Mathematics:

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

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Miles
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Mathematics:

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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Invented or Discovered?





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Miles
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Re: Mathematics - Invented or Discovered

Post #11

Post by Miles »

elijahpne wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:46 am [Replying to Miles in post #9]

Miles wrote:
Dirac did not believe in God. He once said: "God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world," but here he used 'God' as a metaphor for nature.
To whomever scientists - atheist or not - attribute the intelligence they found in the Universe through objective research, study and analysis, the one fact they can't deny is that there is an intelligent designer whether they attribute it to, subjectively, metaphorically: Nature, Chance, Evolution -
Lacking reasonable evidence for an intelligent designer why can't they deny it?


The eminent scientist, Fred Hoyle, himself an atheist discounted Nature and attributed it directly to "a superintellect". Note what the Wikipedia article about him says:
After saying "that biomaterials with their amazing measure of order must be the outcome of intelligent design." Wikipedia adds:

Though Hoyle declared himself an atheist, this apparent suggestion of a guiding hand led him to the conclusion that "a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and ... there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature." - Wikipedia, Fred Hoyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle
Not that it matters here, but as a point of interest I think it's worth mentioning that Hoyle rejected the Big Bang theory. The reason it doesn't matter is that the opinion of Hoyle and any other noted personality you care to cite doesn't add one iota of substance to the evidence of an intelligent designer. Got some evidence, then I'm all ears. Going to cite a list of Who's-Who who believe this and that, then I'm taking a nap.


As to why others would conclude differently, Hoyle remarked:
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I notice, however, we're already off on a tangent from our original discussion as to whether math is discovered or invented. This discussion about intelligent design probably belongs to another sub-forum.
Indeed it does, but go ahead and post one. It might be interesting to have a discussion on cdesign proponentsists. :approve: I don't think one has been posted in some time.

Actually, if I remember correctly, ID was buried under a pile of evidence and argument that pretty much smothered any further interest in it.

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Re: Mathematics:

Post #12

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.


Tcg
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Re: Mathematics:

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Tcg wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]

There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.


Tcg
Right on. Its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.


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Re: Mathematics:

Post #14

Post by Tcg »

Miles wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:25 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]

There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.


Tcg
Here you're talking about words whereas in the OP I was talking about a concept; however, I do agree that its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.


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Yes, I used words only as an example of how mathematical notation may have developed.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Mathematics:

Post #15

Post by Miles »

Tcg wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:35 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:25 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]

There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.


Tcg
Here you're talking about words whereas in the OP I was talking about a concept; however, I do agree that its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.


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Yes, I used words only as an example of how mathematical notation may have developed.


Tcg
Yeah, I edited my reply just before you posted this. I do recognize it as only an example. :approve:


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Re: Mathematics:

Post #16

Post by Tcg »

Miles wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:42 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:35 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:25 pm
Tcg wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #1]

There is a parallel with nature. Did the word "tree" cause the hard wooded plant to exist? Of course not. The word was developed to identify that which already existed.


Tcg
Here you're talking about words whereas in the OP I was talking about a concept; however, I do agree that its existence was a fact long before anyone was around to recognize it.


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Yes, I used words only as an example of how mathematical notation may have developed.


Tcg
Yeah, I edited my reply just before you posted this. I do recognize it as only an example. :approve:


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I guess it's just my own simplistic way to understand it. Both mathematics and language can be very complex, but both seem to be used to explain what already exists or at least what we think already exists.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Mathematics:

Post #17

Post by Gracchus »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]
The language describing mathematics is invented. Mathematics itself is discovered.

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Re: Mathematics:

Post #18

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Miles wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:38 am .


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Invented or Discovered?





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I must say that I lean toward mathematics being about discovery more than invention.

Unexpected relationships constantly arise in mathematics and some take years to fully comprehend, so how something like that can be called "invention" is not clear to me.

Besides that, what is the basis for "invention" anyway? if I do invent something it is always based on something previously discovered surely?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: Mathematics:

Post #19

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

Miles wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:38 am .


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Invented or Discovered?





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The arbitrary symbols human beings use to represent mathematical principles are of course invented. However, the underlying principles themselves are nothing of the sort. This becomes evident when one considers that all possible universes are causally constrained by certain fundamental mathematical principles (which are ultimately reducible to basal constraints of logic). Therefore, because these foundational principles necessarily precede (causally) all possible forms of terrestrial intelligence (and the universes which might house them), they cannot be invented; only discovered, cataloged, and codified.

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Re: Mathematics:

Post #20

Post by William »

[Replying to Ionian_Tradition in post #19]

Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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