Subjective Morality

[The Tanager]

I started this post out of another discussion with Divine Insight. DI has made some arguments for morality being subjective. I'm still trying to get the terminology straight.

If morality is not absolute, then it can only be subjective. A matter of opinion.

We need to get our terms straight when talking about our human morality. I agree with you concerning 'subjective' being a matter of opinion. Objective, then, would mean not being a matter of opinion. Just like the shape of the earth is not a matter of opinion. X is good or bad for everyone.

Absolute vs. situational is a sub-issue concerning objectivism. The absolutist would say X is good or bad for everyone (and thus objectivism) no matter the situation. The situationalist would say X is good or bad for everyone but qualified by the situation.

In this phrasing, morality can be objectivist without being absolute. Now, I don't care if these are the terms we agree upon or not, but there must be some term for each concept I've presented. If you want to use "absolute" for "objective" above, that's fine. But you've got to tell me what two terms you want to use for what I termed the "absolute vs. situational" sub-issue.

[The Tanager]

I don't think we are, here you speak of pleasure and displeasure. That's what I mean by like and dislike. You dislike it more than you like it, that's perfectly normal.

This comes from you asking me how I would "like" folk music if I thought it objectively bad. In that case I could have an immediate experience of pleasure from hearing folk music (because I naturally like it) but I would still think it bad for me to continue listening to it. This is the same thing. I could have an immediate experience of pleasure from objectifying a woman (because I naturally like doing so) but I would still think it bad for me to continue objectifying women.

[Bust Nak]

This comes from you asking me how I would "like" folk music if I thought it objectively bad. In that case I could have an immediate experience of pleasure from hearing folk music (because I naturally like it) but I would still think it bad for me to continue listening to it. This is the same thing. I could have an immediate experience of pleasure from objectifying a woman (because I naturally like doing so) but I would still think it bad for me to continue objectifying women.

So this is just an example of you liking some aspects of it, while not liking other aspects of it? If so then why is the not liking part subjectivism proper/objectivism instead of just plain old simple subjectivism? e.g. In the same way I don't like ice-cream for breakfast because it is objectively unhealthy is just simple subjectivism.

[The Tanager]

So this is just an example of you liking some aspects of it, while not liking other aspects of it? If so then why is the not liking part subjectivism proper/objectivism instead of just plain old simple subjectivism? e.g. In the same way I don't like ice-cream for breakfast because it is objectively unhealthy is just simple subjectivism.

Because the liking/disliking is based off whether the object is an objective or subjective feature of reality, rather than a natural preference internal to a person.

[Bust Nak]

Because the liking/disliking is based off whether the object is an objective or subjective feature of reality, rather than a natural preference internal to a person.

I don't get how it is different to my example. Why not both? Liking/disliking ice-cream for breakfast is based off whether the health implication is an objective or subjective feature of reality, and it is natural preference internal to a person as I like staying healthy.

[The Tanager]

I don't get how it is different to my example. Why not both? Liking/disliking ice-cream for breakfast is based off whether the health implication is an objective or subjective feature of reality, and it is natural preference internal to a person as I like staying healthy.

Yes, I would "dislike" (objectivism/subjectivism) listening to folk music because (a) it is an objective feature of reality that rap music is best and (b) I "like," i.e., have a natural preference for, (simple subjectivism) for my beliefs being in line with objective reality.

This "dislike" (objectivism/subjectivism) is different than my "like," i.e., having a natural preference for the sounds, rhythyms, etc. associated with folk music (simple subjectivism).

[Bust Nak]

Yes, I would "dislike" (objectivism/subjectivism) listening to folk music because (a) it is an objective feature of reality that rap music is best and (b) I "like," i.e., have a natural preference for, (simple subjectivism) for my beliefs being in line with objective reality.

This "dislike" (objectivism/subjectivism) is different than my "like," i.e., having a natural preference for the sounds, rhythyms, etc. associated with folk music (simple subjectivism).

Don't you have a natural preference for objective correctness? Or a natural preference for healthy body? I don't see what's so difference between I like the people to reject flat Earth and I like ice-cream. The former is about an objective nature of the Earth, the latter is based on how it feels to me, yet the likes here are the same to me, of natural preference.

Either way, I see how you would see music the same way as you would any other objective feature of reality, had music is also objective, so at least that is consistent.

[The Tanager]

Don't you have a natural preference for objective correctness? Or a natural preference for healthy body? I don't see what's so difference between I like the people to reject flat Earth and I like ice-cream. The former is about an objective nature of the Earth, the latter is based on how it feels to me, yet the likes here are the same to me, of natural preference.

Either way, I see how you would see music the same way as you would any other objective feature of reality, had music is also objective, so at least that is consistent.

1. I like (the taste of) ice cream. Why?

Natural preference for certain tastes, textures, etc. + ice cream having those certain tastes, textures, etc.

2. I like people to reject flat earth theory. Why?

Shape of the earth being an objective feature of reality + natural preference for objective correctness + the earth being spherical in shape

Of course our natural preferences come into play in both cases. I'm not disputing that. There is still a difference, though. My liking the taste of ice cream has nothing to do with whether food taste is objective or subjective; it comes solely from what taste buds I have. My liking people to reject flat earth theory comes from a natural preference within me plus a belief about the shape of the earth being objective or subjective.

Or perhaps you mean something else by saying "I like ice-cream" here?

[Bust Nak]

There is still a difference, though. My liking the taste of ice cream has nothing to do with whether food taste is objective or subjective; it comes solely from what taste buds I have. My liking people to reject flat earth theory comes from a natural preference within me plus a belief about the shape of the earth being objective or subjective.

I see that as you liking different things, as opposed to the liking part being different.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #709]

In one I clearly have a "like" and that's all. In the other I clearly have a "like" plus a belief about an aspect of reality being objective or subjective. That's not just liking different things.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #709]

In one I clearly have a "like" and that's all. In the other I clearly have a "like" plus a belief about an aspect of reality being objective or subjective. That's not just liking different things.

In the same sense I clearly have a "like" plus a belief about ice-cream being healthy or not?