Muslims worship Muhammad…

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):

While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.

I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:

Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).

[Rathpig]

Off topic, but could we then also say, "The teachings of Christianity are what Christians do. ....

Not only is this correct in substance, but it is even more demonstrable for Christianity. It is a general theme within Abrahamism.

(Also off topic, but "Christ"-ianity is so far removed from the reputed teachings of "Christ" take it consists entirely of believer invented superstitious constructs.)

[Rathpig]

If you can explain that then I will believe you?

That was exactly the point. Perhaps someone, who happens to be a Muslim, just assumes that Buddha was a legendary figure of questionable provenance and likes to have a jolly fat man on the mantel of their fireplace.

Are they then "worshiping" Buddha?




Oh, but Muhammad in the exact same position with a little script idol is some not "worship"? Cognitive dissonance doesn't solve contradiction. And this is a contradiction which Islam cannot avoid ~ because Islam at its core is Muhammadan worship.

[Rathpig]

But the evolution theory is?

The theory of evolution is evidence, well-developed, and demonstrable.

Show me any aspect of the Muhammadan superstitions which are evidenced, well-developed, or demonstrable. Abrahamism is a regional mythology with no basis in empirical reality.

Show me Allah.

[muhammad rasullah]

Because if you were a muslim you wouldn't have a statue of buddha because it is prohibited to have statues in your home as a muslim, also the making and purchasing of statues is as well.

Oh, I understand very well.

An above example shows a fetish and statue made from a name. This is said not to be "worship", however cleverly it is equivocated and disguised, but the mere existence of another statue would be anathema because it obviously represents worship.

To understand the hypocrisy of Islam, one must only take an objective view of Islam.

Well the thing is that buddha is an actual person a statue made of a person that is what a statue is! Second buddha is actually worshipped as a God.

Thirdly you have little knowlegde of Islam because every muslim must say when accepting Islam that I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship but ALLAH and I bear witness that the prophet muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) is the MESSENGER OF ALLAH. Now you tell me how a messenger sent by Allah is Allah himself?
If you can explain that then I will believe you?

Really?? Since when? Buddah is a god? From http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-94 ... ists-1.htm

2. Do Buddhists think Buddha is God?
No, we do not. The Buddha did not say he was a god.
There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".

Well I guess you got me maybe buddha isnt believed to be a God but that still doesnt make your argument correct that muslims worship muhammad. This can never be proven.

[muhammad rasullah]

If you can explain that then I will believe you?

That was exactly the point. Perhaps someone, who happens to be a Muslim, just assumes that Buddha was a legendary figure of questionable provenance and likes to have a jolly fat man on the mantel of their fireplace.

Are they then "worshiping" Buddha?




Oh, but Muhammad in the exact same position with a little script idol is some not "worship"? Cognitive dissonance doesn't solve contradiction. And this is a contradiction which Islam cannot avoid ~ because Islam at its core is Muhammadan worship.

Again as a muslim we are not to make stoned images or idols let alone have them in our homes. Buddha is praised by the people who follow him and they set him up as partners or better than Allah when he is not. So for a person to do this they are no longer worshiping Allah because apart of worship is obedience and they are not obeying Allah in this regard besides what would be the purpose of having it there in the first place? The confusion you have with Islam is that you seem to think just because we follow what the prophet did that we worship him? This is ridiculous because by following Muhammad is apart of worshiping Allah because he is the messnger of Allah and that is what he was sent to do. He never claimed to be God so anyone to praise him as such is wrong. Just because you follow a person does not mean you worship them.
Muslims dont call upon the prophet for forgiveness they call on Allah, we dont call on the prophet for anything we call on Allah that is worship.

[Goat]

Because if you were a muslim you wouldn't have a statue of buddha because it is prohibited to have statues in your home as a muslim, also the making and purchasing of statues is as well.

Oh, I understand very well.

An above example shows a fetish and statue made from a name. This is said not to be "worship", however cleverly it is equivocated and disguised, but the mere existence of another statue would be anathema because it obviously represents worship.

To understand the hypocrisy of Islam, one must only take an objective view of Islam.

Well the thing is that buddha is an actual person a statue made of a person that is what a statue is! Second buddha is actually worshipped as a God.

Thirdly you have little knowlegde of Islam because every muslim must say when accepting Islam that I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship but ALLAH and I bear witness that the prophet muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) is the MESSENGER OF ALLAH. Now you tell me how a messenger sent by Allah is Allah himself?
If you can explain that then I will believe you?

Really?? Since when? Buddah is a god? From http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-94 ... ists-1.htm

2. Do Buddhists think Buddha is God?
No, we do not. The Buddha did not say he was a god.
There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".

Well I guess you got me maybe buddha isnt believed to be a God but that still doesnt make your argument correct that muslims worship muhammad. This can never be proven.

What is 'worship' but a high level of veneration. It wasn't said they worship him as God, or partly god. However, .. it is hard to deny that he is not venerated far above any other man. How many prayers talk about "Allah and his prophet Mohammad"? And, when people get upset, is it because Allah is insulted?? No, it is because Mohammad gets the perceived insult. Those are the actions that are pointed to because as example of 'Mohammad worship'. I was just pointing out that your 'you too' arguement that buddhist think Buddah is god is incorrect. That invalidates your claim about Buddhism. That does not address your lack of support about how Mohammad is treated in Islam.

The comment that 'perhaps Muslims love Mohammad too much' is showing a sense that he IS worshiped, but not wanting to call it that.

I will concede the point when Muslims no longer mention Mohammad in their prayers, and no longer try to kill people, or doing vasts amount of protests over cartoons, teddy bears who get named Mohammad , and criticism.

[muhammad rasullah]

But the evolution theory is?

The theory of evolution is evidence, well-developed, and demonstrable.

Show me any aspect of the Muhammadan superstitions which are evidenced, well-developed, or demonstrable. Abrahamism is a regional mythology with no basis in empirical reality.

Show me Allah.

Well we know that this is false. The theory of evolution is not evidence but much speculation and assumption. As I posted in another thread the idea of natural selection is very illogical should never have been considered as scientific. I dont know what muhammadan superstitions your talking about but i can show you some things which are evidenced by science.

Show me Allah. That question is very ridiculous if you only knew. Allah does not exists in the world of time, matter and space. Since he is the creator of time matter and space and the laws that exists within them he can not exist in them because he would be subject to those laws. therefore he exists out side of these things but evidence for his existence is present within them. So your question is very ridiculous asking to see Allah and what you want to do is bring him do to an existence of time, matter and space where he can't exist. So by asking this question you will never get an answer as to see Allah.
Of course you know that science has discovered that the universe is expanding Albert Einstein and there are many significant things about this finding. First the quran said this over 1400 years ago.
51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.

Another significant thing in finding that the universe is expanding is by calculations you go back to the beginning and science has gone back to what they call a singularity. A particle that is infinitely small infinitely dense and infinitely hot. So there is no question at all about the universe having a beginning. Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose their principal is called the Space time theorem of general relativity and it tells us that through math that space, time and matter all began at the big bang and there was nothing before it. Something that muslims believe.

Also we know that the universe is not eternal time matter nor space is. When we look into the universe we see design we say this design is from Allah. We say that it had to have been an infinite eternal power to bring into existence time, space and matter when there was nothing and it did not exist as science has proven. So what would we expect if it were an intelligent, eternal, infinite power to have created this. We would expect evidence to see evidence of that throughout the things that exist. And this is what we observe. The theory of evolution uses natural selection to explain how things came into existence stating that you have self producing beings and the fittest of those survive and they leave behind the less fit and so on and so on and hence comes complexity slowly over millions of years.

Well the amazing discovery of Stephen Hawking is that the laws of nature did not evolve by natural selection they popped into existence instantly after the big bang.
A number of 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the big bang which is called Planks Wall meaning earlier beyond that point scientific equations cannot go!! And soon thereafter a split second thereafter all of the laws of nature popped into existence perfectly fine tuned to support the existence of life. The amazing thing about this is that if any one of these laws would have been different lets say gravity we would not be able to exist.

Know after all of this to say that there is no evidence for a creator it is very ridiculous to say after knowing this. Science looks at things as axiomatic and they begin with those natural laws saying that the atoms and molecules build themselves on their own according to the laws of nature. Of course it is easy to begin with those laws but it begs the question...Where did those laws come from? I f you want to see Allah then jus carefully and unbiasedly examine this and you'll see that Allah exist.

[Goat]

But the evolution theory is?

The theory of evolution is evidence, well-developed, and demonstrable.

Show me any aspect of the Muhammadan superstitions which are evidenced, well-developed, or demonstrable. Abrahamism is a regional mythology with no basis in empirical reality.

Show me Allah.

Well we know that this is false. The theory of evolution is not evidence but much speculation and assumption. As I posted in another thread the idea of natural selection is very illogical should never have been considered as scientific. I dont know what muhammadan superstitions your talking about but i can show you some things which are evidenced by science.

No.. we know the theory of evolution is based on hard evidence, and after 150 years of it trying to be falsified, it hasn't been. IT has overcome all challenges thrown against it. It has made a number of predictions that have been verified, and it has also is very useful in the development of medicines. Now, you considering natural selection 'illogical' is just the logical fallacy of personal incredibilty (also known as arguement from ignorance) because of the vast array of evidence that you deny.

as for 'mohammadan superstitions, please show me evidence of Djinn. I don't consider showing an exorcism evidence that Djinn or demons exist btw.

Show me Allah. That question is very ridiculous if you only knew. Allah does not exists in the world of time, matter and space. Since he is the creator of time matter and space and the laws that exists within them he can not exist in them because he would be subject to those laws. therefore he exists out side of these things but evidence for his existence is present within them. So your question is very ridiculous asking to see Allah and what you want to do is bring him do to an existence of time, matter and space where he can't exist. So by asking this question you will never get an answer as to see Allah.

And what is the evidence do you have that there is anything outside time and space?

And, if he can't exist in time and space, then how does he do anything in time and space.. it sounds like someone read just too much science fiction to come up with some unsupportable asserstions that sound nifty, but can't be tested. It sounds like an excuse, not reality.

Of course you know that science has discovered that the universe is expanding Albert Einstein and there are many significant things about this finding. First the quran said this over 1400 years ago.
51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.

Another significant thing in finding that the universe is expanding is by calculations you go back to the beginning and science has gone back to what they call a singularity. A particle that is infinitely small infinitely dense and infinitely hot. So there is no question at all about the universe having a beginning. Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose their principal is called the Space time theorem of general relativity and it tells us that through math that space, time and matter all began at the big bang and there was nothing before it. Something that muslims believe.

Also we know that the universe is not eternal time matter nor space is. When we look into the universe we see design we say this design is from Allah. We say that it had to have been an infinite eternal power to bring into existence time, space and matter when there was nothing and it did not exist as science has proven. So what would we expect if it were an intelligent, eternal, infinite power to have created this. We would expect evidence to see evidence of that throughout the things that exist. And this is what we observe. The theory of evolution uses natural selection to explain how things came into existence stating that you have self producing beings and the fittest of those survive and they leave behind the less fit and so on and so on and hence comes complexity slowly over millions of years.

Well the amazing discovery of Stephen Hawking is that the laws of nature did not evolve by natural selection they popped into existence instantly after the big bang.
A number of 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the big bang which is called Planks Wall meaning earlier beyond that point scientific equations cannot go!! And soon thereafter a split second thereafter all of the laws of nature popped into existence perfectly fine tuned to support the existence of life. The amazing thing about this is that if any one of these laws would have been different lets say gravity we would not be able to exist.

Know after all of this to say that there is no evidence for a creator it is very ridiculous to say after knowing this. Science looks at things as axiomatic and they begin with those natural laws saying that the atoms and molecules build themselves on their own according to the laws of nature. Of course it is easy to begin with those laws but it begs the question...Where did those laws come from? I f you want to see Allah then jus carefully and unbiasedly examine this and you'll see that Allah exist.

Of course, if you read the passage about 'we are expanding' in context, it is not talking about hte universe at all, but rather Islam in that time frame.I call that technique as 'theology by sound bits'.. and is self deception.

[Rathpig]

I really don't know why I am bothering with this reply, but I will make a civil attempt on a few points that were not covered in the post by goat. My only suggestion would be to actually attend a science program and try and move beyond dogmatic superstition. If that is not possible then it is beyond my capabilities to enlighten you.

... the idea of natural selection is very illogical should never have been considered as scientific.

Natural selection is infinitely demonstrable. Any farmer can tell you that natural selection is often the most useful aspect of saving seed. Your statement is proven false by simply laymen's common knowledge.

... that space, time and matter all began at the big bang and there was nothing before it.

For this specific universe. Nothing limits the numbers of existing universes. Our perceptive ability is much more limited than our predictive ability. Science depends on both.

...Planks Wall ...

Again, this is merely a limitation of current perceptive theory. You should really study this a bit deeper and outside of Islamic apologia. Astrophysics and quantum mechanics is not as simplistic as you seem to think. It is definitely not so simplistic that a primitive iron-age superstition trumps science.

...Know after all of this to say that there is no evidence for a creator it is very ridiculous to say after knowing this.

"Evidence" requires just that: "evidence". Show me evidence.

I asked you to show me "Allah" and you made a philosophical hedge which basically claims "Allah" cannot exist. If something is "outside" time, matter, and space then it is non-existent by definition. You have merely conceived a complex theory which shows "Allah" to be non-existent.

Congratulations. You disproved Allah.

[hado]

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua? in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua?, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God?s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don?t let the title fool you ? he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre?history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally?accepted views on Islamic ?history?):

While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.

I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well?written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie?s The Satanic Verses:

Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped? The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ?blasphemy? ? surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).

dear I don`t know where the location you grow up in but I believe that you are wrong
your signture is in Arabic so probably you will understand this (pls none Arab try to look up CH:VR in translation you have)

{ق�ل لاَّ أَق�ول� لَك�مْ ع�ند�ي خَزَآئ�ن� اللّه� وَلا أَعْلَم� الْغَيْبَ وَلا أَق�ول� لَك�مْ إ�نّ�ي مَلَكٌ إ�نْ أَتَّب�ع� إ�لاَّ مَا ي�وحَى إ�لَيَّ ق�لْ هَلْ يَسْتَو�ي الأَعْمَى وَالْبَص�ير� أَ�َلاَ تَتَ�َكَّر�ونَ }الأنعام50
Ch Anaam verse 50
{ق�لْ إ�نَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مّ�ثْل�ك�مْ ي�وحَى إ�لَيَّ أَنَّمَا إ�لَه�ك�مْ إ�لَهٌ وَاح�دٌ �َمَن كَانَ يَرْج�و ل�قَاء رَبّ�ه� �َلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلاً صَال�حاً وَلَا ي�شْر�كْ ب�ع�بَادَة� رَبّ�ه� أَحَداً }الكه�110
Ch Kahef verse 110
{ق�لْ مَا ك�نت� ب�دْعاً مّ�نْ الرّ�س�ل� وَمَا أَدْر�ي مَا ي��ْعَل� ب�ي وَلَا ب�ك�مْ إ�نْ أَتَّب�ع� إ�لَّا مَا ي�وحَى إ�لَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا إ�لَّا نَذ�يرٌ مّ�ب�ينٌ }الأحقا�9
Ch ahkaaf verse 9

and all this verse says that prophet Mohammed is just human being like you and me and if you really find some Muslims worship him and consider Him as angel or something like that so it`s their problem and Islam don`t consider them Muslims

with best regards..