Are you capable of putting children into the world?

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Waterfall
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Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

We know there are people who do not want a temporary life and that creates a problem...because how to sort them from the rest?

I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie

What kind of a story do people want to be a part of...your story? No afterlife? What do people want? Do we have to put children into the world before we can say what they want? Who wants to be a part of your story? Is it a good story? Why say yes to be a part of a bad story?



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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

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Post by Tcg »

Waterfall wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:11 am
I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...
If life has no value, an unending version of it will not either.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

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Post by Waterfall »

Tcg wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:31 am
Waterfall wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:11 am
I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...
If life has no value, an unending version of it will not either.
What are you saying?

If a temporary life has no value then a eternal life has no value? If I do not like a temporary life does that mean I do not like a eternal life?

Do you like a temporary life? Why?

Can you accept that I do not like a temporary life and prefer not to be born at all if that is the case?

How will you sort me from the rest?

I hope we can have a good conversation about life...



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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

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Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:31 am
Waterfall wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:11 am
I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...
If life has no value, an unending version of it will not either.


Tcg
I actually agree. Though I didn't before.

Before I thought that if life is really so ephemeral, than it is nothing more than a cheap joke. And you couldn't really blame evil people for taking it. I don't believe that now. Even if life were temporary it would have the same intrinsic worth, just by the fact of being life. Life must be valued for its own sake, not its duration's.

However, if life were temporary we would still be in a despairing existential boat. We would have that to contend with at least. And people who would not be strong enough morally wouldn't think twice about taking it. To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

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Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #6

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #7

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #8

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #9

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.
Nope, you are using an Ad Hominem in a failed attempt to avoid supporting your claim.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #10

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:30 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.
Nope, you are using an Ad Hominem in a failed attempt to avoid supporting your claim.


Tcg
Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not convinced anyhow that all people who come to the conclusion that life is eternal auto-deceive themselves. Though I can see why that might be plausible for some skeptics. You haven't supported that claim yourself, in my view.

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