Ontological Proof There is No God

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Diogenes
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Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Diogenes »

One can prove there is no god as described in the Bible from reason alone.

God is, by definition according to Christian theology, perfect, all knowing and all powerful. This god has no needs or desires. 'He' is complete unto himself. He is perfect.

Since he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.

Therefore God not only had no desire to create 'man,' no need to create man, the creation of any fundamental change to the universe, to existence itself, would constitute a change from perfection. Any change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.

That homo sapiens exists is therefore proof there was no preexisting and perfect God.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Difflugia »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pmAny change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.
Perhaps the expression of that perfection requires that the combination of God and the universe achieves different states through time. Kind of like how the perfect movie likely wouldn't just be two hours of the same perfect frame.

This is objectively the best frame from the best movie ever:

Image

Any longer than a half-hour, though, and it would start to get boring.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Diogenes »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:51 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pmAny change from an absolutely perfect state must be a change from perfection to a lesser state, therefore God did not create man since to do so would imply he was not previously perfect.
Perhaps the expression of that perfection requires that the combination of God and the universe achieves different states through time. Kind of like how the perfect movie likely wouldn't just be two hours of the same perfect frame.
:) Your post points out the absurdity of the medieval scholastics and their fetish for absolutes such as the 'perfection' of God. The point of the OP may be to point out the folly of using such definitions. The 'perfection' of a conceptual being like God to prove 'He' exists can just as easily be used to prove 'He' does not. The 'Cosmological Proof' (Kalam or otherwise) suffers from the same disability.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Purple Knight »

Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.

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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Diogenes »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
But to the classic Christian apologist it means much more.

"His essence is actus purus et perfectus. This follows from the fivefold proof for the existence of God; namely, there must be a first mover, unmoved, a first cause in the chain of causes, an absolutely necessary being, an absolutely perfect being, and a rational designer. In this connection the thoughts of the unity, infinity, unchangeability, and goodness of the highest being are deduced."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:04 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
But to the classic Christian apologist it means much more.

"His essence is actus purus et perfectus. This follows from the fivefold proof for the existence of God; namely, there must be a first mover, unmoved, a first cause in the chain of causes, an absolutely necessary being, an absolutely perfect being, and a rational designer. In this connection the thoughts of the unity, infinity, unchangeability, and goodness of the highest being are deduced."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica
Well I think that's silly. I mean, you've more or less shown that.

So when I give the other side charity, which I ought, I'm going to give an interpretation of perfection that isn't flat logically impossible.

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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #7

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pmSince he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
This assumes that there is only one kind of perfection.

If there are several different ways to be perfect, then God could change from one to another and experience change without giving up perfection.

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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

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Post by Kylie »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:10 pm Perfect, to me, in context, just means doesn't make mistakes.
This, to me, implies that God is aiming for some pre-specified outcome, and anything that does not lead to that outcome is a mistake.

If God has no such outcome specified, then nothing he does could be classed as a mistake, because how would you show it's a mistake?

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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #9

Post by Diogenes »

Kylie wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:02 am
Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pmSince he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
This assumes that there is only one kind of perfection.

If there are several different ways to be perfect, then God could change from one to another and experience change without giving up perfection.
Yes, there is only one 'perfection.' God is it and any deviation therefrom is imperfect. Since perfection is an absolute, there can be only a single manifestation of that perfection.
The Catholic Church has humbly followed the Lord's radical teachings, knowing that it can't improve on the Word of God. The Church has been persecuted throughout the ages, but so was its founder. Jesus Christ is the same ---yesterday, today, and tomorrow, because He is our all-knowing Creator and God who is all-perfect and unchangeable.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinio ... /10324629/

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/ ... Unchanging

It does sound a bit goofy, but this is the claim of Christianity. It is not MY claim. It is the position of the Church.
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Re: Ontological Proof There is No God

Post #10

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Kylie wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:02 am
Diogenes wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:46 pmSince he is already perfect any change is a change from perfection.
This assumes that there is only one kind of perfection.

If there are several different ways to be perfect, then God could change from one to another and experience change without giving up perfection.
Perfectly slippery comes to mind.
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