The Evidence

[Joshua Patrick]

Islam claims both Jewish and Christian scripture, were both revelations from God, but these holy scriptures became corrupt.

Questions:

1. What proof do you have except the Qu'ran.
2. What time period, did it become corrupt?

What I'm getting at is the message of Christianity, must of become corrupt by the Apostles right at the beginning of Christianity, since the Apostle preached Christ was the Son of God.

But why did these Apostle's suffer so much hardship and died for what they believed in, they even claimed Jesus rose from the dead, and died for what they believed in and we aint talking about 1 person here who corrupted things, but ALOT of people. If Christianity became corrupt, it must of been right from the beginning, and I mean literally from the beginning.

For example, St.Peter was crucified on the Vatican Hill upside down because he declared himself unworthy to die in the same manner as the Lord. He was then buried on Vatican Hill, and excavations under St. Peter’s Basilica have unearthed his tomb.

Why would St.Peter want to die, for a lie?

[Druijf]

I am referring to the doctrine of Ijma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijma

[Murad]

Thanks for the clarification; back to your original post:

Murad, if I am not mistaken there is an Islamic doctrine that Allah will not allow his community to agree on error. Isn't this a bit inconsistent with the Islamic notion of the corruption of the message of Moses and Jesus?

It comes down to Ijtihad(interpretation)
Some muslims choose to interpret verses differently; such as:

So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).� [al-Maa’idah 5:13]

There are numerous ways to perceieve/look at this verse; and the only thing Scholars can do is give their opinions(fatwas).

Im not too knowledgable regarding Sharia Law & Islamic Jurisprudence; thus i cant give you a detailed & direct answer dwelling into the numerous aspects of Islamic consensus.

[Druijf]

Thank you for your answer. I realise I should aquire more knowledge of your religious tradition, because, as you might know, the debate about Islam is very tense in the Netherlands right now.

I have another question. How do you think Muslims should relate to the holy books of Christianity and Judaism? Is the Bible, in your view, so corrupted that Muslims can't do anything useful with for their own religious instruction? Or can Muslims, by their knowledge of the Qu'ran, filter, so to speak, the corrupted message and recover the original intent of Jesus and Moses?

[Murad]

I have another question. How do you think Muslims should relate to the holy books of Christianity and Judaism?

Well obviously respect it; (unlike those christians that supported Quran burning)
Ultimately; whether they are sincere in their belief is what matters:

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (Quran -2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

Is the Bible, in your view, so corrupted that Muslims can't do anything useful with for their own religious instruction?

They are books that contain Good morals & teachings; although strictly regarding religious theology; they are not seen very 'useful' as we see the Quran as the perfect & final revelation.

Or can Muslims, by their knowledge of the Qu'ran, filter, so to speak, the corrupted message and recover the original intent of Jesus and Moses?

Yes; but theres not point in cherry picking is there?
Here is one of my threads discussing the bible in Islam:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=15108