Islam and its apostates: kill all, or kill only some?

[EduChris]

Some questions for Muslims:

What does the Qur'an teach about killing those who convert from Islam to another faith?

What do the Islamic haddiths depict Mohammad as teaching about the execution of those who convert from Islam to another faith?

What does Islamic Sharia law say about killing those who convert from Islam to another faith?

How does all of this relate to the Qur'anic insistance that there should be "no compulsion" in religion?

[Wood-Man]

So, the only differences you've listed between "party A" (the wife) and "party B" (the husband) is that "party A" is more sensitive, less prone to using physical force, and less muscularly endowed than "party B". These are the only differences you've listed. You have said these differences are sufficient to justify "party B" using physical force against "party A" for purposes of "discipline." What underlying principle would link these three attributes to the acceptability of using bodily force? From your posts, it appears to me that the link is simply that it says so in the Quoran. Other than that, the only non-scriptural rationale I can think of for such a linkage would be if one values very highly the attributes of physical strength, insensitivity and a propensity to violence.

In fact, as one looks back in human history, there are a number of examples of societies that did indeed value these attributes highly. For example, within the military of the Roman Empire, legionnaires with these attributes would have been highly prized and awarded with authority. They were allowed to apply physical force as discipline to less well-endowed legionnaires. I'm sure there are many other similar examples going all the way back to before Atilla the Hun.

You'll notice I have not tried to claim you are "wrong" in your values. I'm sure others will say that. I can only say they differ from mine.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Concerning Muhammad hitting Aisha, Muhammad did not hit her with intent to use pain to correct Aisha's behavior, as you desperately try to suggest. For had you read all hadiths, you would have known that the strike in which Muhammad used was used on others as well which was a miraculous healing affect to remove doubt. It was not a srike in which an abusive husband uses. When Muhammad used the healing affect on Aisha, it happened to cause her pain.

He hit her because she followed him while he tried sneaking off in the night, (possibly to one of his other wives’ house, despite what he claims!)

Sahih Muslim:

Book 4, Hadith 2127:

“It was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed.�

Read it all. Read it in the context. There’s nothing there about this so–called ‘healing touch’. Quite simply he hit her in anger because she followed him as he snuck off after he thought she had fallen asleep.

[Wood-Man]

It is not abuse if one feels pain while being healed. If that was the case, all doctors should be considered abusive.

If the patient says "no, don't do that" the doctor must stop. Doctors never use pain as punishment or to alter behavior (at least, not without breaching medical ethics).

[Fatihah]

So, the only differences you've listed between "party A" (the wife) and "party B" (the husband) is that "party A" is more sensitive, less prone to using physical force, and less muscularly endowed than "party B". These are the only differences you've listed. You have said these differences are sufficient to justify "party B" using physical force against "party A" for purposes of "discipline." What underlying principle would link these three attributes to the acceptability of using bodily force? From your posts, it appears to me that the link is simply that it says so in the Quoran. Other than that, the only non-scriptural rationale I can think of for such a linkage would be if one values very highly the attributes of physical strength, insensitivity and a propensity to violence.

In fact, as one looks back in human history, there are a number of examples of societies that did indeed value these attributes highly. For example, within the military of the Roman Empire, legionnaires with these attributes would have been highly prized and awarded with authority. They were allowed to apply physical force as discipline to less well-endowed legionnaires. I'm sure there are many other similar examples going all the way back to before Atilla the Hun.

You'll notice I have not tried to claim you are "wrong" in your values. I'm sure others will say that. I can only say they differ from mine.

Response: I never stated that the three are reasons to use bodily force, but reasons why wife is not prescribed to use bodily force against their husband.

I have also noticed that you simply state that we differ rather than I'm wrong. Perhaps this is due to you being the first to actually want to learn from the other's perspective like myself before making such judgments.

[Wood-Man]

Response: I never stated that the three are reasons to use bodily force, but reasons why wife is not prescribed to use bodily force against their husband.

I have also noticed that you simply state that we differ rather than I'm wrong. Perhaps this is due to you being the first to actually want to learn from the other's perspective like myself before making such judgments.

Actually, it is because philosophically, I am an Existentialist and a Moral Subjectivist.

The logical connection between these three attributes and the proscription of the wife using bodily force against the husband also eludes me. Certainly, I can see why the wife might be disinclined to do so, but why it would be morally wrong for her to do so escapes me, if that conclusion is based only on these three attributes. There are cases where a wife could successfully use force, as with a chronically ill husband, as we've mentioned.

If these three attributes don't make it OK for the husband to use bodily force against the wife, then what does? Is it simply that this is what the Quoran says, end of story?

[Fatihah]

It is not abuse if one feels pain while being healed. If that was the case, all doctors should be considered abusive.

If the patient says "no, don't do that" the doctor must stop. Doctors never use pain as punishment or to alter behavior (at least, not without breaching medical ethics).

Response: I never stated that doctors use pain as a punishment, so your claim has no relevance.

[LiamOS]

If doctors aren't using pain as a punishment, then your analogy doesn't work to begin with, which is what Wood-Man was pointing out.

[Wood-Man]

It is not abuse if one feels pain while being healed. If that was the case, all doctors should be considered abusive.

If the patient says "no, don't do that" the doctor must stop. Doctors never use pain as punishment or to alter behavior (at least, not without breaching medical ethics).

Response: I never stated that doctors use pain as a punishment, so your claim has no relevance.

It is relevant, in that your statement above drew a comparison between (1) a husband using pain itself to achieve a result and (2) a doctor causing pain as an unavoidable side effect of a therapeutic procedure. My response was to illustrate that your comparison was not applicable because the two situations are fundamentally different.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I notice how Fatihah has completely ignored my direct quote of the hadith in which Muhammad causes his wife pain by hitting her.

[LiamOS]

You'd do well to notice that he's not with us, anymore.