Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.
1. Our thoughts determine our choices.
2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.
3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.
I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.
Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #11[Replying to Rational Atheist in post #1]
I recognize your point, Rational Atheist, but there are problems with logical determinism too.
Here are 2 links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_monism
How do you support Ethics and Morality in all of it? Are they just pseudo-notions, a type of mind-play? What about exercising discipline? Discipline does not exist? I think Free Will is supported by intuition and nowadays there is a choice of the number of children to have, re family planning. I support Anomalous Free Will for this reason. Also, I think it's typical that Atheists support Determinism and religious people support Free Will.
I recognize your point, Rational Atheist, but there are problems with logical determinism too.
Here are 2 links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_monism
How do you support Ethics and Morality in all of it? Are they just pseudo-notions, a type of mind-play? What about exercising discipline? Discipline does not exist? I think Free Will is supported by intuition and nowadays there is a choice of the number of children to have, re family planning. I support Anomalous Free Will for this reason. Also, I think it's typical that Atheists support Determinism and religious people support Free Will.
I'm cool! - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #12Because of a thought that appeared in my conscious mind for some reason that is entirely outside of my control.Miles wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:37 amSo, why did you choose A over B?Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:02 pm Nope. Choice is a conscious decision. Consciousness involves thought. Thus in order to choose your thoughts, you would have to think them before you think them, which is logically impossible.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #13You're not addressing the argument. Just because free will seems intuitive does not make it true. As far as ethics and morality go, I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. I don't believe anyone is responsible for their actions, but we can still label some actions as "good" and "bad."Aetixintro wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:44 am [Replying to Rational Atheist in post #1]
I recognize your point, Rational Atheist, but there are problems with logical determinism too.
Here are 2 links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_monism
How do you support Ethics and Morality in all of it? Are they just pseudo-notions, a type of mind-play? What about exercising discipline? Discipline does not exist? I think Free Will is supported by intuition and nowadays there is a choice of the number of children to have, re family planning. I support Anomalous Free Will for this reason. Also, I think it's typical that Atheists support Determinism and religious people support Free Will.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #14Right! your will wasn't able to do any differently than what it was directed to do. It really didn't choose anything. It wasn't a free will.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:55 pmBecause of a thought that appeared in my conscious mind for some reason that is entirely outside of my control.Miles wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:37 amSo, why did you choose A over B?Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:02 pm Nope. Choice is a conscious decision. Consciousness involves thought. Thus in order to choose your thoughts, you would have to think them before you think them, which is logically impossible.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #15[Replying to Rational Atheist in post #14]
That is, just because you can make a play with cause and effect does not make Logical Determinism true either.
Rather, re anomalous origin, God seems scientifically proven by radio-astronomy on ghost detection setting (frequency range) way out there on fringes of Universe.
Anomalous origin of Free Will can be written as epistemically basic as well.
Edit:
Thus, believing in what's real is certainly logical. Therefore, not so logically impossible.
(Just for adding it here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/.)
That is, just because you can make a play with cause and effect does not make Logical Determinism true either.
Rather, re anomalous origin, God seems scientifically proven by radio-astronomy on ghost detection setting (frequency range) way out there on fringes of Universe.
Anomalous origin of Free Will can be written as epistemically basic as well.
Edit:
Thus, believing in what's real is certainly logical. Therefore, not so logically impossible.
(Just for adding it here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/.)
Last edited by Aetixintro on Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #16If you're saying you can't consciously decide what to think about, you're wrong. But that's fine - you're allowed to be wrong.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:02 pmNope. Choice is a conscious decision. Consciousness involves thought. Thus in order to choose your thoughts, you would have to think them before you think them, which is logically impossible.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:53 pmI choose what to think about frequently, thus giving me, in at least some part, control over my thoughts.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:18 pm Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.
1. Our thoughts determine our choices.
2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.
3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.
I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #17nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 amIf you're saying you can't consciously decide what to think about, you're wrong. But that's fine - you're allowed to be wrong.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:02 pmNope. Choice is a conscious decision. Consciousness involves thought. Thus in order to choose your thoughts, you would have to think them before you think them, which is logically impossible.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:53 pmI choose what to think about frequently, thus giving me, in at least some part, control over my thoughts.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:18 pm Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.
1. Our thoughts determine our choices.
2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.
3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.
I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.
If I'm wrong I want to understand why I'm wrong. How is it possible to choose a thought when the very concept of "choice" involves thinking about doing something? Seems that choosing a thought literally entails thinking a thought before thinking it, which is nonsense.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #18I originally said I choose what to think about, not the specific thought. In that sense, I'm in control of at least some of my thoughts.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:11 pmnobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 amIf you're saying you can't consciously decide what to think about, you're wrong. But that's fine - you're allowed to be wrong.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:02 pmNope. Choice is a conscious decision. Consciousness involves thought. Thus in order to choose your thoughts, you would have to think them before you think them, which is logically impossible.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:53 pmI choose what to think about frequently, thus giving me, in at least some part, control over my thoughts.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:18 pm Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.
1. Our thoughts determine our choices.
2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.
3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.
I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.
If I'm wrong I want to understand why I'm wrong. How is it possible to choose a thought when the very concept of "choice" involves thinking about doing something? Seems that choosing a thought literally entails thinking a thought before thinking it, which is nonsense.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #19[Replying to Rational Atheist in post #1]
I think your argument is flawed. You seem to me to, on the one hand, treat thoughts and choices as necessarily distinct things and, on the other hand, also treat them as identical things.
Some "choices" seem to have no thought to accompany them. Muscle memory actions, perhaps. Other "choices" seem to be thoughts themselves. If I think "ice cream is yummy" and then "ice cream is unhealthy," why can't I choose my next 'thought' to be "I want to eat ice cream, even though it is unhealthy"? If I can do so, then both premise 1 and 2 are flawed. My choosing my next 'thought' does not seem to require a separate thought to go before it.
I think your argument is flawed. You seem to me to, on the one hand, treat thoughts and choices as necessarily distinct things and, on the other hand, also treat them as identical things.
Some "choices" seem to have no thought to accompany them. Muscle memory actions, perhaps. Other "choices" seem to be thoughts themselves. If I think "ice cream is yummy" and then "ice cream is unhealthy," why can't I choose my next 'thought' to be "I want to eat ice cream, even though it is unhealthy"? If I can do so, then both premise 1 and 2 are flawed. My choosing my next 'thought' does not seem to require a separate thought to go before it.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible
Post #20[Replying to Rational Atheist in post #11]
I think your argument only sounds logical because of hindsight. All of our possible choices get whittled down to the one we decided on. Thinking about it later, and it feels as though it could have been no other way.
I think our choices are more like a bucket full of individual links. You reach in, pull one out and add it to the chain. The chain is logical, and makes sense looking backwards, but it provides no clear view of the future.
Why don’t determinists have a clear and obvious advantage if the future is so predictable? If you have no choice what to do next, how come you don’t know what what’s going to happen?
Why aren’t you better at predicting the future if the decisions are already made?
I think your argument only sounds logical because of hindsight. All of our possible choices get whittled down to the one we decided on. Thinking about it later, and it feels as though it could have been no other way.
I think our choices are more like a bucket full of individual links. You reach in, pull one out and add it to the chain. The chain is logical, and makes sense looking backwards, but it provides no clear view of the future.
Why don’t determinists have a clear and obvious advantage if the future is so predictable? If you have no choice what to do next, how come you don’t know what what’s going to happen?
Why aren’t you better at predicting the future if the decisions are already made?