New heart, new spirit

[cholland]

Again, I don't know if this belongs to the Theology forum, but the "purpose" of the forum states Christian theology and this is another question for Jews.

How is Ez. 18:31 and Ez. 36:26 reconciled?

18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

36:26 - And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Is it possible for the Jew to "make a new heart and new spirit" or must God do it? I think 36:26 is a proof text for Calvinists and 18:31 is a proof text for Arminians.

[cnorman18]

Again, I don't know if this belongs to the Theology forum, but the "purpose" of the forum states Christian theology and this is another question for Jews.

How is Ez. 18:31 and Ez. 36:26 reconciled?

18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

36:26 - And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Is it possible for the Jew to "make a new heart and new spirit" or must God do it? I think 36:26 is a proof text for Calvinists and 18:31 is a proof text for Arminians.

Those are both Christian approaches. For Jews, it's not even a pertinent question. There is nothing to reconcile.

Our approach has always been that WE have to do ALL the work, and when we do, God is working in and through us. In Jewish belief, all responsibility for moral action and choice is the responsibility of the individual human -- and of the community, an aspect that is often neglected in Christian thought. In fact, that's explicit; the "omnipotence" of God, if that quality can even be attributed to God, stops where the choices of humans begin. God controls everything but human thought and action. He may appear to have chosen otherwise in certain Bible stories, but those stories are not about us.

We don't get to either credit or blame God for anything, especially things that happen inside ourselves. We're on our own. No expecting or demanding miracles is allowed, not ever. We pray for them, and accept them when or if they happen -- but that's up to God, not us. We pray for healing, for instance -- but we expect you to go to the doctor, too. We pray, "Give us a new heart and a new spirit," but we expect to have to work for that renewal ourselves. It won't just be given, not even to an individual; and for it to happen in a community, all have to work to make it happen.

In the same way: The hungry won't get fed because we ask God to feed them, however sincerely or fervently we ask. We have to do it. "God's hand" is at the end of your own arm. He has no other.

[cholland]

Again, I don't know if this belongs to the Theology forum, but the "purpose" of the forum states Christian theology and this is another question for Jews.

How is Ez. 18:31 and Ez. 36:26 reconciled?

18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

36:26 - And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Is it possible for the Jew to "make a new heart and new spirit" or must God do it? I think 36:26 is a proof text for Calvinists and 18:31 is a proof text for Arminians.

Those are both Christian approaches. For Jews, it's not even a pertinent question. There is nothing to reconcile.

Our approach has always been that WE have to do ALL the work, and when we do, God is working in and through us. In Jewish belief, all responsibility for moral action and choice is the responsibility of the individual human -- and of the community, an aspect that is often neglected in Christian thought. In fact, that's explicit; the "omnipotence" of God, if that quality can even be attributed to God, stops where the choices of humans begin. God controls everything but human thought and action. He may appear to have chosen otherwise in certain Bible stories, but those stories are not about us.

We don't get to either credit or blame God for anything, especially things that happen inside ourselves. We're on our own. No expecting or demanding miracles is allowed, not ever. We pray for them, and accept them when or if they happen -- but that's up to God, not us. We pray for healing, for instance -- but we expect you to go to the doctor, too. We pray, "Give us a new heart and a new spirit," but we expect to have to work for that renewal ourselves. It won't just be given, not even to an individual; and for it to happen in a community, all have to work to make it happen.

In the same way: The hungry won't get fed because we ask God to feed them, however sincerely or fervently we ask. We have to do it. "God's hand" is at the end of your own arm. He has no other.

Thank you for your thoughts as always. Do you have any literature that best represents this idea? Preferably online and relatively short (not a whole book)?

Also would you say this concept is held by all or most Jews?

[cnorman18]

Again, I don't know if this belongs to the Theology forum, but the "purpose" of the forum states Christian theology and this is another question for Jews.

How is Ez. 18:31 and Ez. 36:26 reconciled?

18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

36:26 - And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Is it possible for the Jew to "make a new heart and new spirit" or must God do it? I think 36:26 is a proof text for Calvinists and 18:31 is a proof text for Arminians.

Those are both Christian approaches. For Jews, it's not even a pertinent question. There is nothing to reconcile.

Our approach has always been that WE have to do ALL the work, and when we do, God is working in and through us. In Jewish belief, all responsibility for moral action and choice is the responsibility of the individual human -- and of the community, an aspect that is often neglected in Christian thought. In fact, that's explicit; the "omnipotence" of God, if that quality can even be attributed to God, stops where the choices of humans begin. God controls everything but human thought and action. He may appear to have chosen otherwise in certain Bible stories, but those stories are not about us.

We don't get to either credit or blame God for anything, especially things that happen inside ourselves. We're on our own. No expecting or demanding miracles is allowed, not ever. We pray for them, and accept them when or if they happen -- but that's up to God, not us. We pray for healing, for instance -- but we expect you to go to the doctor, too. We pray, "Give us a new heart and a new spirit," but we expect to have to work for that renewal ourselves. It won't just be given, not even to an individual; and for it to happen in a community, all have to work to make it happen.

In the same way: The hungry won't get fed because we ask God to feed them, however sincerely or fervently we ask. We have to do it. "God's hand" is at the end of your own arm. He has no other.

Thank you for your thoughts as always. Do you have any literature that best represents this idea? Preferably online and relatively short (not a whole book)?

Also would you say this concept is held by all or most Jews?

Best source for information about Jews and Judaism generally is the Jewish Virtual Library. It's very balanced and easy to use. About Judaism is good, too, and so is Judaism 101, though it is written primarily from an Orthodox perspective and won't have much that corresponds to my own more liberal beliefs. ReligionFacts is also excellent. There are others, but beware; some are more reliable than others. Wikipedia is, enh, okay, but it's very easy to mess with and should be taken with a grain or five of salt.

I would say that the idea of human moral responsibility is universal in Judaism. There just isn't a lot of expectation for God to intervene directly among Jews. Some of that attitude may come from the Holocaust; it's pretty hard for Jews to talk about "God's protection" and the like after that. The consensus on the meaning of those events is still forming, and is a topic for debate today and for generations to come; it's very recent in our history, relatively speaking. It may take centuries before it takes its final place in Jewish teachings.

Some old-school Orthodox, particularly Sefardi Jews in Israel, go in for the supernatural thing, but that's more in the area of what most Westerners would call "superstition" than Christian-fundamentalist style "miracles"; amulets, good-luck charms, and like that. I know of no Jewish faith-healers or wonderworkers, though such things are not unknown.

There isn't a lot of emotional display in Jewish services or traditions, though the Chasids, or Hasids, are a different story in their own way; but that's a subgroup of the Orthodox. Modern Judaism tends to be more intellectual and cognitive, and practical, than emotional. There is emotion associated with the religion, but it has more to do with life events and relationships than something that Jews seek out or foster as an aspect of the religion. Religious ecstasy just isn't there much, is not highly valued, and is suspect when it does occur.

It's also worth noting that there is no such thing as a Jewish monk or nun, and there is very little asceticism in Judaism. We fast occasionally, but that's as far as it goes. Jews don't think that celibacy is a sin, exactly, but we do tend to think that it's sort of dumb. Sex is a gift from God, as is good food, wine, and even material prosperity, and we are expected to appreciate those as the gifts that they are. We expect our rabbis to be married, and we expect marriages to produce children, though there's no stigma on childless couples. Our great rabbis and heroes are scholars and thinkers, not saints.

Politically, most Jews tend to be old-style liberal Democrats, though that is by no means universal and changes from generation to generation and from one area to another. At one time many Jews were associated with the far Left; it is perfectly true that Jews were supportive of the Russian Revolution, and have been associated with socialist movements throughout modern history. That is a more complex phenomenon than it first appears, though, since most of those movements arose in very repressive societies that were not kind to Jews, like Czarist Russia, and Jews were probably more interested in justice and change than in Communism or Socialism per se. Recently, though, the fact that the perfidy and evil of Israel has become a point of unquestionable and inerrant dogma among many on the Left has driven many Jews away from that perspective.

On all this, bear in mind, I speak only from my own point of view, my own reading, and my own experience. I'm sure a person who is a born Jew from a more varied Jewish community, or a more traditional one (think New York City) might have a different take; I have no way of knowing. I have read rather widely, though. I read more than 80 books on Judaism before my conversion, and several hundred since. I am no rabbi, and I'm still learning. Anyone who claims to "understand Judaism" completely is either a fool or a fraud. No rabbi would make such a claim, even a very old and very learned one.

Perhaps I have anticipated your questions. In any case, I hope this has helped.

[Telora]

Again, I don't know if this belongs to the Theology forum, but the "purpose" of the forum states Christian theology and this is another question for Jews.

How is Ez. 18:31 and Ez. 36:26 reconciled?

18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

36:26 - And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Is it possible for the Jew to "make a new heart and new spirit" or must God do it? I think 36:26 is a proof text for Calvinists and 18:31 is a proof text for Arminians.

Those are both Christian approaches. For Jews, it's not even a pertinent question. There is nothing to reconcile.

Our approach has always been that WE have to do ALL the work, and when we do, God is working in and through us. In Jewish belief, all responsibility for moral action and choice is the responsibility of the individual human -- and of the community, an aspect that is often neglected in Christian thought. In fact, that's explicit; the "omnipotence" of God, if that quality can even be attributed to God, stops where the choices of humans begin. God controls everything but human thought and action. He may appear to have chosen otherwise in certain Bible stories, but those stories are not about us.

We don't get to either credit or blame God for anything, especially things that happen inside ourselves. We're on our own. No expecting or demanding miracles is allowed, not ever. We pray for them, and accept them when or if they happen -- but that's up to God, not us. We pray for healing, for instance -- but we expect you to go to the doctor, too. We pray, "Give us a new heart and a new spirit," but we expect to have to work for that renewal ourselves. It won't just be given, not even to an individual; and for it to happen in a community, all have to work to make it happen.

In the same way: The hungry won't get fed because we ask God to feed them, however sincerely or fervently we ask. We have to do it. "God's hand" is at the end of your own arm. He has no other.

this reminds me of the story when someone asked about unanswered prayers Jesus told the story of a widow that kept pounding on a judges door for her property rights, he always said no and the next day she'd knock again on and on...he finally relented and gave her the rights.

that's what i learn from the bible...keep knocking and it will eventually open.

[Burninglight]

Again, I don't know if this belongs to the Theology forum, but the "purpose" of the forum states Christian theology and this is another question for Jews.

How is Ez. 18:31 and Ez. 36:26 reconciled?

18:31 - Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

36:26 - And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Is it possible for the Jew to "make a new heart and new spirit" or must God do it? I think 36:26 is a proof text for Calvinists and 18:31 is a proof text for Arminians.

Those are both Christian approaches. For Jews, it's not even a pertinent question. There is nothing to reconcile.

Our approach has always been that WE have to do ALL the work, and when we do, God is working in and through us. In Jewish belief, all responsibility for moral action and choice is the responsibility of the individual human -- and of the community, an aspect that is often neglected in Christian thought. In fact, that's explicit; the "omnipotence" of God, if that quality can even be attributed to God, stops where the choices of humans begin. God controls everything but human thought and action. He may appear to have chosen otherwise in certain Bible stories, but those stories are not about us.

We don't get to either credit or blame God for anything, especially things that happen inside ourselves. We're on our own. No expecting or demanding miracles is allowed, not ever. We pray for them, and accept them when or if they happen -- but that's up to God, not us. We pray for healing, for instance -- but we expect you to go to the doctor, too. We pray, "Give us a new heart and a new spirit," but we expect to have to work for that renewal ourselves. It won't just be given, not even to an individual; and for it to happen in a community, all have to work to make it happen.

In the same way: The hungry won't get fed because we ask God to feed them, however sincerely or fervently we ask. We have to do it. "God's hand" is at the end of your own arm. He has no other.

this reminds me of the story when someone asked about unanswered prayers Jesus told the story of a widow that kept pounding on a judges door for her property rights, he always said no and the next day she'd knock again on and on...he finally relented and gave her the rights.

that's what i learn from the bible...keep knocking and it will eventually open.

David said create in me a clean heart Oh God and renew a right spirit in me. God answered David's prayer. That tells me there is no hole we can fall into that is deeper than God's love. But we have to ask for God's mercy, forgiveness and clean heart and right spirit to receive it. Jesus said ask and you shall receive seek and you shall find knock and the door will be opened