What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

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What is your position about knowing the truth about reality?

I prefer to know the truth about reality even if the truth is not comforting.
3
100%
I prefer to cling to my comforting religious beliefs.
0
No votes
I prefer to cling to my comforting non-religious beliefs.
0
No votes
I prefer to stay with my disturbing religious beliefs.
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No votes
I prefer to stay with my disturbing non-religious beliefs.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

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What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality? I have been wondering for many years, but I am no closer to a reliable answer. Are there other universes? The Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics say that there are many universes, but the scientists have not proved it to be so. Do we live in a simulation? How can we possibly know for sure? All the religions on Earth offer a different view of what is real but they contradict each other and they contradict what we know from science. Do you want to know the truth about reality or do you prefer to cling to comforting religious beliefs?
Last edited by Compassionist on Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #11

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:29 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:36 pmNone of the religions talk about Big Bang, Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Quantum Mechanics, General Theory of Relativity, Special Theory of Relativity, Abiogenesis, Evolution, etc. The various creation stories all contradict each other and what we have discovered through science.
Contradicting each other simply means they are not all correct, not that not of them are correct. I know plenty of Christians who talk about those things, as part of their religion. Christianity's Scriptures don't talk about those things, but they aren't meant to be a science book. They don't talk about those theories for or against. That's not contradiction. The Genesis account of creation does not contradict what we have discovered through science. Certainly some interpretations of the Genesis account do, but that's not the same thing.
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:36 pmScience is about discovering the truth through the examination of evidence. Religion is about believing lies to be truths. That's why I prefer science to religion.
There are questions that science cannot answer. Not that science has tried and fail, but that are non-scientific questions. Science is very important, but it's not the only source of knowledge about reality. Religion also is about discovering truth through the examination of evidence, just different kinds of questions) oftentimes working off of scientific truths.
Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_c ... _narrative How is this narrative the same as what we know about the existence of reality and the existence of living things through science? Many religions have creation stories. None of them matches what we have learned through the scientific method. Please give me examples of questions that science cannot answer. What other sources of knowledge can we have apart from science?

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #12

Post by Athetotheist »

Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:09 pmFacts are truths. Once we know all the facts, we will become all-knowing. What do you mean by 'ultimate truth'? How is that different from facts?
As I see it, facts are things which are the case now but may not always have been so and may not always be so. I regard "truths" as residing in a different realm such as the philosophical, moral and, yes, even religious.

If I may be so bold, we can never possibly know all facts. We experience this existence within an environment dubbed "the known universe" which, for all we know, may be but an infinitesimal soap bubble in a vastness incomprehensible to us not only in its size but also in its nature. We certainly have no way of knowing otherwise as "fact".

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #13

Post by The Tanager »

Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:12 pmPlease see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_c ... _narrative How is this narrative the same as what we know about the existence of reality and the existence of living things through science? Many religions have creation stories. None of them matches what we have learned through the scientific method.
What narrative points are you talking about? There are different interpretations of the Genesis creation account. Some interpret it in ways that contradict scientific claims, but that's not the only interpretations possible. Other interpretations see the text as not making scientific claims at all, besides maybe creation ex nihilo, which coheres with traditional Big Bang cosmology and the start of the spatio-temporal universe.
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:12 pmPlease give me examples of questions that science cannot answer.
Logical and mathematical truths are presupposed by science. Science can't prove that the universe wasn't created 5 minutes ago. Science can't tell us if ethical truths exist, what they are, or if we should care about them. Science can't give us aesthetic truths. Science can't prove the validity of science itself. It can't tell us why there is a universe. It can't tell us what cause the spatio-temporal universe (if it began). It can't give us love, meaning, purpose.
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:12 pmWhat other sources of knowledge can we have apart from science?
Reason. Revelation.

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #14

Post by Compassionist »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:52 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:09 pmFacts are truths. Once we know all the facts, we will become all-knowing. What do you mean by 'ultimate truth'? How is that different from facts?
As I see it, facts are things which are the case now but may not always have been so and may not always be so. I regard "truths" as residing in a different realm such as the philosophical, moral and, yes, even religious.

If I may be so bold, we can never possibly know all facts. We experience this existence within an environment dubbed "the known universe" which, for all we know, may be but an infinitesimal soap bubble in a vastness incomprehensible to us not only in its size but also in its nature. We certainly have no way of knowing otherwise as "fact".
I agree that the observable universe is not the whole universe. Also, there may be an infinite number of other universes which we may never be able to visit or know anything about. I find my lack of omniscience and omnipotence very frustrating. How about you?

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #15

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:44 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:12 pmPlease see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_c ... _narrative How is this narrative the same as what we know about the existence of reality and the existence of living things through science? Many religions have creation stories. None of them matches what we have learned through the scientific method.
What narrative points are you talking about? There are different interpretations of the Genesis creation account. Some interpret it in ways that contradict scientific claims, but that's not the only interpretations possible. Other interpretations see the text as not making scientific claims at all, besides maybe creation ex nihilo, which coheres with traditional Big Bang cosmology and the start of the spatio-temporal universe.
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:12 pmPlease give me examples of questions that science cannot answer.
Logical and mathematical truths are presupposed by science. Science can't prove that the universe wasn't created 5 minutes ago. Science can't tell us if ethical truths exist, what they are, or if we should care about them. Science can't give us aesthetic truths. Science can't prove the validity of science itself. It can't tell us why there is a universe. It can't tell us what cause the spatio-temporal universe (if it began). It can't give us love, meaning, purpose.
Compassionist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:12 pmWhat other sources of knowledge can we have apart from science?
Reason. Revelation.
I am talking about the literal creation story which does not match what we know from science. If the Bible had said that God exists and here is the proof and if it said that this is how the universe was created 13.82 billion years ago and this is how the solar system was created, this is how abiogenesis occurred 3.8 billion years ago, this is how genetics work, etc. then that account would have matched what we know through science.

Science can and has proved that our universe began 13.82 billion years ago - it is certainly not 5 minutes old.

Science is a method of observation and the testing of hypothesis. I agree that there are limits to that. As for revelation, why would an omniscient and omnipotent God use such an erroneous book as the Bible or the Quran or any other religious book to communicate with us? Why not show up and prove that He/She/It exists? Why didn't God prevent all suffering, unfairness and deaths? Doesn't that mean that God is evil (whether imaginary or real)?

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #16

Post by The Tanager »

Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amI am talking about the literal creation story which does not match what we know from science. If the Bible had said that God exists and here is the proof and if it said that this is how the universe was created 13.82 billion years ago and this is how the solar system was created, this is how abiogenesis occurred 3.8 billion years ago, this is how genetics work, etc. then that account would have matched what we know through science.
You seem to be assuming that the account is meant to be taken as a scientific text. I don't think it was intended as a literal scientific account. It does say the spatio-temporal universe began to exist, which matches your scientific understanding. Abiogenesis is not scientific knowledge.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amScience can and has proved that our universe began 13.82 billion years ago - it is certainly not 5 minutes old.
Science has not and cannot prove such a thing. The world could conceivably have come into existence 5 minutes ago with all our memories and the illusion of an older past built in.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amScience is a method of observation and the testing of hypothesis. I agree that there are limits to that. As for revelation, why would an omniscient and omnipotent God use such an erroneous book as the Bible or the Quran or any other religious book to communicate with us? Why not show up and prove that He/She/It exists?
I agree that science is a very good source of knowledge, just to be clear on that. Those books are claimed to be recordings of God showing up. Whether they are erroneous or not is a matter of history, philosophy, possibly more.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amWhy didn't God prevent all suffering, unfairness and deaths? Doesn't that mean that God is evil (whether imaginary or real)?
I don't think it does (if using a non-question begging definition of evil).

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #17

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:39 am
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amI am talking about the literal creation story which does not match what we know from science. If the Bible had said that God exists and here is the proof and if it said that this is how the universe was created 13.82 billion years ago and this is how the solar system was created, this is how abiogenesis occurred 3.8 billion years ago, this is how genetics work, etc. then that account would have matched what we know through science.
You seem to be assuming that the account is meant to be taken as a scientific text. I don't think it was intended as a literal scientific account. It does say the spatio-temporal universe began to exist, which matches your scientific understanding. Abiogenesis is not scientific knowledge.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amScience can and has proved that our universe began 13.82 billion years ago - it is certainly not 5 minutes old.
Science has not and cannot prove such a thing. The world could conceivably have come into existence 5 minutes ago with all our memories and the illusion of an older past built in.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amScience is a method of observation and the testing of hypothesis. I agree that there are limits to that. As for revelation, why would an omniscient and omnipotent God use such an erroneous book as the Bible or the Quran or any other religious book to communicate with us? Why not show up and prove that He/She/It exists?
I agree that science is a very good source of knowledge, just to be clear on that. Those books are claimed to be recordings of God showing up. Whether they are erroneous or not is a matter of history, philosophy, possibly more.
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 amWhy didn't God prevent all suffering, unfairness and deaths? Doesn't that mean that God is evil (whether imaginary or real)?
I don't think it does (if using a non-question begging definition of evil).
Just because the world could be an illusion or simulation it does not necessarily mean that it is. I have nothing more to add. Thank you for chatting with me. I wish you all the best.

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #18

Post by Athetotheist »

Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:43 amI agree that the observable universe is not the whole universe. Also, there may be an infinite number of other universes which we may never be able to visit or know anything about. I find my lack of omniscience and omnipotence very frustrating. How about you?
I actually like the fact that we can't know everything. It keeps us from getting cocky and gives us room to speculate on what wonders there might be. I love a good mystery.

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #19

Post by The Tanager »

Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:14 amJust because the world could be an illusion or simulation it does not necessarily mean that it is. I have nothing more to add. Thank you for chatting with me. I wish you all the best.
I completely agree and wasn't saying otherwise. I was countering the claim that science has proven the universe is not 5 minutes old. The scientific data would look exactly the same whether it's 5 minutes old with the illusion of a 13.82 billion year old past or whether that is no illusion. I think that isn't an illusion, but I'm not 100% certain.

Thank you for chatting with me. I've enjoyed your thoughts, challenges, and behavior towards me. I wish you the best there is.

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Re: What is the truth about reality, and how can I know the whole truth about reality?

Post #20

Post by Compassionist »

The Tanager wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:34 pm
Compassionist wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:14 amJust because the world could be an illusion or simulation it does not necessarily mean that it is. I have nothing more to add. Thank you for chatting with me. I wish you all the best.
I completely agree and wasn't saying otherwise. I was countering the claim that science has proven the universe is not 5 minutes old. The scientific data would look exactly the same whether it's 5 minutes old with the illusion of a 13.82 billion year old past or whether that is no illusion. I think that isn't an illusion, but I'm not 100% certain.

Thank you for chatting with me. I've enjoyed your thoughts, challenges, and behavior towards me. I wish you the best there is.
You are most welcome.

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