Ontological Proof There is No God

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1265 times

Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.

God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.

Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.

Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.

That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

Kylie
Apprentice
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:19 am
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #11

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:33 am
Kylie wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:02 am
Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pmSince he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
This assumes that there is only one kind of perfection.

If there are several different ways to be perfect, then God could change from one to another and experience change without giving up perfection.
Yes, there is only one 'perfection.' God is it and any deviation therefrom is imperfect. Since perfection is an absolute, there can be only a single manifestation of that perfection.
The Catholic Church has humbly followed the Lord's radical teachings, knowing that it can't improve on the Word of God. The Church has been persecuted throughout the ages, but so was its founder. Jesus Christ is the same ---yesterday, today, and tomorrow, because He is our all-knowing Creator and God who is all-perfect and unchangeable.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinio ... /10324629/

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/ ... Unchanging

It does sound a bit goofy, but this is the claim of Christianity. It is not MY claim. It is the position of the Church.
This is simply making the assertion, not demonstrating it.

There is a perfect circle. There is also a perfect square.

If a perfect circle turns into a perfect square, it is still perfect and has not ceased to be perfect, yet it has changed.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #12

Post by Purple Knight »

Kylie wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:04 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
This, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.

If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?
You might not be able to show it, but an obvious bumbler can't get out of his mistakes by saying, "I meant to do that."

A perfect being would never make a mistake.

Kylie
Apprentice
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:19 am
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #13

Post by Kylie »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:29 pm
Kylie wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:04 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
This, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.

If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?
You might not be able to show it, but an obvious bumbler can't get out of his mistakes by saying, "I meant to do that."

A perfect being would never make a mistake.
But how could you tell the difference?

If some being is doing things, but never tells you in advance what their plan is, and then they say they are finished and everything went completely according to their plan, how do you tell if this being is a perfect being that accomplished exactly what they wanted or if they are a bumbling fool who is just acting like what happened was what they intended all along?

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #14

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:29 pm
Kylie wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:04 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
This, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.

If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?
You might not be able to show it, but an obvious bumbler can't get out of his mistakes by saying, "I meant to do that."

A perfect being would never make a mistake.
The Christian God has another excuse up his sleeve called Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil. God can avoid the blame for anything by blaming him/it. Of course, one has to question the perfection of a being who would create such a beast. That's when the freewill argument gets played. It's a fairly airtight system if one accepts the numerous unsupported assumptions that girder it.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Aetixintro
Site Supporter
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:18 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 27 times
Contact:

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #15

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Why bother with an ontological proof of no existing God when science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?

Why not argue against existence in general? But then again, arguing against existence and truth should declare a person incompetent because the person would be unable to relate to truth. Reductio ad absurdum? 8-)

Good night from Europe :thanks:
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1265 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #16

Post by Diogenes »

Aetixintro wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:35 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Why bother with an ontological proof of no existing God when science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?
"... science has proven God out there at the fringes of the Universe?" Can you support this claim? How has science proven God is anywhere? ... fringes or otherwise? Please show us the empirical evidence from a scientific experiment, if you have some.
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #17

Post by Purple Knight »

Kylie wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:28 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:29 pmA perfect being would never make a mistake.
But how could you tell the difference?
I might not be able to. I admit that. But I do tend to get the idea when someone always covers for their mistakes by saying they meant to do that. And in the end it doesn't matter if I can tell the difference or not. If it was really a mistake then they're not perfect.
Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:29 pmThe Christian God has another excuse up his sleeve called Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil. God can avoid the blame for anything by blaming him/it. Of course, one has to question the perfection of a being who would create such a beast.
I do question its motivation.

Though I also acknowledge it's hard to say I prefer a world where I can't choose to do wrong. I do think I prefer such a world but I honestly don't know since I haven't lived without what religious people call my "free will" yet. If it's the scenario I imagine of being trapped in my body, but my body always makes good decisions and is praised as moral, heck yes, I choose that. Many people wouldn't want that. I would.

But what I really think is that there is no such thing as free will, and it's all just a convenient contrivance to explain why people aren't perfect.

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20499
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 335 times
Contact:

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #18

Post by otseng »

Aetixintro wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:35 pmshould declare a person incompetent because the person would be unable to relate to truth
Moderator Comment

Please avoid any indirect attacks.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #19

Post by nobspeople »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pm One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.

God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.

Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.

Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.

That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
I've made similar points, to which I was rebuffed by the below comments:
'God can know everything but chooses not to know everything'
'Why does perfect have to mean as you describe?'
'God can need something and still be undemanding'
And on and on.
The point is, with god (God for those that need to see it with a 'G' :roll: ) one can make up any definition they want; use any criteria they want because in reality there's no real god outside with own mind no matter how much they stomp their foot and protest otherwise! And deep down, they know it. They won't admit it, but they know it.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Aetixintro
Site Supporter
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:18 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 27 times
Contact:

Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #20

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #16]

I know how they do it, least, some 30 years after it took place in England at a radar site for earliest radio-astronomy interpreting the outermost Sloan Wall by radiological signals, one can make this output to a screen and there, "telepathically", communicate with God confirmed by (f)MRI. Good?

Also, the radiological signature is similar to (some) ghosts who we now (and earlier rather) can see directly with proper viewing devices, think Infra-Red devices and such.

There is really no need for religious conviction anymore. God is out there, for sure.
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

Post Reply