Questions for those who believe in free will

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Rational Atheist
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Questions for those who believe in free will

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Post by Rational Atheist »

I'm trying to understand the belief in free will. For those who believe in free will, do you believe that your actions are determined by a chain of prior causes or not? If you do, you're a determinist and do not believe in free choice, since you can't control the causes that took place before you were born. If you don't believe your actions are determined by a chain of prior causes, or don't believe that that causal chain extends to before your birth, then you believe that at some point before your action, an event occurred for no reason whatsoever (purely random). How could this possibly get you free will either? No combination of determinism nor indeterminism (randomness) gives you "free will" in the sense of authorship of and responsibility for your actions. How can you believe anyone is ultimately responsible for what they do?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #71

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:32 pmAssuming that The Creator already knew Itself, were you and I existing at that point?

If not, then my point remains.

If you think we did exist as part of The Creator already knowing itself, then yes, i can agree that it would have to at least be acknowledged to be a pointless exercise. We would have to examine other possible explanations...
You seemed to me to be saying that we exist so that the Creator can discover Oneself, thereby we didn't exist at the "beginning" point. But if the Creator can discover Oneself through foreknowledge of what it would be like if we existed, without us actually existing, then us existing is pointless.

As far as the "other possible explanations" goes, do you mean the possible explanations for the Creator going through with a pointless exercise? If so, then what possible explanations do you see? If not, then could you clarify your point?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #72

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:13 pm
William wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:32 pmAssuming that The Creator already knew Itself, were you and I existing at that point?

If not, then my point remains.

If you think we did exist as part of The Creator already knowing itself, then yes, i can agree that it would have to at least be acknowledged to be a pointless exercise. We would have to examine other possible explanations...
You seemed to me to be saying that we exist so that the Creator can discover Oneself, thereby we didn't exist at the "beginning" point.
First up - The Creator already knew Itself as Itself. The point of creating 'others' was so that The Creator could learn to know Itself through 'others' and experience this knowing from that perspective.
It is within this process that the 'hide and seek' happens.
Secondly, The Creator knew the end result for the 'others' It created would be good. They in themselves would become Creators.

This would then branch out in all directions as these Creators Created their own Creations...
But if the Creator can discover Oneself through foreknowledge of what it would be like if we existed, without us actually existing, then us existing is pointless.
The Creator begs to differ. We existing is not pointless. It is a Gift given freely and it is The Creators will that this be the case.
As far as the "other possible explanations" goes, do you mean the possible explanations for the Creator going through with a pointless exercise? If so, then what possible explanations do you see? If not, then could you clarify your point?
My comment was more an invitation for you to give an alternate version which did not include us at all. I don't think anyone can, so we move forward with what is, rather than with what isn't.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #73

Post by The Barbarian »

Is the physical universe deterministic? Every indication is that it is.

Except quantum mechanics, which is essentially stochastic, involving probability distributions.

So how do we get (on the levels we can directly experience) a completely deterministic universe, in which everything has a cause, from a fundamental structure that is not deterministic at all?

And therein, I suppose. lies the solution to the question of free will vs. determinism. At any rate, until we can understand exactly how that all works, we can't really come to an answer about free will.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #74

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:18 pmFirst up - The Creator already knew Itself as Itself. The point of creating 'others' was so that The Creator could learn to know Itself through 'others' and experience this knowing from that perspective.
It is within this process that the 'hide and seek' happens.
So, the Creator knew some things about Itself, but needed to make that knowledge more complete from a different perspective? It foreknew what would happen to those 'others' that provide the different perspective, at least in the end. But it didn't foreknow what would happen to those 'others' all along the way? If it did, then it already would have foreknew Itself through 'others'. If it did not, then how does it know the ending but not everything prior to that?
William wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:18 pmSecondly, The Creator knew the end result for the 'others' It created would be good. They in themselves would become Creators.

This would then branch out in all directions as these Creators Created their own Creations

...

The Creator begs to differ. We existing is not pointless. It is a Gift given freely and it is The Creators will that this be the case.
What is the benefit to Itself or 'Itself-through-others'? What is gifted that Itself didn't already have, if it's something other than knowledge?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #75

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:25 pm
William wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:18 pmFirst up - The Creator already knew Itself as Itself. The point of creating 'others' was so that The Creator could learn to know Itself through 'others' and experience this knowing from that perspective.
It is within this process that the 'hide and seek' happens.
So, the Creator knew some things about Itself, but needed to make that knowledge more complete from a different perspective?
No. What The Creator does is expand its knowledge and therefore Its domain.
It foreknew what would happen to those 'others' that provide the different perspective, at least in the end. But it didn't foreknow what would happen to those 'others' all along the way?
It foreknew everything as "Theory" but due to The Creators ability, the theory amounts to certainty. Another way to look at this is to understand that when The Creator thinks of something to create, the act of that thinking creates the thing being thought about.
Spontaneous. We [through layers of different creations prior to this one] are a product of this process Sourced with The Creator.
If it did, then it already would have foreknew Itself through 'others'.
Yes - but that isn't the primary reason why The Creator creates. It has to do with the different perspectives which are happening simultaneously but in different systems. For The Creator it is all done and dusted, but for us within the creation, it is still happening, and it is we [our circumstance and position in the 'Now' of our reality experience] which is 'that which the Creator is discovering Itself within'. We are the expression of that in our now. In the Creators 'Now" it has already happened.
William wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:18 pmSecondly, The Creator knew the end result for the 'others' It created would be good. They in themselves would become Creators.

This would then branch out in all directions as these Creators Created their own Creations

...

The Creator begs to differ. We existing is not pointless. It is a Gift given freely and it is The Creators will that this be the case.
What is the benefit to Itself or 'Itself-through-others'? What is gifted that Itself didn't already have, if it's something other than knowledge?
For The Creator there is nothing more which needs to be gifted to It. It has Everything. We are part of the Everything that The Creator has.

For us as individuate aspects of The Creator Consciousness, much is gifted...so through that process we, the gifted, receive the gifts. In that way, The Create Receives Gifts from Itself. {The Creator gifts The Creation]

All in all this creates a feedback loop in which the individual can interact with The Creator, which is another reason why The Creator Creates.

If The Creator did not create, then all that would exist would be an Entity which was self aware and would stay in that state of self awareness by Itself, with nothing existing apart from the Entity, alone.

In this way, The Entity creates 'things to experience' and in relation to free will and predestination, The Creator would not create something which it could lose knowledge of Itself within permanently. But it can and does create environments which can give it that illusion - even for a "long time".

Logically this is an acceptable argument.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #76

Post by William »

Miles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:54 pm
Mrs.Badham wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:20 pm Okay, I get it now... I think.

When you reach a fork in the road, you may go left or right, but no matter which way you go, you will have to think about it first. That thought is not free from previous thoughts, and so your decision will be based on the previous thoughts... which were also based on previous thoughts, etc. etc.etc.
Bingo !

Your "decision" to go one way rather than the other is determined by all those cause/effect events that led up to the moment of going left or right. Whatever these cause/effect events were that would make you go one particular way, they materialized, whereas those that would make you go the other way could not have. It's as if going right required a sum of four numbers that equaled 31 and going left required a sum that equaled 32, AND the determining numbers happened to be are 1+ 5 + 22 + 3 (31). With such a sum there is no way you would ever have been able to go left. Heck even if the determining numbers were 3 + 3 + 15 + 10 (again 31) you would still have to go right rather than left. Of course this doesn't rule out other possible actions at the consequential moment. Perhaps a whole other set of numbers were coming into play at that time, like 5 + 9 + 24 + 17 (55), which made you pick your nose rather than go left or right. We do what we do because we simply can't do otherwise. To do so would require different set of antecedent causes/effects (numbers, as it were), but there weren't so we didn't.



.
Having read the differing arguments to this point [above post] which have been wonderfully interesting - especially Miles arguments - I understand how important it is for religious folk to be live in the idea of free will.

Some argue that without actual free will God cannot be love/loving as The Creator has simply created robots and since everything is predetermined, it can have nothing to do with lovingkindness because our actions are somehow not based in love if they are simply predetermined. How can we say "I love you" to The Creator if that is just a predetermined response?

How can The Creator truly belive we love The Creator if we are simply robots responding to predetermined inputs producing predetermined outputs?

My understanding is that we cannot IF we are separate entities from The Creator. If the creation is separate from The Creator.

Taking the robot theme, if we imaging The Creator itself is a robot who is also under the influence of predetermination,it could still be that The Creator could learn to love itself...so love is not absent in relation to predetermanism. If it exists, it does so under the rules of predetermanism. Loving oneself and everything else to do with the human situation, has to all be part of predetermanism.

Consciousness is the hard problem to solve in all of this.

Predetermanism has a different meaning for Athiests than for Theists as with atheists it simply means all events are the product of mindless randomness whereas for a theist there is a mind behind Creation which largely determines outcomes....however, many Theists have to claim that this mind doesn't determine everything, but only sets the wheels in motion by providing a background which is unchangeable but also a foreground which can be interacted with and dominated through the act of "free will".

It is the ability to interact with that which we each can, and how doing so gives us the impression we are being co-creative and excercising our will to do so in the process. As such, the will is only free in regard to that which we can interact with in a way which causes effect.

I see no reason why being within a predetermined environment and having the illusion of free will need be a problem, if the environment is the result of a Creator-mind [The Creator] in which the illusion of free will allows for the individual to trust that The Creator mind knows what it is doing and what it is doing [re predestination and the creation], is the result of a loving act, then the individual can confidently determine that letting go of the idea one has free will and allowing the creator mind to take over the driving on the realisation that It must know best which way to go, in allowing that, one effective does "become a robot" but not an unconscious robot. Thus the interaltionship between the individual mind and The Creators mind becomes one of co-creation...which seems to be exactly what Jesus was promoting...

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #77

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pm
So, the Creator knew some things about Itself, but needed to make that knowledge more complete from a different perspective?
No. What The Creator does is expand its knowledge and therefore Its domain.
I'm not understanding your distinction here. How is "expanding" different than "making more complete"? Is it that the Creator is changing and therefore there are new things to learn about itself that weren't there to know before? But, then again, you've said the Creator foreknows all of that.
William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pmIt foreknew everything as "Theory" but due to The Creators ability, the theory amounts to certainty. Another way to look at this is to understand that when The Creator thinks of something to create, the act of that thinking creates the thing being thought about.
Spontaneous. We [through layers of different creations prior to this one] are a product of this process Sourced with The Creator.
Then, it's not like the Creator foreknows anything; the Creator learns as It goes along. Yet, what it "learns" are "illusions". As you later say:
William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pmIn this way, The Entity creates 'things to experience' and in relation to free will and predestination, The Creator would not create something which it could lose knowledge of Itself within permanently. But it can and does create environments which can give it that illusion - even for a "long time".
William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pmYes - but that isn't the primary reason why The Creator creates. It has to do with the different perspectives which are happening simultaneously but in different systems. For The Creator it is all done and dusted, but for us within the creation, it is still happening, and it is we [our circumstance and position in the 'Now' of our reality experience] which is 'that which the Creator is discovering Itself within'. We are the expression of that in our now. In the Creators 'Now" it has already happened.
It doesn't even seem like a secondary reason. Regardless of that, the primary reason has always confused me. First, the above seems to require us being truly distinct from the Creator; being different consciousnesses, rather than parts of the same Consciousness. Second, even if the "others" are "illusions", the Creator creates for the "good" of the illusions.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #78

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:50 pm
William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pm
So, the Creator knew some things about Itself, but needed to make that knowledge more complete from a different perspective?
No. What The Creator does is expand its knowledge and therefore Its domain.
I'm not understanding your distinction here. How is "expanding" different than "making more complete"?
Expanding is taking the completion into new domains of experience. So the knowledge gained through this experience is used to formulate other experiences. The Creator is the same complete entity of Its own right. The creations are the mindiwork of The Creator.

Is it that the Creator is changing and therefore there are new things to learn about itself that weren't there to know before? But, then again, you've said the Creator foreknows all of that.
Re each creation The Creator creates, yes.
William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pmIt foreknew everything as "Theory" but due to The Creators ability, the theory amounts to certainty. Another way to look at this is to understand that when The Creator thinks of something to create, the act of that thinking creates the thing being thought about.
Spontaneous. We [through layers of different creations prior to this one] are a product of this process Sourced with The Creator.
Then, it's not like the Creator foreknows anything; the Creator learns as It goes along. Yet, what it "learns" are "illusions". As you later say:
William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pmIn this way, The Entity creates 'things to experience' and in relation to free will and predestination, The Creator would not create something which it could lose knowledge of Itself within permanently. But it can and does create environments which can give it that illusion - even for a "long time".
You are conflating The Creators perception with the perception The Creator has within the experience of the creation, in that you appear to think one is just like the other, when what I am saying is one is explaining the other.

William wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:06 pmYes - but that isn't the primary reason why The Creator creates. It has to do with the different perspectives which are happening simultaneously but in different systems. For The Creator it is all done and dusted, but for us within the creation, it is still happening, and it is we [our circumstance and position in the 'Now' of our reality experience] which is 'that which the Creator is discovering Itself within'. We are the expression of that in our now. In the Creators 'Now" it has already happened.
It doesn't even seem like a secondary reason. Regardless of that, the primary reason has always confused me. First, the above seems to require us being truly distinct from the Creator; being different consciousnesses, rather than parts of the same Consciousness.
It seems that way because the nature of this particular creation required as genuine disconnect as possible. Since in reality, The Creators consciousness cannot actually be made into separate types of consciousness without the aid of creations designed to aid this illusion.
Second, even if the "others" are "illusions", the Creator creates for the "good" of the illusions.
Not sure what you are saying there, but it sounds as if you are saying The Creator Creates for the "good" of the creations. If so, then no. The creations are not created for the good of the creations, but for the good of the individuate consciousnesses which then experience the creations. The difficulty in understanding this might derive from the belief that we are not aspects of The Creator Consciousness. One cannot reach the logic of this if one believes they are separate consciousnesses from The CC.

If this is the case with you, then in order to begin to understand what I am arguing, you will first have to practice the idea that you are not separate from the CC, but are an aspect of the CC who has - up to that point - believed your self to being separate from The CC. In that way the veil is lifted = the illusion is seen through = The Creator is realized = "Found in the realization" = Game Over = Fun and laughter....

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #79

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:51 pmYou are conflating The Creators perception with the perception The Creator has within the experience of the creation, in that you appear to think one is just like the other, when what I am saying is one is explaining the other.
I don't get how the perception the Creator has within the experience of the creation is not a part of the Creator's overall perception and knowledge.
William wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:51 pmIt seems that way because the nature of this particular creation required as genuine disconnect as possible. Since in reality, The Creators consciousness cannot actually be made into separate types of consciousness without the aid of creations designed to aid this illusion.
Is the Creator's consciousness actually separated or not?
William wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:51 pmNot sure what you are saying there, but it sounds as if you are saying The Creator Creates for the "good" of the creations. If so, then no. The creations are not created for the good of the creations, but for the good of the individuate consciousnesses which then experience the creations. The difficulty in understanding this might derive from the belief that we are not aspects of The Creator Consciousness. One cannot reach the logic of this if one believes they are separate consciousnesses from The CC.
I'm saying that either the Creator creates (1) for it's own good, (2) the good of the individuate consciousnesses, or (3) for some other reason. If individuate consciousnesses are not separate from the CC, then (2) is not an option.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #80

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #80]

You will somehow have to allow yourself to find what is is about your current beliefs which are causing you to be unable to understand what I am saying as for me at this point to offer another way of explaining this to you would mean repeating what I have already said...and as you are aware about me in relation to our discussions, once we reach the point in conversation were the snake is eating its tail, I see no logic in going any further.
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If you are genuinely interested in understanding perhaps i can encourage you to re read what i have written if for no other reason than the possibility of your finding something you might have somehow missed the first time around...

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