Veganism and animal rights

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Do you support or are you aligned with, in some capacity, any of the following and their worldviews?

Vegan and support animal welfare/rights
2
33%
Vegetarian and support animal welfare/rights
1
17%
Support animal welfare/rights in domestic life but still support consumption of animals and their products
2
33%
Equal animal welfare and rights in agriculture and domestic life but still support consumption of animals and their products
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

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Filthy Tugboat
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Veganism and animal rights

Post #1

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

Following many animal rights protests here in Australia over the weekend as well as worldwide over the last decade and longer a significant debate has been sparked in the media, in the social atmosphere, online and just about everywhere. The protest included a passive sit down in the middle of a busy city street for hours, activists chaining themselves to equipment in an abattoir to prevent use of the equipment and obstructing large trucks moving live chickens. Going to farms to film and photograph the establishments and their livestock.

I've seen quite a few responses to animal rights activism and I'll list a few here, do any of these arguments ring true, or false, for you, the reader?

Privacy should be respected for everyone, including farmers, nobody has the right to enter private property.

Farmers are already struggling in this country due to recent significant drought, flooding and bush fires, not to mention other challenges to running their business and the suicide rate has increased dramatically as a result. The added stress of dealing with this is literally killing people.

They sat down in a busy intersection for hours causing mayhem and massive traffic back ups, many people couldn't get to work and it even obstructed some emergency vehicles from getting to where they were needed.

The "activists" are only doing it for attention, it looks like most of them are wearing leather, the ones obstructing the trucks with livestock on may well have inadvertently killed those livestock by not allowing air circulation and keeping them from their destination where they can be fed and watered again. They don't care about animals.

More "leftist" nonsense with no respect for the economy, get a job you wan****!

Questions for debate, do animal rights activists and advocates have a valid point? Does the right to privacy trump animal rights? If farmers are going about their work illegally (breaching protection of animal laws), are these measures a reasonable response? What do you think of veganism and animal welfare?
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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2ndRateMind
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Post #11

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Filthy Tugboat wrote: [Replying to post 9 by 2ndRateMind]
Traditionally, widespread hunger, malnutrition and starvation are political consequences, not dietary. Most of human history meat has been somewhat rare, being consumed once every week or two, meat has always been expensive to produce, even before currency,...
Indeed. But the dietary consequences of the way we arrange to feed the world are economic, and are political. And, I dare say, moral and religious, also.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Filthy Tugboat
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Post #12

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

[Replying to post 11 by 2ndRateMind]

I don't recall suggesting that we do arrange how the world is fed.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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Post #13

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Filthy Tugboat wrote: [Replying to post 11 by 2ndRateMind]

I don't recall suggesting that we do arrange how the world is fed.
Well, the estimates vary, from 9 - 36 million people a year dying from hunger and hunger related disease. So maybe this is an area where we should arrange intervention, rather than leaving the distribution of food for the free market and the charitable impulses of good people alone.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Post #14

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

[Replying to post 13 by 2ndRateMind]

Sure, I'm all for people trying to solve world hunger but it doesn't have a strict baring on the subject matter. Most living in extreme poverty who are usually the people that are starving don't eat meat anyway as it is too expensive, or so I read somewhere but didn't look much into so that could be untrue.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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Post #15

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Filthy Tugboat wrote: [Replying to post 13 by 2ndRateMind]

Sure, I'm all for people trying to solve world hunger but it doesn't have a strict baring on the subject matter. Most living in extreme poverty who are usually the people that are starving don't eat meat anyway as it is too expensive, or so I read somewhere but didn't look much into so that could be untrue.
Ah! Well, I do not want to hijack your thread! But if you can feed 100 people on a vegetarian diet, as opposed to 10 people on a meat diet, for the same agricultural inputs, that strikes me as a convincing reason to be a vegetarian.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #16

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

[Replying to post 15 by 2ndRateMind]

I believe that is roughly the way of it. Conceptually, that is true, not to mention cutting animal agriculture has positive impacts on the environment, human health as well as animal welfare. Ideologically speaking, is there a more compassionate worldview than that proposed with veganism? I wonder if veganism is even truly compatible with capitalism? It asks for a different priority structure all together that's for sure but I imagine that could be assimilated into a capitalistic world view. Or could it?
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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Post #17

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Filthy Tugboat wrote: [Replying to post 15 by 2ndRateMind]

...I wonder if veganism is even truly compatible with capitalism? It asks for a different priority structure all together that's for sure but I imagine that could be assimilated into a capitalistic world view. Or could it?...
I think so. If more people demand a vegetarian/vegan diet, then that is what the market will supply. If more people demand a meat diet, that also is what the market will supply. The market is amoral and responds merely whatever the demand (people with the money to pay) happens to be. If that is the sub-optimal allocation of resources, the market doesn't care at all. It just provides the forum for the exchange of goods and services and is quite blind to the morality devoted to providing those goods and services.

In other words, if we want a 'moral' free-market, there is no escaping the reality that we all need to make moral purchasing decisions.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Veganism and animal rights

Post #18

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Filthy Tugboat in post #11]
do animal rights activists and advocates have a valid point?
I suppose that would depend on their point. Sometimes, too much zeal makes people take things too far.
Does the right to privacy trump animal rights?
Depends on the situation, IMO, not legally.
If farmers are going about their work illegally (breaching protection of animal laws), are these measures a reasonable response?
I'm a bit biased on this based on the purposeful abuse of animals, so take that into consideration with my response. I think anyone that knowingly abuses an animal needs to be eliminated from this planet full stop.
What do you think of veganism and animal welfare?
Veganism may be taking animal rights too far. I get it when people claim animals are used and abused for products. That's wrong. But things like eggs and milk - so long as the animal is not being mistreated and is being treated with respect, I see nothing wrong with it. Especially when it's something the animal does anyway.
In regards to animal welfare, it should be paramount to treat animals with respect and (ironically, some say) humanity. Anyone who has spent quality time with any animal (outside things with limited nervous systems and brains) know animals are unique and have feelings. Why we discount those things is foreign to me, personally.
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Re: Veganism and animal rights

Post #19

Post by Purple Knight »

Filthy Tugboat wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:28 amThe "activists" are only doing it for attention, it looks like most of them are wearing leather, the ones obstructing the trucks with livestock on may well have inadvertently killed those livestock by not allowing air circulation and keeping them from their destination where they can be fed and watered again. They don't care about animals.
I agree.

And I do care about animals, but I have tried to go vegan in the past and it destroyed me.

I don't think animals should be slaughtered inhumanely. But yes, if it's your animal, you can kill and eat it, or sell it to be killed and eaten. This doesn't mean you can torture the animal. If you've had a pet chicken you know they're just as intelligent as a cat or dog and should be treated the same. This means yes, if you want to kill and eat your cat, go ahead. Just don't make me watch. All intelligent animals should have the same rights.

Someday hopefully we can grow meat from plants, but this won't mean that every chicken lives in a nice home with nice people feeding and caring for her. It will mean most chickens go extinct. That's something to consider also.

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Re: Veganism and animal rights

Post #20

Post by Dimmesdale »

I still eat seafood, but I'm planning to give it up this May.

There really is no excuse in our day and age to continue to feed on animal flesh. We should at least be moving in the direction of full independence from meat. It's immoral, it hurts the environment and everyone around us, and it leads to disease and irritability and other emotional disbalances. I am giving up animal flesh because it's the right thing to do ethically as well as religiously.

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