Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

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Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

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Post by Rational Atheist »

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #81

Post by bluegreenearth »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:43 am Both of our views assume the existence of a will, otherwise we could perform no action. The “will” is whatever process results in a decision being made and an action being attempted. The question is whether that will, or our decision, is free, determined, or random. Those are the three logically possible options. Your claim rules out one of the three logically possible options and sets up a dilemma between 2 and 3. You bear the burden for doing so, in order to support your claim.
You stated, "...the will decides what it wants to seek..." If the "will" is a process for making a decision as you've described above, then please explain how a process for making a decision decides what it wants to seek (an example would be helpful).

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #82

Post by The Tanager »

bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:08 amYou stated, "...the will decides what it wants to seek..." If the "will" is a process for making a decision as you've described above, then please explain how a process for making a decision decides what it wants to seek (an example would be helpful).
Hopefully this will not lead to you just providing the determinism narrative version of the same thing. Johnny chooses to pursue health over pleasure because he wants to be around longer for his family and thinks this will get him that goal. Therefore, he eats a healthy smoothie over a couple of donuts. The process Johnny goes through involves various reasons pulling him in different directions, but because of the goal Johnny wants he sides with the healthy reason. Okay, but why does Johnny want to be around longer for his family, right? Ultimately, let's say he just loves them. Why does he love them? He isn't forced to love them for that would be illogical. Love must be a choice or it's not actually love. Faced with love and self-centeredness, Johnny wills love. The process is simply a will faced with two options and deciding which one it wants to follow.

Now, why rule that logically possible narrative (or any other example) out? Your claim necessitates that option being ruled out. You bear the burden of supporting that.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #83

Post by Miles »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:16 am
bluegreenearth wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:08 amYou stated, "...the will decides what it wants to seek..." If the "will" is a process for making a decision as you've described above, then please explain how a process for making a decision decides what it wants to seek (an example would be helpful).
Hopefully this will not lead to you just providing the determinism narrative version of the same thing. Johnny chooses to pursue health over pleasure because he wants to be around longer for his family and thinks this will get him that goal. Therefore, he eats a healthy smoothie over a couple of donuts. The process Johnny goes through involves various reasons pulling him in different directions, but because of the goal Johnny wants he sides with the healthy reason. Okay, but why does Johnny want to be around longer for his family, right? Ultimately, let's say he just loves them. Why does he love them? He isn't forced to love them for that would be illogical. Love must be a choice or it's not actually love. Faced with love and self-centeredness, Johnny wills love. The process is simply a will faced with two options and deciding which one it wants to follow.
Curious, what prompted Johnny's will to decide love over self-centeredness? Must have been some compelling reason that determined his "choice."


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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #84

Post by bluegreenearth »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:16 am Hopefully this will not lead to you just providing the determinism narrative version of the same thing. Johnny chooses to pursue health over pleasure because he wants to be around longer for his family and thinks this will get him that goal. Therefore, he eats a healthy smoothie over a couple of donuts. The process Johnny goes through involves various reasons pulling him in different directions, but because of the goal Johnny wants he sides with the healthy reason. Okay, but why does Johnny want to be around longer for his family, right? Ultimately, let's say he just loves them. Why does he love them? He isn't forced to love them for that would be illogical. Love must be a choice or it's not actually love. Faced with love and self-centeredness, Johnny wills love. The process is simply a will faced with two options and deciding which one it wants to follow.
First, you described the will as a process for making a decision. Now, you describe the process as a will making a decision. It appears that your concept of a will remains incoherent.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #85

Post by The Tanager »

Miles wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:32 pmCurious, what prompted Johnny's will to decide love over self-centeredness? Must have been some compelling reason that determined his "choice."

Why must it have been that? There are three logically possible options. Nothing determined it, something determined it, or it was randomly determined. You haven’t ruled out the other two or given an argument for determinism being true.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #86

Post by The Tanager »

bluegreenearth wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:44 amFirst, you described the will as a process for making a decision. Now, you describe the process as a will making a decision. It appears that your concept of a will remains incoherent.

Where do you think I described the will as a process for making a decision?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #87

Post by bluegreenearth »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:20 pm Where do you think I described the will as a process for making a decision?
From Post #80:
The “will” is whatever process results in a decision being made and an action being attempted.
It is my understanding that your statement above can be reduced to the fundamental concept of the "will" being equivalent to a process for making a decision (i.e. the will is a process).

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #88

Post by The Tanager »

bluegreenearth wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:57 pm
The Tanager wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:20 pm Where do you think I described the will as a process for making a decision?
From Post #80:
The “will” is whatever process results in a decision being made and an action being attempted.
It is my understanding that your statement above can be reduced to the fundamental concept of the "will" being equivalent to a process for making a decision (i.e. the will is a process).
Yes, that was very poor wording on my part. I'm sorry for the confusion. I should have said the "willing" in that context.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #89

Post by Miles »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:20 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:32 pmCurious, what prompted Johnny's will to decide love over self-centeredness? Must have been some compelling reason that determined his "choice."

Why must it have been that? There are three logically possible options. Nothing determined it, something determined it, or it was randomly determined. You haven’t ruled out the other two or given an argument for determinism being true.
There are only two categories (logically possible options.): caused and uncaused. Randomly determined is simply another determinant factor that belongs in the category of "something determined it." The "something" being randomness. But free willers reject randomness as an option because it robs the will of any freedom to choose. The sine qua non of free will.

If nothing determined it (caused it) then how was it spurred into existence?


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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #90

Post by bluegreenearth »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:12 pm Yes, that was very poor wording on my part. I'm sorry for the confusion. I should have said the "willing" in that context.
Based on your clarification above:
  • "willing" = The process for making a decision.
  • "process" = A will makes a decision.
Therefore, it follows that the willing is the process where a will makes a decision. This concept is still incoherent to me because it fails to define the "will" and offers no explanation for how the will makes a decision apart from indicating that "willing" is the label assigned to this nebulous process.

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