Well, just want to see if anyone is interested why Islam is right.
canadianhorsefan
Islam
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Post #171
How long do you think you would be walking the streets of Mecca if you told the Muslims there that Jesus is God?
"I and my Father are One."
Keep reading the Koran. And of course don't stop reading the Bible. You know, the one that says that Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac and NOT Ishmael.
If you teach this in Mecca (or any Muslim country), I'll see what I can do about calling the American embassy to get your remains sent to wherever your family lives.
"I and my Father are One."
Keep reading the Koran. And of course don't stop reading the Bible. You know, the one that says that Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac and NOT Ishmael.
If you teach this in Mecca (or any Muslim country), I'll see what I can do about calling the American embassy to get your remains sent to wherever your family lives.
AlAyeti
Post #172Greetings AlAyeti,
I have re-read my post and other than saying:-
"With this evidence from the Qur'an, which confirms what the Book (Holy Bible) says about Him (Isa, Jesus), I would have to say I believe in Allah (God), but not the Allah that Islam today teaches, which goes against it's own word (Qur'an),Torah (Old Testament),and, Injil (New Testament)."
I have not stated that Jesus is God, (Of course, I, as a Christian, believe that Jesus, [Immanuel, God with us] is who He said He is, that's why the Jews put Him to death!). All I have done is posted Sura's from the Qur'an, if from them you conclude I have declared Jesus is God, then surely you must re-examine the texts!
"How long do you think you would be walking the streets of Mecca if you told the Muslims there that Jesus is God?"
"If you teach this in Mecca (or any Muslim country), I'll see what I can do about calling the American embassy to get your remains sent to wherever your family lives."
These two statements are very irresponsible, Muslims in the U.S.A and here in the U.K are trying to convince us that they are peaceful, after 9/11 and 7/7!
If a Muslim came upon a Christian gathering and started to denounce Jesus as God, he would be ushered out peacefully and then engaged in discussion, his life would not be in danger, he would be able to return to his family, with no animosity! But you say I would be in mortal danger if I was in a Muslim country and did the same! Hmm interesting!!
My post primarily was to answer the question posed and how it was followed by a statement that concluded that if the answer was 'yes' then it confirmed Islam was right!
I have re-read my post and other than saying:-
"With this evidence from the Qur'an, which confirms what the Book (Holy Bible) says about Him (Isa, Jesus), I would have to say I believe in Allah (God), but not the Allah that Islam today teaches, which goes against it's own word (Qur'an),Torah (Old Testament),and, Injil (New Testament)."
I have not stated that Jesus is God, (Of course, I, as a Christian, believe that Jesus, [Immanuel, God with us] is who He said He is, that's why the Jews put Him to death!). All I have done is posted Sura's from the Qur'an, if from them you conclude I have declared Jesus is God, then surely you must re-examine the texts!
"How long do you think you would be walking the streets of Mecca if you told the Muslims there that Jesus is God?"
"If you teach this in Mecca (or any Muslim country), I'll see what I can do about calling the American embassy to get your remains sent to wherever your family lives."
These two statements are very irresponsible, Muslims in the U.S.A and here in the U.K are trying to convince us that they are peaceful, after 9/11 and 7/7!
If a Muslim came upon a Christian gathering and started to denounce Jesus as God, he would be ushered out peacefully and then engaged in discussion, his life would not be in danger, he would be able to return to his family, with no animosity! But you say I would be in mortal danger if I was in a Muslim country and did the same! Hmm interesting!!
My post primarily was to answer the question posed and how it was followed by a statement that concluded that if the answer was 'yes' then it confirmed Islam was right!
Post #173
You are a very respectful person.
But, Islam is not right.
Abraham did not try to sacrifice Ishmael.
Isaac is important for many, many reasons and the formulators of the Koran obviously knew that.
No Isaac, no Jacob (no Israel). Also No Jesus. The Messianic line comes through this fact.
The Christians have left intact the Tanakh (the Old Testament). The Muslims did it the most harm at its most important point for their most important reasons.
I know that is not all that nice to hear, but it is a fact.
Jews and Chrsitians CAN be friends of each other just like the Koran says. All of the Disciples were Bible-believing Jews. Translation of thought and Messianic meaning of certain texts seperate Jews and Chrsitians, but certainly not a re-writing and changing of the Biblical texts.
But, Islam is not right.
Abraham did not try to sacrifice Ishmael.
Isaac is important for many, many reasons and the formulators of the Koran obviously knew that.
No Isaac, no Jacob (no Israel). Also No Jesus. The Messianic line comes through this fact.
The Christians have left intact the Tanakh (the Old Testament). The Muslims did it the most harm at its most important point for their most important reasons.
I know that is not all that nice to hear, but it is a fact.
Jews and Chrsitians CAN be friends of each other just like the Koran says. All of the Disciples were Bible-believing Jews. Translation of thought and Messianic meaning of certain texts seperate Jews and Chrsitians, but certainly not a re-writing and changing of the Biblical texts.
Cross purpose
Post #174AlAyeti,
(I am assuming your last post was to me, Deqsan)
My apologies, I am new to this forum, and have not read in depth the posts entered, if I had done so , I would have realised your post of July 28th was not an attack on me but a generalised statement as to what would happen if I were to say Jesus is God in such places, and that you are my brother in Christ, sorry again for my oversight,
Deqsan.
(I am assuming your last post was to me, Deqsan)
My apologies, I am new to this forum, and have not read in depth the posts entered, if I had done so , I would have realised your post of July 28th was not an attack on me but a generalised statement as to what would happen if I were to say Jesus is God in such places, and that you are my brother in Christ, sorry again for my oversight,
Deqsan.
Post #175
I have heard the claim that the qur'an talks about embryology and space before as evidence pointing towards it's veracity. I would be interested to hear what evidence it contains regarding embryology that was not previously penned by Galen and for space that is shown to be correct. Surely not the passage that states that the sun sets in a deep well or a muddy pool.canadianhorsefan wrote: Let's see from a different angle. How do I know he wasn't crucified? The Qur'an. How do I know the Qur'an is true? Well, there are things in it. For example, it talks about embryology and space. No wait, they knew all that stuff 1400 years ago. Maybe they cut people up and sent human cannonballs into space. Sorry if I'm sarcastic, but I just want you to see the truth, okay?
canadianhorsefan
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unprofitable servant
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islam
Post #176[AlAyeti]But, Islam is not right.
Abraham did not try to sacrifice Ishmael.
[/quote]
8 So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. 10 Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” 11 And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13 Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”
14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba. 15 And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. 16 Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, “Let me not see the death of the boy.” So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept.
You keep missing the point of the Qu'ran when it says sacrifice. It is not telling you that Ishmael was sacrificed as Isaac.
Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. Gen 21:5
Ishmael was 13-14 years old when Isaac was born,Abram being 86. Gen 16:16
According to Gen 21:14 Abraham gave Hagar "bread and a skin of water and putting it on her shoulder he gave it and the boy to Hagar and sent her away"
If you were to give a woman and a 13 year old boy bread and water and sent them into the wilderness wouldn't this be a sacrifice?
Being a hundred years old and living in the wilderness Gen 12:4 for 25 years you would know that some bread and a skin of water is not enough substance for a child and a woman to survive on.
So the sacrifice of Ishmael was the casting of the child and his mother into the wilderness, it is not the same as Abrahams offering of Isaac.
Also it is not Islam that is not right, but as Jesus said "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" that is not right in Islam.
The one that recited to the prophet did not tell Muslims to kill christians and Jews these teachings come from men.
Abraham did not try to sacrifice Ishmael.
[/quote]
8 So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. 10 Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” 11 And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13 Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”
14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba. 15 And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. 16 Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, “Let me not see the death of the boy.” So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept.
You keep missing the point of the Qu'ran when it says sacrifice. It is not telling you that Ishmael was sacrificed as Isaac.
Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. Gen 21:5
Ishmael was 13-14 years old when Isaac was born,Abram being 86. Gen 16:16
According to Gen 21:14 Abraham gave Hagar "bread and a skin of water and putting it on her shoulder he gave it and the boy to Hagar and sent her away"
If you were to give a woman and a 13 year old boy bread and water and sent them into the wilderness wouldn't this be a sacrifice?
Being a hundred years old and living in the wilderness Gen 12:4 for 25 years you would know that some bread and a skin of water is not enough substance for a child and a woman to survive on.
So the sacrifice of Ishmael was the casting of the child and his mother into the wilderness, it is not the same as Abrahams offering of Isaac.
Also it is not Islam that is not right, but as Jesus said "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" that is not right in Islam.
The one that recited to the prophet did not tell Muslims to kill christians and Jews these teachings come from men.
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Nirvana-Eld
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Post #177
One thing to think about.
In Christianity Jesus spread his teachings via miracles.
In the same way the Buddha can perform miracles.
There are obviously other miraculous claims for other religions that I have over looked but my point is this. Mohammed performed no miracles. His only liability is that of he said he saw the angel Gabriel that he was told by God the message he preached. So hes a self proclaimed prophet. No real proof. This is all assuming that miracles can happen of course.
*edit* another thing to think about. I heard far earlier in this thread before it became sour with war/antiwar debate that it is the Muslim belief that Jesus is a prophet. We can all agree that given the benifit of the doubt in this particular topic (that there is a God) that prophets are wise men inspired by God. Well Jesus, having claimed to be God, is either one of two things.
A. a mad man and a blasphemer for claiming to be God.
B. God himself.
A wise man cannot claim to be God, because inherently the logic follows that any human who claims to be God is insane. Jesus showed no signs of insanity. (depression, anxiety, paranoia) So? Jesus is God. There are plenty more reasons for that trust me.
So back to the original question Yes I believe in God Allah Yahweh Jehovah and all of the above. I'll use a parable to express my point.
Four blind men encounter an elephant one feels the trunk and says "An elephant is like a snake." another feels the tail and says "No its a worm". another feels the body and says "Your both wrong its a leather wall." the last one feels the trunk and says " This is definately a leather a tree."
Everyone see God differently. I dont believe just one person or religion is totally right.
In Christianity Jesus spread his teachings via miracles.
In the same way the Buddha can perform miracles.
There are obviously other miraculous claims for other religions that I have over looked but my point is this. Mohammed performed no miracles. His only liability is that of he said he saw the angel Gabriel that he was told by God the message he preached. So hes a self proclaimed prophet. No real proof. This is all assuming that miracles can happen of course.
*edit* another thing to think about. I heard far earlier in this thread before it became sour with war/antiwar debate that it is the Muslim belief that Jesus is a prophet. We can all agree that given the benifit of the doubt in this particular topic (that there is a God) that prophets are wise men inspired by God. Well Jesus, having claimed to be God, is either one of two things.
A. a mad man and a blasphemer for claiming to be God.
B. God himself.
A wise man cannot claim to be God, because inherently the logic follows that any human who claims to be God is insane. Jesus showed no signs of insanity. (depression, anxiety, paranoia) So? Jesus is God. There are plenty more reasons for that trust me.
So back to the original question Yes I believe in God Allah Yahweh Jehovah and all of the above. I'll use a parable to express my point.
Four blind men encounter an elephant one feels the trunk and says "An elephant is like a snake." another feels the tail and says "No its a worm". another feels the body and says "Your both wrong its a leather wall." the last one feels the trunk and says " This is definately a leather a tree."
Everyone see God differently. I dont believe just one person or religion is totally right.
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McCulloch
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Post #178
This is a clear example of False Dilemma . The only agreed upon facts are that Jesus' biographers have recorded that he made statements which can be interpreted as claiming to be god and that the founders of the religious movement called christianity also makes that claim. So, there are many possibilities other than the two listed, here are two:Nirvana-Eld wrote:Well Jesus, having claimed to be God, is either one of two things.
A. a mad man and a blasphemer for claiming to be God.
B. God himself.
A wise man cannot claim to be God, because inherently the logic follows that any human who claims to be God is insane. Jesus showed no signs of insanity. (depression, anxiety, paranoia) So? Jesus is God. There are plenty more reasons for that trust me.
- Jesus never made such a claim, his biographers were mistaken,
- Jesus never existed
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Nirvana-Eld
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Post #179
I was not trying to disprove the accuracy or the credibility of the Gospels. But just to help the Christian case. St. Paul converted to Christianity about 5 years after the death of Christ. (If I'm wrong about that then tell me please.) And if the case is that St. Paul is wrong then there were thousands of people who heard Jesus' sermons who would have said "Hey thats not what he said!" In reply to Paul and Mark (who historically was Peters "son") there would have been an uproar amon the thousands of converts that said "I was there." And considering Christianity as we know it is "Pauline" we can pretty much say that Paul knew what he was writing.
My point was that Muslims are wrong about Jesus being a prophet, because he made those claims (John 5:18). So he is either insane or God. I personally believe the latter. Thank you for your contribution though these conclusions still might draw other possibilities.
There is overwhelming proof that says otherwise and none that I know of to disprove it.Jesus never existed
My point was that Muslims are wrong about Jesus being a prophet, because he made those claims (John 5:18). So he is either insane or God. I personally believe the latter. Thank you for your contribution though these conclusions still might draw other possibilities.
Post #180
Though this be a little of topic...I have been asking for years to see this 'overwhelmoing proof' of the existence of the Jesus of the gospels - none has been forthcoming.Nirvana-Eld wrote:
There is overwhelming proof that says otherwise and none that I know of to disprove it.
Care to offer what you have?
Lord, liar or lunatic has been discussed before, on this forum and elswhereNirvana-Eld wrote: So he is either insane or God.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
