Does religion ___ have any unforgivable sins?

[davidwr]

Let's develop a list of religions, sects, denominations, and other groups that have "unforgivable sins."

[Edit] Oops, I didn't check that "Non-Christian Religions and Philosophies" is in a debate section. I can't find an appropriate discussion forum for this. Would the first administrator to see this be kind enough to move it to the most-appropriate forum? Thanks.

[Adstar]

Do you get my point? When you assert that the Islamic notion of God is "pathetic" because he can't sexually reproduce a son (the act of begetting), you are turning a blind eye on your short-commings.

What? My short-comings? What has my humanity got to do with Jesus?

Your short comming is your God cannot "Lie", its impossible, something mere humans can do.

Once again what has Gods sinning or otherwise Got to do with me?????? We are not talking about Me we are talking about the God of Abraham.

So why do you expect the Islamic God to have Children?

Why should i care about a god that does not exist? i believe allah is a old idol that was kept in mecca and this idols name was adopted as the name of the non-existent god of islam.

Tell me do you think muhammeds grand father was a pagan or a Christian or a jew?

God did not have to have sexual relations for Adam to come into existence.

And this is exactly what Islam teaches:

The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
[Quran 3:59]

What. And does islam declare that muhammed came into existance the same way? Nope muhammed came into this world just like any other normal man. Yet islam declares muhammed to be the greatest prophet and has the temerity to state that Jesus was the son of Mary. If Jesus was created by God from dust then Mary had nothing to do with it. Right?

So why do i always run into muslims that declare that Jesus was son of Joseph and Mary?

So the Holy Spirit (God) caused/ created Jesus within Mary. Jesus was not Half Holy Sprit half Mary.

No, Jesus was "Fully God" & "Fully Man" according to Christendom, like saying Jesus was "Fully Circle" & "Fully Square". Illogical.

Ok let me state this that i do not conform to some doctrinal statement derived from the catholic church. I have stated before to you that this discussion is between you and me not between you and so denomination.

The doctrine came into being "Fully God" & "Fully Man" as a counter to a false teaching that was going around that Jesus never came in the flesh body but was like a spirit/ ghost and it only appeared to people that Jesus was in flesh. So they proclaimed Jesus to be "Fully Man" Not they made a mistake in saying that because being "fully Man" can be interpreted as saying that Jesus was totally like us in that he would have sin and sexual desires and that He would have faults. This is what you are grabbing onto and running away with it for all it's worth.

Jesus came in the flesh and existed at the start of creation He existed before Moses.

John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.�
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?�
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.�

No you believe in 3 seperate Gods who exist as 1 God; Judaism & Islam believes in absolute monotheism.

I believe in One God manifested in 3 different forms. But being One while existing in the 3 forms.

Can’t figure it out?

Well guess what our puny limited minds cannot figure God out and it is a pompous vanity to say we can or have.

See, you are locked into this belief that Christians believe God had sexual relations with Mary. It is a lie, one so often drilled into muslims from an early age that it becomes fact in their minds no matter what a Christian tells them.

I do not believe God had sexual relations with Mary, thats why your Bible allusively asserts in Luke 1:35. The mere fact that Christianity has multiple doctrines to cover up theological contradictions is proof that its a false religion.

The bible does not assert that God has sexual relations with Mary. But it is something that muslims like you hold onto like a desperate man holding onto a lifeguard to stop himself drown in a stormy ocean.

Of course God does not NEED to do these things. But that fact never excludes the possibility that God may WANT to do these things to achieve something that is a central part of His plan for humanity.

It does not solely have to do with "Needs", God can "Need to Lie" but he still wouldn't be able to according to the Bible, because its impossible for him to lie.
Similarly in Islam, God cannot do anything ungodly.

Well then you have extended God limitations beyond what He is limited to and therefore sought to make a prison for God. God is not bound by mans philosophical prisons. I can imagine Him laughing with contempt as such vanity.

No committing suicide requires one to take their own life. Jesus did not kill Himself. Others wanted to kill him, the Sanhedrin. And they organised His execution. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken and killed. that’s not suicide that i laying down ones life for a cause.

That’s where you don’t seem to understand, according to the doctrine of atonement & blood, Jesus (Logos) became flesh in God's divine plan to redeem mankind of their sins by dying on the cross; meaning it was divinely planned from the beginning it did not happen in random. When you plan your OWN death its called suicide.

No. Your definition of suicide is your definition. God know He would be executed from the foundation of the Word.

Absolutely Illogical.
Its like walking infront of a moving car; if you know about the danger of walking infront of a moving car & yet still do; either you are an idiot or you are comitting suicide.

Your simply going to hold onto your faulty definition of suicide no matter what i reveal to you, aren’t you? I see no point banging my head against your brick wall any more on this point. We shall remain in disagreement.

But again. He did not execute Himself or order others to execute Him. They executed Him by their own free will and the foundational motive was their rejection and hatred for His message.

So if you walked infront of a moving car, would that be considered suicide or an act of idiocy?

LOL Jesus did not walk into the sanhedrin car. The angry men in that car swerved off the road and onto the footpath in order to run Jesus down. Sorry just had to make that observation

Of course they did not defeat Him. As if executing Gods flesh vessel would ever end the existence of God. God allowed them to do their will. A big difference. They believed they where having a victory over Jesus but the exact reverse was happening. A great Victory was had on that day.

How did Jesus have a "great victory"? Last time i checked in the Bible Jesus prayed to God to remove the cup of death & yet he died a miserable death on the cross. Jesus showed no desire of dying, obviously the pharisees were stronger than your God.

Jesus was risen from the dead and His death provided atonement for all whom believe Him. And many of those who took part in His execution ended up becoming followers of Jesus and therefore where Redeemed from the Lake Of Fire. Jesus had an awesome victory over satan. All that satan can do now is run around spreading deception like a jihadist suicide bomber trying to take as many people with him into the lake of fire.

He did express His desire for them to be forgiven.

Why should they be forgiven? If it wasn't for them you would be in hell because nobody would have "redeemed" your sins right? No, i think Christianity asserts the torturers of Jesus were noble men doing God's work, if it wasn't for them you would still be law followers according to Paul.

God can use the evil intentions of those who oppose Him to further His eternal plan. He has often used the rebellion of individuals and peoples to deliver a message. He did so with Pharaoh.

Also it is a teaching of islam that Jesus never suffered any toucher, islam teaches that Jesus never died on the cross. So why are you arguing that someone should not be forgiven when your religion states that they never did the wrong thing in the first place?

And He used the people who conspired to have Him killed. Of course some of them went to their deaths as rejectors of His salvation and they will have eternity in the Lake of Fire. But

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.�
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.�
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I can't disagree with anything here.
1) Jesus was the way, the truth and the life. This applies to every prophet preaching the messege of God.

No Jesus made it clear that He was the ONLY Way..Not one of the Ways.

2) Yes no one went to the Father except through him, the same way nobody went to God except through Moses in his time. It applies to every prophet in their time period.

None of the mere men prophets said this. none claimed this.

And as you can see the bolded, Jesus does not speak on his own authority, it is God(The Father) that decides what Jesus should preach. Can you imagine "God Al-Mighty" taking orders from someone else?

Jesus said in the same scripture that i quoted:

"11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me"

They are both in each other they are equal. They are both One and the same, they are both God.

Once again you trying to put God lieing and God becoming flesh into the same box. They are totally two different issues. One is Moral the other has nothing to do with morality.

Morality is completely irrelevant, morals are absolute to God, he decides what's moral.

Don't twist what i said. I acknowledged Gods Morality. It is you who is trying desperately to chain the Moralty of God, to God existing in a flesh body. Something that has nothing to do with morality.,

If God is restricted to telling the truth because of his Godhood, you can understand why God cannot beget children, because of his Godhood.

Once again Jesus is God. God did not have children. The Son of God is a title. Not a descriptor.

Luke 1
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Once again i do not believe that Jesus was a faulty man like me. He was born without Sin and was perfect in all morals. Even all the organised christian denominations you mentioned don't believe Jesus was a normal man like us.

I agree Jesus was not "Faulty", i do not see any of the Prophets "Faulty".

Well of course you don't, you do not believe the Words of the Torah when God denied Moses entery into the promised land because of His sin.

Moses said:
Deuteronomy 3
23 “Then I pleaded with the LORD at that time, saying: 24 ‘O Lord GOD, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds? 25 I pray, let me cross over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, those pleasant mountains, and Lebanon.’
26 “But the LORD was angry with me on your account, and would not listen to me. So the LORD said to me: ‘Enough of that! Speak no more to Me of this matter. 27 Go up to the top of Pisgah, and lift your eyes toward the west, the north, the south, and the east; behold it with your eyes, for you shall not cross over this Jordan.

How preposterous to think any man is faultless. You try to make men Gods when you say they are not faulty.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Murad]

Do you get my point? When you assert that the Islamic notion of God is "pathetic" because he can't sexually reproduce a son (the act of begetting), you are turning a blind eye on your short-commings.

What? My short-comings? What has my humanity got to do with Jesus?

Your short comming is your God cannot "Lie", its impossible, something mere humans can do.

Once again what has Gods sinning or otherwise Got to do with me?????? We are not talking about Me we are talking about the God of Abraham.

If your God is restricted & not fully omnipotent, arguing against the Islamic God because he cannot beget children is double standards.

So why do you expect the Islamic God to have Children?

Why should i care about a god that does not exist?

You've clearly shown that you've cared to happy forever, did i change your mind

i believe allah is a old idol that was kept in mecca and this idols name was adopted as the name of the non-existent god of islam.

Yes, you will blindly believe anything your preachers teach you. "Allah" is the neutral arabic word for "God", there are 14 million arab Christians who call their God "Allah". Oh wow, are they worshipping idols?

Tell me do you think muhammeds grand father was a pagan or a Christian or a jew?

The whole Quraysh tribe was pagan, it was the prophet who declared absolute monotheism.

God did not have to have sexual relations for Adam to come into existence.

And this is exactly what Islam teaches:

The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
[Quran 3:59]

What. And does islam declare that muhammed came into existance the same way? Nope muhammed came into this world just like any other normal man. Yet islam declares muhammed to be the greatest prophet and has the temerity to state that Jesus was the son of Mary. If Jesus was created by God from dust then Mary had nothing to do with it. Right?

That is a ridiculous argument, the article for faith in Judaism is to accept Moses as the "Supreme Prophet", he was born normally, so what? Verse 59 in chapter 3 simply debunks the Christian ideology that Jesus is God because he had no father, because with that approach, Adam would be a greater God, he had no mother or father.

So the Holy Spirit (God) caused/ created Jesus within Mary. Jesus was not Half Holy Sprit half Mary.

No, Jesus was "Fully God" & "Fully Man" according to Christendom, like saying Jesus was "Fully Circle" & "Fully Square". Illogical.

Ok let me state this that i do not conform to some doctrinal statement derived from the catholic church. I have stated before to you that this discussion is between you and me not between you and so denomination.

The doctrine came into being "Fully God" & "Fully Man" as a counter to a false teaching that was going around that Jesus never came in the flesh body but was like a spirit/ ghost and it only appeared to people that Jesus was in flesh. So they proclaimed Jesus to be "Fully Man" Not they made a mistake in saying that because being "fully Man" can be interpreted as saying that Jesus was totally like us in that he would have sin and sexual desires and that He would have faults. This is what you are grabbing onto and running away with it for all it's worth.

Jesus came in the flesh and existed at the start of creation He existed before Moses.

So which doctrine do you follow, the Hypostatic Union or Kenosis?

John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.�
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?�
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.�

I have addressed this false translation before, i'll quote:

When talking about the "accuracy" of rendering a text into a different language, the majority of the Christian Bibles have theological inputs.
For example, Exodus 3:14 should read:

Hebrew: Ehyeh asher ehyeh

Wrong English Translation: [strike]I Am Who I Am[/strike]

Correct English Translation: I WILL BE Who I WILL BE

Infact "Ehyeh" is used fourty three times in the Hebrew Bible, each time it is either translated into "I will be" or "I shall be", definitely not "I AM"

So the question is, why do Christian Bibles translate Exodus 3:14 into "I Am"? The answer is found in John 8:58 where Jesus in Greek says: "ego eimi" which literally means "I Am", thus Exodus 3:14 is manipulated to compliment the Greek "I AM' used in John 8:58.

No you believe in 3 seperate Gods who exist as 1 God; Judaism & Islam believes in absolute monotheism.

I believe in One God manifested in 3 different forms. But being One while existing in the 3 forms.

Can’t figure it out?

Well guess what our puny limited minds cannot figure God out and it is a pompous vanity to say we can or have.

Its nothing to do with being "puny", you are commanded to:

But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
(1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If you dismiss every contradiction as a "Mystery" and "Humans are too stupid to understand" you are purposely deceiving yourself.

See, you are locked into this belief that Christians believe God had sexual relations with Mary. It is a lie, one so often drilled into muslims from an early age that it becomes fact in their minds no matter what a Christian tells them.

I do not believe God had sexual relations with Mary, thats why your Bible allusively asserts in Luke 1:35. The mere fact that Christianity has multiple doctrines to cover up theological contradictions is proof that its a false religion.

The bible does not assert that God has sexual relations with Mary. But it is something that muslims like you hold onto like a desperate man holding onto a lifeguard to stop himself drown in a stormy ocean.

I have shown you 2 examples which you have not responded to.

Of course God does not NEED to do these things. But that fact never excludes the possibility that God may WANT to do these things to achieve something that is a central part of His plan for humanity.

It does not solely have to do with "Needs", God can "Need to Lie" but he still wouldn't be able to according to the Bible, because its impossible for him to lie.
Similarly in Islam, God cannot do anything ungodly.

Well then you have extended God limitations beyond what He is limited to and therefore sought to make a prison for God. God is not bound by mans philosophical prisons. I can imagine Him laughing with contempt as such vanity.

If you can imagine him going to the toilet, im sure you have no trouble imagining him laughing. I am not the one defining God's attributes in the Bible, nor is any other muslim or atheist, it is your own holy book that makes something an impossibility for God.

No committing suicide requires one to take their own life. Jesus did not kill Himself. Others wanted to kill him, the Sanhedrin. And they organised His execution. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken and killed. that’s not suicide that i laying down ones life for a cause.

That’s where you don’t seem to understand, according to the doctrine of atonement & blood, Jesus (Logos) became flesh in God's divine plan to redeem mankind of their sins by dying on the cross; meaning it was divinely planned from the beginning it did not happen in random. When you plan your OWN death its called suicide.

No. Your definition of suicide is your definition. God know He would be executed from the foundation of the Word.

Absolutely Illogical.
Its like walking infront of a moving car; if you know about the danger of walking infront of a moving car & yet still do; either you are an idiot or you are comitting suicide.

Your simply going to hold onto your faulty definition of suicide no matter what i reveal to you, aren’t you? I see no point banging my head against your brick wall any more on this point. We shall remain in disagreement.

I am not pre-definining "Suicide", it has nothing to do with semantics. If God "Chose" to die for "your" sins, that is suicide, deal with it.

But again. He did not execute Himself or order others to execute Him. They executed Him by their own free will and the foundational motive was their rejection and hatred for His message.

So if you walked infront of a moving car, would that be considered suicide or an act of idiocy?

LOL Jesus did not walk into the sanhedrin car. The angry men in that car swerved off the road and onto the footpath in order to run Jesus down. Sorry just had to make that observation

Yes & Jesus as God, chose to be hit by the Car so that he could forgive your sins, or wait, was your salvation a "Random Event", did God "atone" your sins without planning to do so, was it a big accident?

Anyone who plans his own death is comitting suicide.

Of course they did not defeat Him. As if executing Gods flesh vessel would ever end the existence of God. God allowed them to do their will. A big difference. They believed they where having a victory over Jesus but the exact reverse was happening. A great Victory was had on that day.

How did Jesus have a "great victory"? Last time i checked in the Bible Jesus prayed to God to remove the cup of death & yet he died a miserable death on the cross. Jesus showed no desire of dying, obviously the pharisees were stronger than your God.

Jesus was risen from the dead and His death provided atonement for all whom believe Him. And many of those who took part in His execution ended up becoming followers of Jesus and therefore where Redeemed from the Lake Of Fire. Jesus had an awesome victory over satan. All that satan can do now is run around spreading deception like a jihadist suicide bomber trying to take as many people with him into the lake of fire.

Satan can do alot more than that, spreading false propoganda & dividing God into distinct persons is a start.

Consider this, if you stole from a bakery shop, the owner would lose money/profit. So to atone your sins i paid for the bread you stole with my own money to the baker. Now if you didn't believe that i paid for your stolen items, it wouldn't change the fact that your debt has already been paid. Would the bakery owner have any right to ask you for money? Absolutely not, because i already paid for you. So why on earth are we "required" to believe in the "atonement" if Jesus already died for the sins of everybody, it's absolutely illogical.

He did express His desire for them to be forgiven.

Why should they be forgiven? If it wasn't for them you would be in hell because nobody would have "redeemed" your sins right? No, i think Christianity asserts the torturers of Jesus were noble men doing God's work, if it wasn't for them you would still be law followers according to Paul.

God can use the evil intentions of those who oppose Him to further His eternal plan. He has often used the rebellion of individuals and peoples to deliver a message. He did so with Pharaoh.

What if the men did not torture Jesus, your sins would not be atoned for would they? So you should be worshipping the torturers not Jesus.

Also it is a teaching of islam that Jesus never suffered any toucher, islam teaches that Jesus never died on the cross. So why are you arguing that someone should not be forgiven when your religion states that they never did the wrong thing in the first place?

Absolutely, but we are talking about the Christian belief.

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.�
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.�
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I can't disagree with anything here.
1) Jesus was the way, the truth and the life. This applies to every prophet preaching the messege of God.

No Jesus made it clear that He was the ONLY Way..Not one of the Ways.

Yes he was the ONLY way in his TIME, the disciples of Moses did not require a Messiah to attain salvation (Ask any Jew), by following Moses who was the way to God, thats how they attained/will attain salvation.

2) Yes no one went to the Father except through him, the same way nobody went to God except through Moses in his time. It applies to every prophet in their time period.

None of the mere men prophets said this. none claimed this.

Because its quite obvious, Jesus did not claim many things that Moses claimed, so what?

And as you can see the bolded, Jesus does not speak on his own authority, it is God(The Father) that decides what Jesus should preach. Can you imagine "God Al-Mighty" taking orders from someone else?

Jesus said in the same scripture that i quoted:

"11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me"

They are both in each other they are equal. They are both One and the same, they are both God.

He is talking in parables, it would be idiocy to take it literally as it makes no sense:

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Obviously Jesus was talking figuratively, not literally as you believe.

You cannot be inside & outside of something simultaneously, unless the person is suffering from schizophrenia.

Once again you trying to put God lieing and God becoming flesh into the same box. They are totally two different issues. One is Moral the other has nothing to do with morality.

Morality is completely irrelevant, morals are absolute to God, he decides what's moral.

Don't twist what i said. I acknowledged Gods Morality. It is you who is trying desperately to chain the Moralty of God, to God existing in a flesh body. Something that has nothing to do with morality.,

You are repeating what i said, comming in the flesh & lying, are sinless actions for God because God cannot Sin, thus like i said, its completely irrelevant to morality, makes sense?

Morality is not the issue here, being divinely restricted in power is the issue.

If God is restricted to telling the truth because of his Godhood, you can understand why God cannot beget children, because of his Godhood.

Once again Jesus is God. God did not have children. The Son of God is a title. Not a descriptor.

But the title is taken LITERALLY by Christians.

Once again i do not believe that Jesus was a faulty man like me. He was born without Sin and was perfect in all morals. Even all the organised christian denominations you mentioned don't believe Jesus was a normal man like us.

I agree Jesus was not "Faulty", i do not see any of the Prophets "Faulty".

Well of course you don't, you do not believe the Words of the Torah when God denied Moses entery into the promised land because of His sin.

Moses said:
Deuteronomy 3
23 “Then I pleaded with the LORD at that time, saying: 24 ‘O Lord GOD, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds? 25 I pray, let me cross over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, those pleasant mountains, and Lebanon.’
26 “But the LORD was angry with me on your account, and would not listen to me. So the LORD said to me: ‘Enough of that! Speak no more to Me of this matter. 27 Go up to the top of Pisgah, and lift your eyes toward the west, the north, the south, and the east; behold it with your eyes, for you shall not cross over this Jordan.

How preposterous to think any man is faultless. You try to make men Gods when you say they are not faulty.

The prophets are considered sinless from major sins (unlike Christianity which believes Solomon committed idolatry). You cannot be "Fully Human" & not commit a single sin.

[Adstar]

hello murad

I am placing your words in quotes. I will quote myself also but make it clear that quote is from me. The more we just quote whole posts the harder is it to deal with points, so i am doing it this way.

If your God is restricted & not fully omnipotent, arguing against the Islamic God because he cannot beget children is double standards.

Where did I say God is restricted ( apart from not being able to do one of those stupid examples atheist come up with like the rock that cannot be lifted and then God lifting it? He does not lie not because He cannot lie but because He is perfect and cannot sin. The Word restricted means God is incapable because He cannot do it. God can do it but will not because He is perfect and wills not to do it.

Adstar said:
Why should i care about a god that does not exist?

You've clearly shown that you've cared to happy forever, did i change your mind.

No you don’t. Your shifting my attitude to this non existent god that has been named allah and transferring that onto people who are deceived by that belief.

I detest islam and the deception it represents but I care for all my fellow human beings on earth and desire to see them freed from deception and saved.
I hate islam but I love muslims.
I hate catholicism but I love catholics ,
I hate a lot of what passes as protestantisim but I love protestants.

Why do you think I am here doing these long posts to you and before to happy forever? Because I want to see you saved.

Yes, you will blindly believe anything your preachers teach you. "Allah" is the neutral arabic word for "God", there are 14 million arab Christians who call their God "Allah". Oh wow, are they worshipping idols?

They are making a grave error, probably out of fear of islam, Just because there are 14 million arabs you say are christians does not mean they are Christians. I know that many of them have doctrines that are closely related to the catholic and eastern orthodox church, both of which I consider False.

Adstar said:
Tell me do you think muhammeds grand father was a pagan or a Christian or a jew?

The whole Quraysh tribe was pagan, it was the prophet who declared absolute monotheism.

Yes indeed He was a pagan. And from sources I have read he Abdul Muttalib was more than just your normal pagan but he was a caretaker of the 360 idols that where housed in the Ka.aba.

Now as a good pagan idol worshipper believing in and serving his multiple idol gods he ended up naming some of his sons servent of this idol and servent of that idol. He named one of his sons Abdul Manaf meaning servant of manaf one of the idols he took care of.

Now what was the name mohammeds grand father gave mohammeds father? Muhammed’s fathers name was Abdullah, meaning servant of allah. Ok let it sink into your mind for a bit….

Now mohammeds grand father a dedicated pagan would never have named his son (mohammeds father) servant of the God of Abraham, No way, Never. Servant of a God that condemned idol worshippers who’s followers “Jews� and “Christians� at the time condemned the Quraysh tribe and all paganisim as false. No way would he do that to his son. But he would call him Abdullah (servant of allah) if one of the the idol’s he served in the Ka,aba was called allah.

Adstar said:
What. And does islam declare that muhammed came into existance the same way? Nope muhammed came into this world just like any other normal man. Yet islam declares muhammed to be the greatest prophet and has the temerity to state that Jesus was the son of Mary. If Jesus was created by God from dust then Mary had nothing to do with it. Right?

That is a ridiculous argument, the article for faith in Judaism is to accept Moses as the "Supreme Prophet", he was born normally, so what? Verse 59 in chapter 3 simply debunks the Christian ideology that Jesus is God because he had no father, because with that approach, Adam would be a greater God, he had no mother or father.

So when muslims say that Jesus is the son of Mary and Joseph they are using a lie to try and debunk Christians when they actually believe that Jesus was created by God himself from dust?

Of course just a statement cannot debunk anything.

And Jesus had no genetic mother either. I believe Jesus came by the power of the Holy Spirit. Mary was like a modern surrogate woman who is implanted with the fertilized egg of another couple. Jesus was not half God half Mary. Jesus was 100% God manifested in the flesh.

As for Adam no one is claiming he is a God. He was created Good however. But later became contaminated with the knowledge of good and evil.

Consider this, if you stole from a bakery shop, the owner would lose money/profit. So to atone your sins i paid for the bread you stole with my own money to the baker. Now if you didn't believe that i paid for your stolen items, it wouldn't change the fact that your debt has already been paid. Would the bakery owner have any right to ask you for money? Absolutely not, because i already paid for you. So why on earth are we "required" to believe in the "atonement" if Jesus already died for the sins of everybody, it's absolutely illogical.

I don’t say Jesus died for the sins of everybody. Maybe you have heard that from someone else or read it somewhere but remember this is a discussion between You and Me.

Jesus died for the sins of those whom will believe Him and trust in His Atonement for their sins. All those who disbelieve Jesus and reject His atonement will not have their sins atoned for. All who reject the atonement of the Messiah Jesus will be judged for their sins and they will be condemned to eternity if the Lake of Fire.

What if the men did not torture Jesus, your sins would not be atoned for would they? So you should be worshipping the torturers not Jesus.

No. What they did was a terrible act. They committed a great sin. So no I do not praise them and I would never worship any man. But God used their rebellion and evil to bring about the defeat of rebellion and evil for those who believe in His will.

Yes he was the ONLY way in his TIME, the disciples of Moses did not require a Messiah to attain salvation (Ask any Jew), by following Moses who was the way to God, thats how they attained/will attain salvation.

No they won’t. The law given through Moses was to convict mankind of sin. The Law reveals that No Man can do the Law. All men fall short in doing the Law. The Law carries a Curse and that Curse is the penalty of the Law and that Penalty is Death.

Deuteronomy 27
26‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’�

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.�

Show me a person who follows the Law and claims they have not broken any of them in their life time and you will be showing me either a self deceived person or a liar.

Because you only need to break one of the Laws and it is the same as breaking all the law. So no, the Jews will not be attain salvation by following the Law given to them by Moses. Like the rest of humanity they will only be saved by having their transgressions atoned for. And the only Way on can have their sins Atoned for is by Believing the Messiah Jesus made atonement for ones sins.

Adstar said:
Jesus said in the same scripture that i quoted: "11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me" They are both in each other they are equal. They are both One and the same, they are both God.

He is talking in parables, it would be idiocy to take it literally as it makes no sense:
Obviously Jesus was talking figuratively, not literally as you believe.
You cannot be inside & outside of something simultaneously, unless the person is suffering from schizophrenia.

Jesus was not talking in a parable when he was saying this verse. He was talking to them in pain speech. And again your basis for rejecting this is your inability to comprehend it in your mind. Once again you’re a limited human being. Stop thinking you can understand everything. You cannot. Especially about the Nature of God.

Adstar said:
Don't twist what i said. I acknowledged Gods Morality. It is you who is trying desperately to chain the Moralty of God, to God existing in a flesh body. Something that has nothing to do with morality.,

You are repeating what i said, comming in the flesh & lying, are sinless actions for God because God cannot Sin, thus like i said, its completely irrelevant to morality, makes sense?

No. You make no sense. Lying is sin. Period. God does not Lie.

The prophets are considered sinless from major sins (unlike Christianity which believes Solomon committed idolatry). You cannot be "Fully Human" & not commit a single sin.

That’s right all men Sin. God is perfect. Without Sin. So no type of sin is acceptable to Him, No matter if you call it major or minor. But Jesus was not fully human in the sense of moral make up.

And it was not only Solomon who allowed idol worship in israel.
Moses was a murderer who killed an Egyptian guard and later was denied entry into the promised land because of his sins.
David was an adulterer and a murderer.
And Jonah did his best to resist God in being a prophet. So yes the bible is full of sinners and it is a form of idol worship to worship another man as being sinless.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Murad]

If your God is restricted & not fully omnipotent, arguing against the Islamic God because he cannot beget children is double standards.

Where did I say God is restricted ( apart from not being able to do one of those stupid examples atheist come up with like the rock that cannot be lifted and then God lifting it? He does not lie not because He cannot lie but because He is perfect and cannot sin. The Word restricted means God is incapable because He cannot do it. God can do it but will not because He is perfect and wills not to do it.

No, the connotations & denotations behind "Impossible" are self explanatory:

God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
(Hebrews 6:18)

You are playing nothing but denial, it has nothing to do with "Sin", God destroyed numerous towns in the Old Testament & ordered the deaths of suckling babies, the concept of "Sin" is a red herring. God cannot lie, it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to do so, thus you are applying double standards towards Islam.

Adstar said:
Why should i care about a god that does not exist?

You've clearly shown that you've cared to happy forever, did i change your mind.

No you don’t. Your shifting my attitude to this non existent god that has been named allah and transferring that onto people who are deceived by that belief.

I detest islam and the deception it represents but I care for all my fellow human beings on earth and desire to see them freed from deception and saved.
I hate islam but I love muslims.
I hate catholicism but I love catholics ,
I hate a lot of what passes as protestantisim but I love protestants.

Why do you think I am here doing these long posts to you and before to happy forever? Because I want to see you saved.

Similarly, i don't hate Christians, but unlike you i don't hate the religion, which is Christianity, i feel sorry for Christianity; it's been concocted by Paul. & billions of people actually believe in the idea of a "Crucified God" & the concept of substitutionary atonement.

Yes, you will blindly believe anything your preachers teach you. "Allah" is the neutral arabic word for "God", there are 14 million arab Christians who call their God "Allah". Oh wow, are they worshipping idols?

They are making a grave error, probably out of fear of islam

A very idiotic statement, if the muslims wanted, there would not be a single Christian in the arab countries, it has nothing to do with 'fear'. Until you get over your pre-conceived brainwashing that you've probably read at answering-islam.org you will never understand that the word "Allah" means "God", plainly & not a specific God, it is the singular arab word for the hebrew "Elohim".

, Just because there are 14 million arabs you say are christians does not mean they are Christians. I know that many of them have doctrines that are closely related to the catholic and eastern orthodox church, both of which I consider False.

No true Scotsman fallacy.
That is your opinion, if they claim to be a Christian, they are Christians. You have no authority to present your mere subjective opinions as objective facts.

Adstar said:
Tell me do you think muhammeds grand father was a pagan or a Christian or a jew?

The whole Quraysh tribe was pagan, it was the prophet who declared absolute monotheism.

Yes indeed He was a pagan. And from sources I have read he Abdul Muttalib was more than just your normal pagan but he was a caretaker of the 360 idols that where housed in the Ka.aba.

Which were all destroyed by Muhammad(pbuh).

Now as a good pagan idol worshipper believing in and serving his multiple idol gods he ended up naming some of his sons servent of this idol and servent of that idol. He named one of his sons Abdul Manaf meaning servant of manaf one of the idols he took care of.

And this relates to Islam because?

Now what was the name mohammeds grand father gave mohammeds father? Muhammed’s fathers name was Abdullah, meaning servant of allah. Ok let it sink into your mind for a bit….

You have obviously been brainwashed, maybe beyond repair. I've told you the arabic word "Allah" means "GOD" and nothing else. It can refer to Zeus, Hercules, Yahweh ... ANY GOD. Thats why 14 million arab Christians call their God "Allah" because "Allah" is just the arabic word for God. Makes sense or should i paraphrase it again & use simpler words?

Now mohammeds grand father a dedicated pagan would never have named his son (mohammeds father) servant of the God of Abraham, No way, Never.

Obviously, you are making abusrd statements, why on earth would a pagan preach monotheism? "Servant of God" means ANY GOD, it literally means someone who works for a divine power. It is not restricted to any form of God.

Servant of a God that condemned idol worshippers who’s followers “Jews� and “Christians� at the time condemned the Quraysh tribe and all paganisim as false. No way would he do that to his son. But he would call him Abdullah (servant of allah) if one of the the idol’s he served in the Ka,aba was called allah.

Present evidence that there was an idol God named "Allah", not just a deity that was given the title of Godhood, but a God that by name was called "Allah".

Adstar said:
What. And does islam declare that muhammed came into existance the same way? Nope muhammed came into this world just like any other normal man. Yet islam declares muhammed to be the greatest prophet and has the temerity to state that Jesus was the son of Mary. If Jesus was created by God from dust then Mary had nothing to do with it. Right?

That is a ridiculous argument, the article for faith in Judaism is to accept Moses as the "Supreme Prophet", he was born normally, so what? Verse 59 in chapter 3 simply debunks the Christian ideology that Jesus is God because he had no father, because with that approach, Adam would be a greater God, he had no mother or father.

So when muslims say that Jesus is the son of Mary and Joseph they are using a lie to try and debunk Christians when they actually believe that Jesus was created by God himself from dust?

Of course just a statement cannot debunk anything.

It is a metaphorical statement, obviously Jesus was not created by dust, the verse debunks the Christians who equate Jesus with God by telling them Adam had no Mother or Father, why dont Christians worship him?

And Jesus had no genetic mother either. I believe Jesus came by the power of the Holy Spirit. Mary was like a modern surrogate woman who is implanted with the fertilized egg of another couple. Jesus was not half God half Mary. Jesus was 100% God manifested in the flesh.

You can believe in whatever you want, mainstream Christins disagree with you.

As for Adam no one is claiming he is a God. He was created Good however. But later became contaminated with the knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus knew the difference between Good & Evil, was he too contaminated?

Consider this, if you stole from a bakery shop, the owner would lose money/profit. So to atone your sins i paid for the bread you stole with my own money to the baker. Now if you didn't believe that i paid for your stolen items, it wouldn't change the fact that your debt has already been paid. Would the bakery owner have any right to ask you for money? Absolutely not, because i already paid for you. So why on earth are we "required" to believe in the "atonement" if Jesus already died for the sins of everybody, it's absolutely illogical.

I don’t say Jesus died for the sins of everybody. Maybe you have heard that from someone else or read it somewhere but remember this is a discussion between You and Me.

Jesus died for the sins of those whom will believe Him and trust in His Atonement for their sins.

That is illogical as i have just shown with the analogy, if the price of sin was paid, it was paid either way, it renders the concept of faith utterly useless. Its like saying i will pay for your hamburger only if you believe i paid for it; if it was paid for already there is no point of believing.

See this post which debunks the doctrine of substitionary atonement:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=17026

All those who disbelieve Jesus and reject His atonement will not have their sins atoned for. All who reject the atonement of the Messiah Jesus will be judged for their sins and they will be condemned to eternity if the Lake of Fire.

In your fantasy world.

What if the men did not torture Jesus, your sins would not be atoned for would they? So you should be worshipping the torturers not Jesus.

No. What they did was a terrible act. They committed a great sin. So no I do not praise them and I would never worship any man.

That is a contradictory, you worship Jesus who was a man:

“The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.�
(Mark 11:12-13).

Does your God know the difference between Summer & Winter?

Yes he was the ONLY way in his TIME, the disciples of Moses did not require a Messiah to attain salvation (Ask any Jew), by following Moses who was the way to God, thats how they attained/will attain salvation.

No they won’t. The law given through Moses was to convict mankind of sin. The Law reveals that No Man can do the Law. All men fall short in doing the Law. The Law carries a Curse and that Curse is the penalty of the Law and that Penalty is Death.

No, the Law makes it clear:

[center]
"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
(Ezekiel 18:30)


“Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.
(Ezekiel 18:5-9)[/center]

Deuteronomy 27
26‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’�

God knows we are human. To break the Law is human; to reject or to not confirm is insurrection. That's when the curse is applied.

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.�

Show me a person who follows the Law and claims they have not broken any of them in their life time and you will be showing me either a self deceived person or a liar.

You have been deceived by Paul, the original Hebrew of Deuteronomy 27:26 reads:

The REAL & HONEST translation is:

Accursed is one who will not uphold the words of this Torah, to perform them. And the entire people shall say, Amen.
(Deuteronomy 27:26)

Please, show me where i can find the phrase: "ALL the words of this law" in the Hebrew text of Deuteronomy 27:26, please show me, you have been deceived by Paul, simple.

Because you only need to break one of the Laws and it is the same as breaking all the law. So no, the Jews will not be attain salvation by following the Law given to them by Moses.

Yes they will, it is you that will not attain salvation, God is not a party pooper, God did not purposely deceive the Jews, sorry he is not rogue. By observing the Law with full intentions, the person will gain salvation. Basic Judaism 101. No "Crucified God" needed.

Like the rest of humanity they will only be saved by having their transgressions atoned for. And the only Way on can have their sins Atoned for is by Believing the Messiah Jesus made atonement for ones sins.

In Christianity & your fantasy world.

Sorry, if God is "Just", he will not throw everyone into hell for not believing in an illogical "Crucified God", i think you should try to "save" more gullible people.

Adstar said:
Jesus said in the same scripture that i quoted: "11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me" They are both in each other they are equal. They are both One and the same, they are both God.

He is talking in parables, it would be idiocy to take it literally as it makes no sense:
Obviously Jesus was talking figuratively, not literally as you believe.
You cannot be inside & outside of something simultaneously, unless the person is suffering from schizophrenia.

Jesus was not talking in a parable when he was saying this verse. He was talking to them in pain speech. And again your basis for rejecting this is your inability to comprehend it in your mind. Once again you’re a limited human being. Stop thinking you can understand everything. You cannot. Especially about the Nature of God.

And it's settled, it makes no sense & you have to be gullible & blind to believe that something can be inside & outside of something else simultaneously, sorry i do not believe in 4 sided triangles or square-circles, you can feel free to.

Adstar said:
Don't twist what i said. I acknowledged Gods Morality. It is you who is trying desperately to chain the Moralty of God, to God existing in a flesh body. Something that has nothing to do with morality.,

You are repeating what i said, comming in the flesh & lying, are sinless actions for God because God cannot Sin, thus like i said, its completely irrelevant to morality, makes sense?

No. You make no sense. Lying is sin. Period. God does not Lie.

Killing is also a Sin, but it is not a Sin when God commands the Israelites to kill innocent Babies:

(1 Samuel 15:2-3)
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING, ox and sheep, camel and ass.



(2 Chronicles 15:13)
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.



(Ezekiel 23:45-47)
And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

What happened to God not being able to Sin? Wait, does God get a "Free-Pass" when it comes to innocent babies & infants??

The prophets are considered sinless from major sins (unlike Christianity which believes Solomon committed idolatry). You cannot be "Fully Human" & not commit a single sin.

That’s right all men Sin. God is perfect. Without Sin. So no type of sin is acceptable to Him, No matter if you call it major or minor. But Jesus was not fully human in the sense of moral make up.

Thats what your doctrines say, Jesus was definetely Fully Human.

And it was not only Solomon who allowed idol worship in israel.
Moses was a murderer who killed an Egyptian guard and later was denied entry into the promised land because of his sins.
David was an adulterer and a murderer.

Absurd, none of the Prophets of God commit major Sins, can you imagine receiving direct "Divine Revelation" & despite this you go ahead & have sex with different women & worship pagan Gods? Absolutely ridiculous. This is what the Bible says, the Quran portrays the Prophets as righteous men & refutes the biblical lies attributed to them.

And Jonah did his best to resist God in being a prophet.

Yes Jonah repented and was saved.

So yes the bible is full of sinners and it is a form of idol worship to worship another man as being sinless.

Then stop worshipping Jesus & worship the God of Israel alone. He is not "Fully Man" or "Part Man" or any other recipe mixture.

[Adstar]

I Think i have walked down the road the extra mile with you. You have heard the Way of salvation But have wilfully rejected it and denigrated the love of the Messiah Jesus.

You will not be able to say on the day of Judgement. "But God no one revealed to me your way." It has been given to you for your acceptance or rejection. And you have committed the great evil of rejecting the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus.

I actually believe many muslims who never had the chance in their lives to hear the true message of Jesus will get the opportunity and will be saved. But you murad, from what you have revealed of your mind i believe you will never repent and be saved.

His will shall be done.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[micatala]

I Think i have walked down the road the extra mile with you. You have heard the Way of salvation But have wilfully rejected it and denigrated the love of the Messiah Jesus.

You will not be able to say on the day of Judgement. "But God no one revealed to me your way." It has been given to you for your acceptance or rejection. And you have committed the great evil of rejecting the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus.

I actually believe many muslims who never had the chance in their lives to hear the true message of Jesus will get the opportunity and will be saved. But you murad, from what you have revealed of your mind i believe you will never repent and be saved.

His will shall be done.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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[Enquirer]

The greatest sin in all religions seems to be heresy--believing something other than the prevailing groupthink.

Former Christian,
We Muslims never never leave our religion, you know why?

Hi, 'Happy Forever',
well firstly may I make so bold as to state that your assertion is fatally flawed. Secondly may I make so bold as to suggest that many who don't, do so because of the fear of/reality of consequences [can include death] from family, Islamic society, religious authorities, especially in the dar al-Islam - also the very intimidating passages in the Qur'an and the rest of the 'Trilogy' regarding apostates.

There is far more to be said in the 'Trilogy' that condemns the apostate with fearful and extreme consequences, than the odd passage in the Qur'an, which in any case has other passages that appear in contradiction.

Here is a 'debate' with references from the wiki:
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

[McCulloch]

The greatest sin in all religions seems to be heresy--believing something other than the prevailing groupthink.

Former Christian,
We Muslims never never leave our religion, you know why?

I know of a few former Muslims. Nissar Hussein, Yasmin, Noor, Ruth, Anwar Sheikh, Ibn Warraq, Azam Kamguian, Hashem Aghajari, Mina Ahadi, Maher Ahmad El-Mo'otahssem Bellah El-Gohary, Maryam Namazie, Abdul Rahman, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ehsan Jami, Loubna Berrada, Afshin Ellian and Pazuzu bin Hanbi.

However, I think that the most common Muslim response to this would be what is known as the No True Scotsman fallacy. It asserts, without support, that those who seem to have left Islam, were never true Muslims in the first place. Using this kind of reasoning, there are no former Christians, no former Muslims, no former Mormons, no former Catholics, no former Atheists and no former Pastafarians.

One reason why there may be fewer former Muslims, is that some Muslims and some Islamic states, support the murder of those who chose to leave that religion. The fact that a significant number of Islamic institutions reject freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom of thought and fundamental human rights, is not an advertisement to join or even to investigate that religion. I would be very cautious about formally learning about a religion where it might be a fatal mistake to renounce it, if for any reason certain adherents even mistakenly believed that I had joined.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

The greatest sin in all religions seems to be heresy--believing something other than the prevailing groupthink.

Former Christian,
We Muslims never never leave our religion, you know why?

Of course, that is not a true statement. For example, we have a member that is a former Muslim on this board , although he hasn't shown up recently.


One reason, according to some, is that leaving the religion is a death sentence.

http://anglicansablaze.blogspot.com/201 ... nvert.html

Hello! Real life seems to have gotten in the way. And yes, I am a former (= ex–) muslim.

Islam has the unforgivable sin of ‘associating partners with god’, in other words any form of overt polytheism.

Christianity does not forgive denying the Holy Spirit.

[Burninglight]

Mormons believe in only one unforgivable sin. That is, having a perfect knowledge and testimony of the truth and denying it.

It is the same with the Christian faith. Jesus being the perfect truth and denying him as our savior