldest saw this, some of them felt terrible about what their experiments with the darkness had led to, and they pitied their creations. When God called for them, they asked Him to help their creatures, and God agreed to take responsibility for the humans. He gave all the dead spirits a spark of divine light, and gave them Will and Thought, and they became conscious beings. And God made laws for man's existence, ordaining that they again and again must incarnate on earth, to grow in maturity until they have learned to resist the darkness. Upon maturity, they will end their living on earth, and continue their development toward the kingdom of God.
According to this book human beings have lived on earth for about 5 million years:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page67.html

This seems more in tune with reality...

But what about the universe:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a03.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko03.htm

Do we live in a universe like this:

http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20univers ... l%204.html

I think it is a great idea and something that the scientist should investigate...

Can God create a universe like this?

If it is possible then we can move on and see if there is any evidence for it.

Is this not the way to go about such things?

At the moment we have an idea about the universe, but is it true? Why should the stars not be moving around something? The earth is moving around the sun and the sun is moving around somethings else. Maybe it all moves around a great sun? That is the idea in this book, but is it true?

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Post #20

Post by mgb »

2ndRateMind wrote:Well, to me it seems that we cannot have a God who exists in the three dimensions (or four if you count time) if we are not to run into the problem of infinite regress so often cited by our atheist friends. 'Everything has a cause, apart from the first cause, which is God' - 'OK but why does God not have a cause?' - 'He just doesn't, OK?' It's not a persuasive argument, to my mind.
The thing is, there must be something without a cause. If it is not God it is the energy of the universe. The fact is, there is something and something always has been. There must be uncaused being because there is being. Otherwise we must absurdly posit an infinite regress but it cannot be 'turtles all the way down'.

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