Why God is a Time-Traveller

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Dimmesdale
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Why God is a Time-Traveller

Post #1

Post by Dimmesdale »

Question for debate: is my reasoning sound? Who disagrees?

God is a time traveler.

Why do you ask? Because if he is not, then there is no reason to think this world of ours is real if in fact God holds it in existence. It would have never been, in other words. Because God would have always surpassed it, out-ran it, and it’s being could never catch up to His Being.

For this world to be real, time would have to be real, and this world and time would have to be sustained by God in this moment. Otherwise this world is absolutely meaningless in the eyes of God and non-existent.

The question is, when does he hold it in existence?

If God is outside time, if he transcends it completely, then what reason is there to believe God is present to it now? Wouldn’t his habitation, in his mind (and, in truth), be eternally future eternity? Isn’t he now and always “been,� in his actuality, situated at the very tail-end of eternity, if we could even put it that way.

Theologians and philosophers may wax poetic about eternity past and God’s aloneness and aloofness. But if God truly transcends time, then God has always existed in the future, eternally, as well. And there wouldn’t ever have been a “time� when he was not in eternity future. Hence he has never been alone or aloof. Unless, he is a time traveler, and is present at all moments in some sense.

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Re: Why God is a Time-Traveller

Post #11

Post by wannabe »

[Replying to Dimmesdale]

Time only Exists because it is observed.

God observes time from a different perspective given that he created it.

And independence was born unto man to be given time, for the independent man to recognize his own worth, in the course of learning.
So that man might continue on and learn to understand forever in a new way.

Time is only a measured passage of (one) existence. for in reality there is forever.

In my observation, God Doesn't see time as relevant, with the exception of his own use for it.
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timeless existence

Post #12

Post by elphidium55 »

Time only Exists because it is observed.
How can this be true? Time is measured relative to the observer in the same way that distance is measured relative to the observer. But that a 4-dimensional space-time block universe exists is an objective fact. Two objects in space-time can be separated by a concrete distance and time without either being aware of their separation. Neither object is doing any "observation."
God observes time from a different perspective given that he created it.
How? You assert this but do not back it up with any positive arguments. As I understand it, God's perspective as a timelessly existing mind sees only the "now."
A timeless being creating time seems at first glance to be incomprehensible. I think you owe us an explanation. Or do you posit that god can do the logically impossible?

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Re: timeless existence

Post #13

Post by wannabe »

elphidium55 wrote:
Time only Exists because it is observed.
How can this be true? Time is measured relative to the observer in the same way that distance is measured relative to the observer.
'Distance' is observed and comprehended upon observance. Where as 'time' is observed as a constant flow.
One moves and the other doesn't.
So how are they measured the same?
Two objects in space-time can be separated by a concrete distance and time without either being aware of their separation. Neither object is doing any "observation."
That's right nothing is being recognized.
The only 'time' relevant to the two objects is distance traveled at a given rate and recorded (observed) probably by a clock. And how long they have existed.
The only observation is man made.

Time doesn't stop by using a stop watch.
Time is only recorded after being observed.
Time is only relevant to man's science or reference point.
Animals don't know how old they are.
How? You assert this but do not back it up with any positive arguments. As I understand it, God's perspective as a timelessly existing mind sees only the "now."
A timeless being creating time seems at first glance to be incomprehensible. I think you owe us an explanation
I see God as the world creator.
So therefor - before atomic clocks were invented. Time began for man when he first realized night and day with a realization of the day before.(A passage of time has been realized.)

How did God create night and day?
Simple - he set the earth spinning.
Or do you posit that god can do the logically impossible?
I do think that if God had it in mind to do the logically impossible things - He could.

Some people view large chunks of time, at a time. This is called history.
Some people view small chunks of time - This is called an event.
Some people recall a time when...(or an event).

I would think that God regards - From,'the beginning of his creation to the completion of its purpose', as one event.

A bit like building a car from scratch and then remembering the event(s).

However Gods project moves with time as recorded by man, and on a scale only God observes.

However there is only one point in mans time (which is now) - Moving along Gods time line (which is planned).

Quote:
God observes time from a different perspective given that he created it.
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Live to give , Give to live ( love Jesus )

: I believe a mans spirit is more than just his imagination.

I believe in forever. That's true even without religion.(or man)

: Live to give, give to life, Forgive to live.

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Post #14

Post by elphidium55 »

wannabe writes:
'Distance' is observed and comprehended upon observance. Where as 'time' is observed as a constant flow.One moves and the other doesn't. So how are they measured the same?

Human beings experience time as flowing. We perceive that time "moves" for us. Except that time doesn't really move. That's merely how we humans see it.

Physicist think of time as being merely 1 dimension of a 4 dimensional block universe, where the other 3 dimensions are spatial. For any particular point contained in this 4 dimensional block universe, there is a set of coordinates that "pin down" that particular point in space-time. For any two points in this space-time block, it is possible to calculate their separation from each other. In theory, neither point needs to be observable to us. Both may be so far away from us now that there light has not yet reached us.

wannabe also writes:
I do think that if God had it in mind to do the logically impossible things - He could.

Are you saying that god can make round squares, for example? How does this work. I take it that the following deduction is universally true:

A. A square is a two dimensional geometric object that has 4 equal length sides at right angles to one another.
B. A circle is not a two dimensional geometric object that has 4 equal length sides at right angles to one another.
C. Therefore, there can not be a round square.

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Post #15

Post by wannabe »

elphidium55 wrote:
---
wannabe writes:
Quote:
'Distance' is observed and comprehended upon observance. Where as 'time' is observed as a constant flow.One moves and the other doesn't. So how are they measured the same?

elphidium55 wrote:
Human beings experience time as flowing. We perceive that time "moves" for us. Except that time doesn't really move. That's merely how we humans see it.
How things are comprehended is what gives them reality.

If, 'as you think' time doesn't move and is just a thing, then we are all travelers within time.- Including God.
Physicist think of time as being merely 1 dimension of a 4 dimensional block universe, where the other 3 dimensions are spatial. For any particular point contained in this 4 dimensional block universe, there is a set of coordinates that "pin down" that particular point in space-time. For any two points in this space-time block, it is possible to calculate their separation from each other.
The word dimension points to an aspect of an object. Height,width, and breadth, and time as physicists understand.
Even color, texture and density are gradients of a format.
I might point out that all of the characteristics of an object are measurable quantities.
Time in this reference is merely a reference point after a calculation.
The object doesn't stop existing after a calculation, but continues on in time.
And if the object moves then the time reference changes because the time factor is only relevant to the measured point.
The key word being 'measured' using some kind of instrument, - Probably 'the speed of light, or the objects age.
All aspects of an object can be measured as a reference point to it, but in measuring time we have to understand that it moves. Except for stopped (a stopping point of the object or event - not actual time), and then that becomes a reference point.

- Or please explain.
How the 'one dimension of time' is measured ?
and, or how is time directly related to an object ?

I still maintain time as a flowing motion.
wannabe also writes:
Quote:
I do think that if God had it in mind to do the logically impossible things - He could.


Are you saying that god can make round squares, for example? How does this work. I take it that the following deduction is universally true:

A. A square is a two dimensional geometric object that has 4 equal length sides at right angles to one another.
B. A circle is not a two dimensional geometric object that has 4 equal length sides at right angles to one another.
C. Therefore, there can not be a round square.
We all need to label things to have communicative understanding, such as round and square. But I see your point.
But the impossible things I refer to are things like when the earth became round instead of flat - 'like at the time when it was illogical to sail too far so one wouldn't fall of the edge.' (logically impossible is only a concept - some times true.)

God doesn't time travel - Just observes human understandings of time as different from his own perspective of time, 'all at the same time'.
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Live to give , Give to live ( love Jesus )

: I believe a mans spirit is more than just his imagination.

I believe in forever. That's true even without religion.(or man)

: Live to give, give to life, Forgive to live.

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Post #16

Post by elphidium55 »

How the 'one dimension of time' is measured ?

According to the International Systme of Units (SI), the basic unit of time duration is the second. The second is now defined as approx. 9 billion oscillations of a Caesium 133 atom. Of course any regularly recurring natural event can potentially be used as a time marker: the year, the month, the day, a pendulum, etc.

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Post #17

Post by elphidium55 »

How the 'one dimension of time' is measured ?


According to the International System of Units (SI), the basic unit of time is the second. The second is now defined as approx. 9 billion oscillations of a Caesium 133 atom. Of course any regularly recurring natural event can potentially be used as a time marker: the year, the month, the day, a pendulum, etc.
how is time directly related to an object ?


The earth has been "platted" using a three dimensional spatial grid we call longitude, latitude and altitude. How do these three dimensions properly relate to an object.? We simply say that every spatial object necessarily has these three properties. An objects' location in space is one of it's intrinsic features.

Now extend this grid into a 4th dimension representing time? How is time directly related to an object in this 4d block? We simple say that every object in this 4d grid necessarily has a property called spatial-temporal location and this property is intrinsic to the object.

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Post #18

Post by elphidium55 »

wannabe asks:
How the 'one dimension of time' is measured ?
According to the International System of Units, the basic unit of time is the second. The second is now defined as approx. 9 billion oscillations of a Caesium 133 atom. Of course, any regularly recurring event can potentially be used as a time marker: the year, the month, the day, a pendulum, etc.

wannabe also asks:
how is time directly related to an object ?
The earth has been "platted" using a three dimensional spatial grid we call longitude, latitude and altitude. How do these three dimensions properly relate to an object.? We simply say that every spatial object necessarily has these three properties. An objects' location in space is one of it's intrinsic features.

Now augment this grid with a 4th dimension representing time. How is time directly related to an object in this 4d block? We simple say that every object in this 4d grid necessarily has a property called spatial-temporal location and this property is intrinsic to the object.

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Re: Why is God a Time-Traveller

Post #19

Post by isaachunter »

elphidium55 wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:57 pm
Think of yourself holding a book ... Each word in the book is a moment of time. You have finished the Book of Time and are now familiar with every "moment" in the story ... Whenever you like, you can open the book to any page and read any word on that page, thus revisiting any "moment" of time at will.
To see why book-type metaphors fail, let's imagine a movie rather than a book. You and I can only understand the movie sequentially. That is, we have to start at frame-1, then go to frame-2, then move to frame-3, etc. until we reach the final frame.
The book metaphor is the best example I've found to illustrate the nature of time and its relationship to God. 1. God is not dependent on the sequentiality of time. He is outside of if and is "author" of it, thus, not bound by it or to it. 2. Not only can God open to any given page in the completed history of the physical creation (past, present, future), but he also has record (if only in his mind) of all other possible choices we would have/could have made during our lives. We see this in 1 Samuel 23:9-13 where God tells David he will be captured by his enemy and so David changes course and is not captured. Not only can God see/know every choice will will ever make or have ever made but he knows what choice we would make in ever potentiality possible. God's book is apparently an infinite "choose your own adventure" book that he wrote.
Now imagine seeing this same movie simultaneously. That is, every frame, soundtrack included, being broadcast at the same time. Imagine, also, that I have the superhuman ability to take all this in and process it accordingly. Even if I can get information from each frame, I won't understands the movie itself. That's because the movie isn't just a bunch of frames, its a chronological sequence of frames.
This is not an impossibility. In fact, the metaphor of the author works perfectly. When God picks up the book he can read any given page out of the existence of physical reality (the four dimensions). Yes, that particular page is out of sequence from the greater story, but he is not limited the same way a person would be if they picked up the same book and read that individual page (without knowing the entire story). That is a limit of knowledge. God is not limited by knowledge. When an author of a book picks up and reads an individual page, they not only know the story from beginning to end, they also know the hidden information, thoughts, feelings, emotions that went into writing that story. There are a multitude of scenes that never made it into the story but exist solely in the author's mind. He experiences all of those in connection and simultaneously with the individual pages he reads at any given moment. He can rip out a particular page he's unhappy with (example: blotting out a name from the book of life). He can add pages later if he wold like (example: revealing the mystery of the church with Christ only after the age of the OT prophets). It is at the author's discretion to do as he likes. In fact, it is quite possible there is no physical (or what constitutes physical in the supernatural/spiritual realm) book, but that the unfolding of our reality occurs not on a greater dimensional plane than our four dimensional reality but within the mind of God alone. Consider the author who spends sometimes years working through a story in his head before he actually puts anything down on paper. He spends countless hours molding and manipulating events, shaping characters, running through alternate endings. Once the story is written (and subsequently published) it is solidified into a single instance of that ever changing story in the author's mind. All those other thoughts, events, feelings, emotions, characters, endings - they all still exist within the author's mind. They still play out whenever the author remembers them or contemplates their ramifications.
But if I am a "mind" existing outside of time, then there is no such thing as first, second, and third, no beginning, no end. There is only "now." I can't first experience every frame and then re-order them chronologically in my thoughts because there is no chronological (aka time) in timeless existence. Like the frames, our minds apprehend reality sequentially. As philosopher Alex Malpass points out, our minds are sequences of phenomological experiences. A timeless mind is literally inconceivable to us.
Yes, but our minds are not the mind of God. This is a mistake many people make equating the two. We are limited not only by our original design, but further degraded by the genetic degradation of the fall. There are several places in the Bible that state God, his thoughts, his works are all beyond our very comprehension. Our limitation does not equate to God any limitation on his part.

Also, I'm somewhat skeptical of God being "outside" of time in the first place. Time may not be a property that binds us, but simply the perception of change that occurs. If no change occurs then it stands to reason no time has passed. The question must be asked if it is possible for there to be a timeless existence at all? If nothing changes within a given mind, it is static. It is like an image. We would not say a person within the image exists within that image (especially as a separate entity from the actual person the picture was taken of). So it is possible we are mistaken about time - that it is simply a marker of change rather than a dimensional property or something one can be "in" or "out" of.

..........

As for God being a time traveler. I would argue he is. Not in the sense of Quantum Leap, where he is bouncing around in time, but God is omnipresent to all events in relation to his creation (physical reality). He can not only pick up the book and read an individual page, but he can read several pages simultaneously, and I would imagine he could sit back and watch the book projected onto the screen of space and time. HE can also watch the sequels that have yet to be written, those installments with alternate endings, and he can also participate at any given point in the timeline. God in many occasions stepped into the story personally, manifestly, changing things, people, and events in supernatural ways. He took Enoch. Jesus step into reality and lived among his creation for 33 years, becoming flesh and blood. This is something an ordinary author cannot do (unless he writes himself into the story line as himself - but this is different than what God did).

Likewise, the Bible states God is light. This is an interesting use of this word, since light travels at a particular speed. When something approaches the speed of light, time ceases to be experienced. If Christ found in position A (33 A.D.) then accelerates to the speed of light in the direction of position T (the 2nd coming), then decelerates, stepping into that moment of position T, he has effectively traveled across time (not necessarily through it), though no time was experienced by him (maybe during acceleration and deceleration). This could explain the reason the word for light was used, as God exhibits the same properties that light exhibits.

Lastly, not only can God move across time instantly, interact with his creation within the flow of time, see all points of time, but he also created ALL of creation out of nothing and holds it all together from moment to moment. If we consider the wave function collapse upon observation, this could explain why reality persists even when not being observed by us. Either it is being observed by "something" (animals, insects) all the time, or it is always being observed by God. Once God takes his eyes off of reality, it will simply cease to exist.

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