Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

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Miles
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Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

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Post by Miles »

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Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #41

Post by mac_ »

Miles wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 pm
mac_ wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:57 pm But if I accept the premise that I have no choice about what I conclude, I, nor anyone else can know whether a conclusion is true. Isn't that problematic?
Not at all. As a "freewiller" one may or may not ever know conclusion X is true. As a determinist one may or may not ever know conclusion X is true. A guarantee doesn't come with either one. Your reasoning as a freewiller may be just as corrupt, or just as spot on, as the information arrived at through determinism. Again, there's no guarantee either way.
I agree a freewiller's reasoning my be flawed. The question is still how people can conclude whether it is or not.
Miles wrote:As for actually knowing, this would come down to the degree a conclusion could be said to be a fact; that is, confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold at least provisional assent.
Ok. But how does one confirm things?

I could write a simple syllogism: Socrates is a man, all men are mortal....etc. and I'm sure you'd agree with me it's at least logically consistent. Yet we came to this conclusion without any knowledge of our brain-states.

So it would seem that reasoning, to at least some level of certainty, can be done without any knowledge of the physical state of affairs in one's brain.

Yet the determinist connects everything to such physical states...which seems to inevitably lead to a logical loop of uncertainty.
Non-religious theist.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #42

Post by Miles »

mac_ wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:24 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 pm
mac_ wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:57 pm But if I accept the premise that I have no choice about what I conclude, I, nor anyone else can know whether a conclusion is true. Isn't that problematic?
Not at all. As a "freewiller" one may or may not ever know conclusion X is true. As a determinist one may or may not ever know conclusion X is true. A guarantee doesn't come with either one. Your reasoning as a freewiller may be just as corrupt, or just as spot on, as the information arrived at through determinism. Again, there's no guarantee either way.
I agree a freewiller's reasoning my be flawed. The question is still how people can conclude whether it is or not.
Like any reasoning; does it make sense, is it well thought out, does it have any weaknesses, etc., etc.

Miles wrote:As for actually knowing, this would come down to the degree a conclusion could be said to be a fact; that is, confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold at least provisional assent.
Ok. But how does one confirm things?
Depends wholly on the issue/subject.

I could write a simple syllogism: Socrates is a man, all men are mortal....etc. and I'm sure you'd agree with me it's at least logically consistent. Yet we came to this conclusion without any knowledge of our brain-states.
Yup. Don't need to know how the picture gets onto the screen in order to enjoy the movie.

So it would seem that reasoning, to at least some level of certainty, can be done without any knowledge of the physical state of affairs in one's brain.
Absolutely. Heck people were coming to excellent conclusions before the wheel was invented and knew the brain even existed.

Yet the determinist connects everything to such physical states...which seems to inevitably lead to a logical loop of uncertainty.
Why? Why does it seem to inevitably lead to a logical loop of uncertainty? And just what is this inevitable logical loop of uncertainty, anyway?



Just as an FYI, here's a reply I made some years ago in answer to why I don't believe in free will, but consider myself a determinist.


I'm a determinist because no one has yet shown how thinking of something, both consciously and unconsciously, can take place without being caused---in which case it would be working utterly at random. And because causes are not random events, each is dependent on whatever it was that brought them into existence. "A" arose rather than "B" because the preceding effects; a,f ,d, i, c, and n determined "A" would arise rather than not. Free will asserts that, in effect, the will of the mind operates all on its own. That is, nothing pushes it one way or the other. It simply chooses, out of thin air (in effect, utterly randomly), to do A rather than B. Now if this makes sense to you go right ahead and believe free will exists, but personally, it makes absolutely no sense to me. The will of the mind operates as it does because it has no choice to do any differently. It is not free.

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On Going Left Or Right

Your "decision" to go one way rather than the other is determined by all those cause/effect events that led up to the moment of going left or right. Whatever these cause/effect events were that would make you go a particular way, they materialized, whereas those that would make you go the other way could not have. It's as if going right required a sum of four numbers that equaled 31 and going left required a sum that equaled 32, AND the determining numbers happened to be 1+ 5 +22 + 3 (31). With such a sum there is no way you would ever have been able to go left. Heck even if the determining numbers were 3 + 3 + 15 + 10 (again 31) you would still have to go right rather than left. Of course this doesn't rule out other possible actions at the consequential moment. Perhaps a whole other set of numbers were coming into play at that time, like 5 + 9 + 24 + 17 (55), which made you pick your nose rather than go left or right. We do what we do because we simply cannot do otherwise. To do so would require different set of antecedent causes/effects (numbers, as it were), but there weren't so we didn't.



To note: I do have an older, more comprehensive explanation, but at the moment am unable to find it.



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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #43

Post by Difflugia »

Miles wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:31 pmJust as an FYI, here's a reply I made some years ago in answer to why I don't believe in free will, but consider myself a determinist.
My personal view is that "will" is deterministic, at least practically, but on a grand scale, the universe isn't. Neurons function on the macro scale. The buildup of chemical gradients of neurotransmitters involves such huge numbers of molecules that any individual quantum event will be completely lost in the overall sea of probability. One milligram of caffeine, for example, contains on the order of 3×1018 molecules. There are rare events in the universe, though, that are determined by a single quantum event.

This is a video from a couple of years ago that I enjoyed. The person in the video makes a random number generator that is triggered by a muon striking a detector. A human being can react to the number in a way that is effectively deterministic based on the input, but the input itself is a random event. Cosmic indeterminism is compatible with a deterministic lack of free will.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #44

Post by Miles »

Difflugia wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:28 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:31 pmJust as an FYI, here's a reply I made some years ago in answer to why I don't believe in free will, but consider myself a determinist.
My personal view is that "will" is deterministic, at least practically, but on a grand scale, the universe isn't. Neurons function on the macro scale. The buildup of chemical gradients of neurotransmitters involves such huge numbers of molecules that any individual quantum event will be completely lost in the overall sea of probability. One milligram of caffeine, for example, contains on the order of 3×1018 molecules. There are rare events in the universe, though, that are determined by a single quantum event.

This is a video from a couple of years ago that I enjoyed. The person in the video makes a random number generator that is triggered by a muon striking a detector. A human being can react to the number in a way that is effectively deterministic based on the input, but the input itself is a random event. Cosmic indeterminism is compatible with a deterministic lack of free will.

Nice video, although at times it does play a little fast and loose with the word "random."

To note. Just because we don't or cannot know how an effect comes about doesn't mean it's uncaused, which prompts qualifiers such as, "As far as we can tell particle decay is a completely random unpredictable process at the most basic of levels." Unpredictability only means we lack the ability to detect a cause, not that a cause doesn't exist. And saying that "You can observe absolutely everything that there is to observe about a Payan [Pion] and not be able to predict when that [pion] is going to spontaneously pop out of existence and decay into a muon." does not mean the decay is uncaused, because as he later admits "If we could see inside the particles is there a little clockwork that's ticking down there's a pi on [pion]. There and it's got a little clock inside it's going 5 4 3 2 1 poof and then you've got a muon. We don't know."

Keep in mind that the random quantum events talked about are not at all necessarily outright, utterly uncaused, but those whose cause we simply have not identified, which is why the guy in the video pulls his punches when he says "As far as we can tell" and admits that We don't know. As it now stands, there is no cosmic indeterminism that speaks of any truly, utterly random event.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #45

Post by Rose2020 »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Yes. It is an active choice. This choice is exercised, certainly in my case, by a change taking place mentally and spiritually. A deep down change triggered by events and knowledge. At the moment of realisation that God is real, comes the faith.
The fact remains we have that choice. Just as we choose right or wrong, this path or that path.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #46

Post by Miles »

Rose2020 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:16 am [Replying to Miles in post #1]

Yes. It is an active choice. This choice is exercised, certainly in my case, by a change taking place mentally and spiritually. A deep down change triggered by events and knowledge. At the moment of realisation that God is real, comes the faith.
The fact remains we have that choice. Just as we choose right or wrong, this path or that path.
As I read your explanation, first some deep down event and knowledge has to trigger a mental and spiritual change before any choosing takes place. So the whole thing is not dependent on what one does, but on what god chooses to do, i.e. produce the event and knowledge trigger. No trigger : No choosing to believe in god. Essentially, the ball's in god's court-------Interesting.


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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #47

Post by Rose2020 »

Yes, Jesus knocks on your door, you choose to answer or not.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #48

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]
Yes, we can choose to believe in God. There is both Biblical and psychological support for this.
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.
_ James 4:8
The child chooses to believe in God to please his parents when they make it clear they want him to join their belief system. The young adult chooses to believe in God for various reasons. He may have a girlfriend or she may have a boyfriend who is a believer and the chooser decides to believe because consciously or unconsciously they see the choice as enhancing or furthering the relationship.

Many years ago I recall struggling consciously with both these thoughts.
Today I can say that, for me, I could still choose to believe.
It would only cost me my sense of intellectual honesty.
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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

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Post by Miles »

Diogenes wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:35 am [Replying to Miles in post #1]
Yes, we can choose to believe in God. There is both Biblical and psychological support for this.
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.
_ James 4:8
The child chooses to believe in God to please his parents when they make it clear they want him to join their belief system.
From what I've seen, a child's belief in god comes not from choosing anything, but is simply a result of unconsciously falling in step with their parent's belief.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #50

Post by Miles »

Rose2020 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:27 pm Yes, Jesus knocks on your door, you choose to answer or not.
And what of those ignorant of Christianity whose door Jesus does not knock at?

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..........................................................................................................NICE ALTERNATIVE Thanks, God.

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