Questions for those who believe in free will

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Rational Atheist
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Questions for those who believe in free will

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Post by Rational Atheist »

I'm trying to understand the belief in free will. For those who believe in free will, do you believe that your actions are determined by a chain of prior causes or not? If you do, you're a determinist and do not believe in free choice, since you can't control the causes that took place before you were born. If you don't believe your actions are determined by a chain of prior causes, or don't believe that that causal chain extends to before your birth, then you believe that at some point before your action, an event occurred for no reason whatsoever (purely random). How could this possibly get you free will either? No combination of determinism nor indeterminism (randomness) gives you "free will" in the sense of authorship of and responsibility for your actions. How can you believe anyone is ultimately responsible for what they do?

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Purple Knight
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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #41

Post by Purple Knight »

Mrs.Badham wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:50 pmSo, for instance, my bowels might be telling me it’s time to go, but there’s another part of me that wants to see what happens in this TV show. My experience with TV tells me it’s only a few more minutes until the show ends, so I decide to wait, and my bowels put up with it. That’s an example of free will, because my decision was not automatic. I didn’t go to the washroom as soon as the feeling hit me, but I didn’t soil myself either.
It's a good example but they say waiting when you really have to drop a number two will give you constipation. (Not medical advice, just something I've heard. I've also heard colon cancer but I take no stock in that one whatsoever.)

Anyway, we get to the point where you believe you have a picker - something above your baser urges that decides. Something in the driver's seat.

Your consciousness. Your consciousness guides what you choose to think about. There may be a train of thought, but there's also a conductor.

Now this is just free form and I'm not trying to trick anyone into anything (I could as easily come to the idea that I'm wrong here), but let's talk about who has a consciousness and who doesn't. Whose brain is just a train with no conductor (I would think we'd both agree that bugs are this - I just saw one bap into the same light 50 times and it's angrying up my blood at this point, bip, bip, bip, over and over and over), and who has a consciousness, who has something special in the driver's seat, who has a conductor? Who has a picker at all? What about a monkey? What about a cat or dog? What about a sophisticated robot? Why or why not?
Mrs.Badham wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:50 pmI don’t understand your definition of responsibility.
I don’t understand how you hate someone for being an alcoholic, if you don’t believe it’s their choice.
Hate serves a purpose. It's there to get rid of things that need to be gotten rid of. Present company excepted because you seem to have it together, but most alcoholics don't. They will steal, cheat, lie, and sometimes even kill to get their next fix and I appear to be talking about all addicts now, not just alcoholics. You're different because either you learned by consequences to avoid that action (getting the fix at all costs) and/or choose other actions that had better consequences, or perhaps your drive to drink is bad, but not so bad as to be completely overriding. Eventually, staying with the fecal example, you will soil yourself if you try to wait infinitely. It's more or less reasonable to assume that different people can last different times. You might be able to maintain a load of 18 ounces for an 1:34, while Bob might only be able to maintain that same load for 0:29. You would then have a better ability to hold it than Bob. Just as your bowels are stronger than Bob's, perhaps the sum of your experiences and your innate ability to resist temptation is also stronger than Bob's, so with the same time sober, Bob again "soils himself," this time by inputting alcohol, and you manage to resist, perhaps even staving off temptation until its siren song is either barely audible, or you've become accustomed to resisting it. Some alcoholics are sober for decades. Some revert back on a pretty regular schedule.

Yes, I'm going to pretend people have free will so they can be punished and removed from society. I want thieves and killers in jail so they can't kill and steal any longer. That doesn't mean I believe they can or could do any different; perhaps they were just born with a strong animal drive to get that fix that I wasn't. I want crackheads in jail because they steal, lie, cheat, prostitute themselves for their next fix, share needles, and spread AIDS. Yoda was right that fear is the source of hate, and I fear getting stolen from or having one of them bite me in a drugged-induced rage and getting AIDS.

I'm the one who thinks this isn't right. I'm the one who thinks I'm just jailing an animal for being an animal.

But if I am right, I'm an animal too and I'm not at fault for my hate or my desire to get addicts and thieves and killers out of society.

However, if the free will people are right, then I say to the thieves and killers, you could have just not done that.

So you see, either way, I have an effective right to want people who kill and steal in jail.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #42

Post by The Tanager »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:23 pmNow this is just free form and I'm not trying to trick anyone into anything (I could as easily come to the idea that I'm wrong here), but let's talk about who has a consciousness and who doesn't. Whose brain is just a train with no conductor (I would think we'd both agree that bugs are this - I just saw one bap into the same light 50 times and it's angrying up my blood at this point, bip, bip, bip, over and over and over), and who has a consciousness, who has something special in the driver's seat, who has a conductor? Who has a picker at all? What about a monkey? What about a cat or dog? What about a sophisticated robot? Why or why not?
I would say humans are the only one we have insider information on and can communicate with, so all we can really make a pronouncement on are humans. I think we have the appearance of consciousness, the initial intuition that this is more than just an appearance, and it's the simplest answer (Occam's razor). For these reasons, I think it's more rational to go with consciousness (in free will sense) as true unless a defeater comes along to point to determinism being true. I have seen no such defeaters in my readings and discussions with others.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #43

Post by Purple Knight »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:14 amcan communicate with,

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #44

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #44]

That was a vague comment that I made. I meant communicate in a way that gives us enough information on the kind of free will that is usually meant in free will vs. determinism discussions. And I may be wrong about that. I'm not sure if the video shows this, I'd have to think more through that and I'm certainly open to any help doing so.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #45

Post by Purple Knight »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:22 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #44]

That was a vague comment that I made. I meant communicate in a way that gives us enough information on the kind of free will that is usually meant in free will vs. determinism discussions. And I may be wrong about that. I'm not sure if the video shows this, I'd have to think more through that and I'm certainly open to any help doing so.
The gorilla as a species is estimated to have an IQ of about 85. So there are probably exceptional individuals that are on the same level as humans.

They have the same emotional range as humans and experience loss. A gorilla can have a cat and love it, just as a human can. It has no good purely-survivalist reason to do so.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #46

Post by William »

I think that if determanism is the opposite of free will there can be a way in which both can opperate within the same universe

If the creator of such a universe knew how that universe would unfold from start to finish then that is clearly determinism.

However, if the creator made that universe appear to be random to any consciousness within it by making sure that said consciouness had no prior memory of ever having existed then that consciouness of its own will could experience "free will" decisions from its perspective even that in truth said univrse was determined from its conception and the creator would know how anyone would choose.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #47

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:49 amIf the creator of such a universe knew how that universe would unfold from start to finish then that is clearly determinism.
This is a common belief and I just don't understand the connection. How does knowing how something will turn out equal causing it to turn out that way instead of another one? I know how Star Wars turns out but I didn't cause it to turn out that way.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #48

Post by Miles »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:47 am
William wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:49 amIf the creator of such a universe knew how that universe would unfold from start to finish then that is clearly determinism.
This is a common belief and I just don't understand the connection. How does knowing how something will turn out equal causing it to turn out that way instead of another one? I know how Star Wars turns out but I didn't cause it to turn out that way.
I believe William is thinking that because god knows how each point in time will unfold, it couldn't unfold any differently, even our thoughts, which would include what we will. Therefore, there's no room for the will to act freely, but only as how god has seen it work. If god has seen us pick up the orange instead of the apple at some point in the future, there's is no way our will could direct us to pick up the apple at the same point in time.

If I've misunderstood you here, William, please correct me.



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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #49

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:47 am
William wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:49 amIf the creator of such a universe knew how that universe would unfold from start to finish then that is clearly determinism.
This is a common belief and I just don't understand the connection. How does knowing how something will turn out equal causing it to turn out that way instead of another one? I know how Star Wars turns out but I didn't cause it to turn out that way.
Your use of the star wars analogy shows me your confusion on this issue.

If you pick up a stone and throw it into a lake, is it the lake or the stone that caused the ensuring ripple effect?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #50

Post by The Tanager »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:24 pmI believe William is thinking that because god knows how each point in time will unfold, it couldn't unfold any differently, even our thoughts, which would include what we will. Therefore, there's no room for the will to act freely, but only as how god has seen it work. If god has seen us pick up the orange instead of the apple at some point in the future, there's is no way our will could direct us to pick up the apple at the same point in time.
That's how I took his statement as well. Free will isn't the view that we can do things differently than how we actually end up doing things. Of course, what happens, happens. When we are making the choice to pick up the orange, we could have picked up the apple instead, but freely chose to pick up the orange. Seeing our choice informs God's knowledge; God's knowledge doesn't cause our choice.

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