Is Allah in the Quran the same God of the Bible?

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Burninglight
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Is Allah in the Quran the same God of the Bible?

Post #1

Post by Burninglight »

Allah means God in Arabic or the god as some contend. Muslims say yes he is the same god and some Christians say yes he is as well, but many Christians say "no He is not." The God in the Bible has a son, but Allah says he doesn't. Muslims say Christians associate partners unto God, but Christians say that is not true and that they are monotheistic or that God is one.

Muslims do not believe when Christians say they are not polytheistic. Christians say Muhammad isn't a confirmed Biblical prophet, but Muslims say he is. Muslims say the Bible has been corrupted, but Christians say the Quran is corrupted.

The Bible says Ishmael is no prophet. Muslims say he is. Jesus said he is "The Way, the Truth, and the Life." Muslims say he was that for his time and for the Jews he came only. Christians say that Jesus is the truth for all time and all people and that Jesus never said I show the truth or the way.

The Quran says that Jesus is not the word of God made flesh, but the Bible says he is. Muslims don't have eternal security, but Christians say we can know now from the Bible if we will be saved and know now if we have eternal life because God assures us. Christians believe that Jesus is Deity, but Muslim so no he is just a prophet or messenger.

Any of these topics on this thread are welcome and open for discussion and or debate!

Asher
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God Rested

Post #71

Post by Asher »

Peace be upon you all
Brother I'm still waiting however;

According to the bible All mighty God got tired after the creation as his word (bible) according to you says in Exodus 31:17-->It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

According to this verse God was refreshed;

John 14:6-->Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Why don't you follow the way then:
Jesus was baptized in the name of God--
And today Christians are baptized in the name of The FATHER, the SON and the HOLLY GHOST

To purify himself Jesus did ablution--
Paul taught you to pray Jesus as based on the fact that you are unclean

Jesus fast for 40day (neither eating nor drinking)--
Most of the Christians don't fast at all

Jesus said that he was sent to the lost she eps of israel--
But the Christians says that he was sent for the whole world
Because of John 3:16; they have just forgotten that in this time they thought that the world was flat, and that it could be seen from the "exceeding high mountain"
Matt4:8;

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Burninglight
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Re: God Rested

Post #72

Post by Burninglight »

Asher wrote: Peace be upon you all
Brother I'm still waiting however;

According to the bible All mighty God got tired after the creation as his word (bible) according to you says in Exodus 31:17-->It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

According to this verse God was refreshed;

John 14:6-->Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Why don't you follow the way then:
Jesus was baptized in the name of God--
And today Christians are baptized in the name of The FATHER, the SON and the HOLLY GHOST

To purify himself Jesus did ablution--
Paul taught you to pray Jesus as based on the fact that you are unclean

Jesus fast for 40day (neither eating nor drinking)--
Most of the Christians don't fast at all

Jesus said that he was sent to the lost she eps of israel--
But the Christians says that he was sent for the whole world
Because of John 3:16; they have just forgotten that in this time they thought that the world was flat, and that it could be seen from the "exceeding high mountain"
Matt4:8;
Jesus never needed to purify himself. How can God get tired. No where in the Bible does it say God got tired. That is an incorrect inference Muslims make. There are many ways to rest from doing something. Christians are not commanded to fast, but many do. So you are wrong about everything you inferred here!

Peace

Post #73

Post by Peace »

@Burninglight:
Do you believe Noah existed? Do you believe a great flood happened?
Yes in fact, Muslims are with the correct view that God's flood happened only on the transgressing people of Noah's people, not the enitire world. We know, historically, this is a false claim, especially with the dates that the Bible gives us on the event.

Another thing, is that Noah collected the species and people in his community only, probably some sheep, cows and livestock. Not every single species in the whole world, that would be utterly ridiculous - something I believe Christians believe!
God not only ordered the killing of women and children but he did the killing Himself in the flood.
This is a completely different idea. God kills millions all the time in earthquakes, floods and tsunamis, but, He has the right to do so. We are all God's so He can decided as He wills when it comes to His creation. However, if He orders humans to kill babies. elderly, women and 'sucklings' as the Bible puts it. I would be shocked. God would not order men to kill babies, full stop. It means that God is allowing us and justifying for us the death of young individuals by our hands.

And the concept of a rape victim marrying her attacker is just ridiculous, not to mention the 'enslaving' of entire cities when they agree to 'peace'. Your OT has a lot of violent references, an obvious result of human imagination.
God resting? It is worded that way in the Bible in the torah that is ordained by Allah for you to accept as his word. God rested could mean something less other than a man who gets tired from working. The Bible speaks in terms humans can identify with.
Well there are many other 'terms' that humans can 'identify' other than resting that doesn't show your concept of God getting 'refreshed' and 'rested'. It could have said, 'and then established Himself above the Throne' which is what the Qur'an says. Something that does not degrade God to a limited being. Your basically saying, God is insulting Himself because He cannot find any other word in the universe to better describe His position after creation, that we will understand!!

Let me just remind you the definition of 'rested':
restedpast participle, past tense of rest (Verb)
Verb:
Cease work or movement in order to relax, refresh oneself, or recover strength.
I don't think God needs to recover strength, refresh Himself or relax as if He's a human, Glory be to He!
No Christians believe that God was begotten like an animal begets or humans. God always was; His word (Jesus) always was.
Of course you do. You believe Jesus was God's begotten son, therefore God begets.
begets3rd person singular present of be·get (Verb)
Verb:
(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
I don't thing God reproduces! Glory be to He, thank God the Qur'an is free from such insulting descriptions of God Almighty.
You err not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. You are following the ideas and misconceptions of Muhammad and his god.
Nope, I am reading the absurd descriptions of God in your Bible. Not once did I quote 'ideas and misconceptions' of Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Christians don't believe many of Allah's and Muhammad's misconceptions about Christianity. One of the big ones is the trinity consisting of father mother and son!
Two points:

1) I showed you how what you are saying is completely false. It is a fact that in Arabia at one point in time, Christians thought of Mary as a God.

One more time I quote Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire:
The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.[5]
2) That is the only point you keep raising, that is false, and I keep refuting it with the same historical article. There is no 'other' misconceptions that our Qur'an gives about Christianity.

Is the Father God?
Is Jesus God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Are they all the same? If they are, then why does Jesus pray to the Father?

See, 4 lines that will completely throw Christianity off guard. You can't do the same with Islam. I really really hope you answer these questions carefully.

Take Care.

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Burninglight
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Post #74

Post by Burninglight »

Peace wrote: @Burninglight:
Do you believe Noah existed? Do you believe a great flood happened?
Yes in fact, Muslims are with the correct view that God's flood happened only on the transgressing people of Noah's people, not the enitire world. We know, historically, this is a false claim, especially with the dates that the Bible gives us on the event.

Another thing, is that Noah collected the species and people in his community only, probably some sheep, cows and livestock. Not every single species in the whole world, that would be utterly ridiculous - something I believe Christians believe!
God not only ordered the killing of women and children but he did the killing Himself in the flood.
This is a completely different idea. God kills millions all the time in earthquakes, floods and tsunamis, but, He has the right to do so. We are all God's so He can decided as He wills when it comes to His creation. However, if He orders humans to kill babies. elderly, women and 'sucklings' as the Bible puts it. I would be shocked. God would not order men to kill babies, full stop. It means that God is allowing us and justifying for us the death of young individuals by our hands.

And the concept of a rape victim marrying her attacker is just ridiculous, not to mention the 'enslaving' of entire cities when they agree to 'peace'. Your OT has a lot of violent references, an obvious result of human imagination.
God resting? It is worded that way in the Bible in the torah that is ordained by Allah for you to accept as his word. God rested could mean something less other than a man who gets tired from working. The Bible speaks in terms humans can identify with.
Well there are many other 'terms' that humans can 'identify' other than resting that doesn't show your concept of God getting 'refreshed' and 'rested'. It could have said, 'and then established Himself above the Throne' which is what the Qur'an says. Something that does not degrade God to a limited being. Your basically saying, God is insulting Himself because He cannot find any other word in the universe to better describe His position after creation, that we will understand!!

Let me just remind you the definition of 'rested':
restedpast participle, past tense of rest (Verb)
Verb:
Cease work or movement in order to relax, refresh oneself, or recover strength.
I don't think God needs to recover strength, refresh Himself or relax as if He's a human, Glory be to He!
No Christians believe that God was begotten like an animal begets or humans. God always was; His word (Jesus) always was.
Of course you do. You believe Jesus was God's begotten son, therefore God begets.
begets3rd person singular present of be·get (Verb)
Verb:
(typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
I don't thing God reproduces! Glory be to He, thank God the Qur'an is free from such insulting descriptions of God Almighty.
You err not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. You are following the ideas and misconceptions of Muhammad and his god.
Nope, I am reading the absurd descriptions of God in your Bible. Not once did I quote 'ideas and misconceptions' of Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Christians don't believe many of Allah's and Muhammad's misconceptions about Christianity. One of the big ones is the trinity consisting of father mother and son!
Two points:

1) I showed you how what you are saying is completely false. It is a fact that in Arabia at one point in time, Christians thought of Mary as a God.

One more time I quote Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire:
The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.[5]
2) That is the only point you keep raising, that is false, and I keep refuting it with the same historical article. There is no 'other' misconceptions that our Qur'an gives about Christianity.

Is the Father God?
Is Jesus God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Are they all the same? If they are, then why does Jesus pray to the Father?

See, 4 lines that will completely throw Christianity off guard. You can't do the same with Islam. I really really hope you answer these questions carefully.

Take Care.
Your arguments are ridiculous: First of all, I agree with Matt Slick who states about Muslims like you who repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that the Qu'ran is the only trustworthy scripture in existence. This is why Muslims often attack the Bible. But this cannot be according to the Quran. The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

•Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).1
•Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
•Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).
We see that the Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu'ran since the Qu'ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

•"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
•"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
•"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).
When Mohammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?"

The Bible states that it was a world wide flood and their is scientific evidence that this happened. You don't believe the Quran, and you don't believe the Bible. IMO, You have more in common with unbelievers. You say at one time Mary was worshipped. She's still is worshipped as mother of God by misguided Catholic Christians, but even those Christians never believed she was a person of the trinity like can be inferred from the Quran. No Christian ever did. Hence you are stuck with Allah and Muhammad's misconception of the true Christian Trinity who is not 3 gods but one only. The Lord our God is one.

Allah obviously thought Christians believed Mary was part of the trinity no other logical inference can be made. Muslim are stuck with nasty discrepancies to say the least. Like Allah and Muhammad Muslims confuse true Christianity with paganistic Catholicism. Allah didn't no the Bible or the Spirit of God. Christians never believe the Holy Spirit was Gabriel but Muslim do. If Allah had mentioned the Holy Spirit just once as the third person of the trinity, I would be silent. But everyone can talk about this.

I never said the Father and Jesus are the same. I said Jesus is before Abraham; He is the word of God; He is the son of God. I didn't say God seared Jesus either nor does the Bible. This is what you say I said. Today's Muslims believe the Bible to be corrupted; not even Muhammad believed this, lol, and who knows how the Quran was changed by Uthman? You have NO substance to your arguments against Christianity, except for the deception of Allah and Muhammad!

Unlike Muslims this Christian doesn't believe man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's power to preserve it. Moreover, an argument that God rested is nothing short of stupid. Finally, the Bible is a historical document that contains what God said and did and man's errors and sins. Because man's sins are recorded doesn't mean God condoned it.

As far as God's judgment falling on men woman and children. Who made you God's judge?

Peace

Post #75

Post by Peace »

@Burninglight:
Your arguments are ridiculous: First of all, I agree with Matt Slick who states about Muslims like you who repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that the Qu'ran is the only trustworthy scripture in existence. This is why Muslims often attack the Bible. But this cannot be according to the Quran. The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.
Yes we believe in the Gospel sent to Jesus and the Torah of Moses and the Pslams of David etc... You can't be Muslim if you don't. Our problem is, is the current Bible the original Gospel sent to Jesus? I can debate this with you for the rest of my life. Even Christians know the authors of the seperate Gosples are anonymous.
The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew for the sake of convenience, drew no only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mk that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke. - The New American Bible, Page 1008
Although the book is anonymous, apart from the ancient heading "According to Mark" in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mother's house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled. - The New American Bible, Page 1064
I don't think Jesus had all these 'separate books', maybe some parts of the original Gospel is in the current Bible, but I don't believe in its entirety it is the Word of God. The Church is constantly removing 'interpolations' and 'fabrications', that at one point in time were called 'God's word'. How can I be sure that the Bible I have today is not free from future editions and revisions? We can seee the product of human imagination in the Bibles description of the creation of the universe and the contradictions within the text, not to mention it is in English (not the original language).

When Mohammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?"
First of all, God did not say He will protect the Gospel, Torah or Psalms. The verse specifically says:
Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).- Surah (15:9)
The Qur'an is specifically referring to itself. As to when the Bible got corrupted we don't know exactly when it started, but we can definitely relflect of the History of the OT and NT and conclude that there was definitely no preservation methods in place and the writers freely edited the text as they willed.

Study the disappearance and reappearance of the OT at a time when the people were extremely unstable in their beliefs, one is reminded of such example such as when the Jews built the Golden calf for worship only 40 days after Moses left for supplication. This does not sound like a stable community. Besides the history of the corruption and wickedness of the Kings of Judah and Israel constantly building temples for the worship of Idols and non-monotheistic deities, we even find logical absurdities in the text itself - a product of human imagination:

1) Like when Jacob literary wrestles with God and wins! - Genesis (32:24-28)

2) Like how the number of Israelites at the Exodus estimated at 2,000,000 - I would leave this for your imagination to try and summarize how a tribe of seventy people freshly arriving in Egypt, were able to multiply in excess of 2 million within a mere 215 years, especially so when the male newborns were being systematically killed for the last eight decades.

3) We already spoke about God 'repenting' like a common sinner (Exodus 32:14)

4) The insult to Solomon (peace be upon him) which the Bible claim was a 'Yahwist' yet as well as building his Temple, he simultaneously erected pagan shrines for his wives (which apparently number 700 as well as 300 concubines!) and has even been influenced by his wives to pay tokens of respect to their gods! - read Dictionary of the Bible, pg 410.

We are not even close to finishing about this text, but there are obvious interpolations and the history of Judah and Israel is shocking, I cannot believe such unstable people were able to keep the text that disappeared accurate.

Don't let me even start on the NT.
The Bible states that it was a world wide flood and their is scientific evidence that this happened. You don't believe the Quran, and you don't believe the Bible.
I do believe the Qur'an, it says a flood happened to the people of Noah - not the people of the world. Scientific evidence? please dude...

When we examine the OT description of the flood we are actually confronted with two descriptions of the Flood, at different times:

1) The Yahvist version (9th century B.C.)
2) The Sacerdotal version (6th century B.C.) - so called because it was the work of priests at that time

These two descriptions are interwoven and not juxtaposed. When a Yahvist entry is cited, a sacerdotal entry is inserted in between. Thus we find obvious contradictions between the two versions.

The Sacerdotal narration states that the Flood took place when Noah was 600 years old. According to the genealogies in chapter 5 of Genesis we know Noah was born 1056 years after Adam. Therefore the flood would have taken place 1655 years after the creation of Adam.

The genealogical table of Abraham, taken from the same text (Genesis (11, 10 -32)) allows us to estimate that Abraham was born 292 years after the flood. We also know that (according to the Bible) Abraham was alive in roughly 1850 B.C., the Flood would therefore be situated in the 21st or 22nd century B.C.

We see the problem now, how is it possible that a universal cataclysm in the 21st or 22nd century B.C. destroying all life on Earth (expect for the people and animals in the ark)? In Egypt at the time, the intermediate period followed the end of the Old kingdom and preceded the beginning of the middle kingdom. It would be absurd to maintain that the flood had destroyed all civilization at that time.

We also can logically conclude that it would be absurd that Noah (peace be upon him) collected all the species of the world and fit them on an ark, that he built himself. I'm sorry dude, but I'm not going to blindly accept such a book. Thank God the Qur'an doesn't contain such absurdities!
IMO, You have more in common with unbelievers. You say at one time Mary was worshipped. She's still is worshipped as mother of God by misguided Catholic Christians, but even those Christians never believed she was a person of the trinity like can be inferred from the Quran. No Christian ever did.
Read The Orthdox Corruption Of Scripture: The Effect Of Early Christological Controversies On The Text Of The New Testament:
Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated.

Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the realm of theology. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in only one God; others, however, claimed that there were two Gods; yet others subscribed to 30, or 365, or more. Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity. Some Christians believed that God had created the world and was soon going to redeem it; others said that God neither had created the world nor had ever had any dealings with it. Some Christians believed that Christ was somehow both a man and God; others said that he was a man, but not God; others claimed that he was God but not a man; others insisted that he was a man who had been temporarily inhabited by God. Some Christians believed that Christ's death had brought about the salvation of the world; others claimed that his death had no bearing on salvation; yet others alleged that he had never even died.
We also saw how "Collyridians" used to worship Mary. God is very clear on associating partners with Him for worship. We know that all the entities of the modern trinity are worshiped, so why exclude Mary? At one point in time, they didn't. Please read about Collyridians .
Hence you are stuck with Allah and Muhammad's misconception of the true Christian Trinity who is not 3 gods but one only. The Lord our God is one.
Answer my questions to prove it:

Is the Father God?
Is Jesus God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Are they all the same? If they are, then why does Jesus pray to the Father?
I never said the Father and Jesus are the same.
You might not have but your book does:
1 John (5:7) - ""For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiel ... nglish.svg

We can see the obvious logical fallacy with the picture.
I said Jesus is before Abraham; He is the word of God; He is the son of God. I didn't say God seared Jesus either nor does the Bible.
This is what you say I said.
I never said that God seared Jesus, I never accused you of saying anything. I don't care what you believe, I care about what the Bible says. The Bible very clearly shows the contradictions of such a concept as trinity. You know I wouldn't have a problem with it if the text was stable in it's description of it.
Today's Muslims believe the Bible to be corrupted; not even Muhammad believed this, lol, and who knows how the Quran was changed by Uthman?
This was thoroughly refuted before, and you reminded me, you still owe me a reply!
You have NO substance to your arguments against Christianity, except for the deception of Allah and Muhammad!
Also thoroughly refuted before, I will cease continuing with you if you keep bringing up concepts previously refuted. And I do have substance against the Christianity, I simply have the Bible.
Unlike Muslims this Christian doesn't believe man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's power to preserve it. Moreover, an argument that God rested is nothing short of stupid.
It is a quite silly explanation that you gave. I do not believe there are other meanings for 'rest' other than to replenish energy or relax. I don't believe God was a finite being that needed to be refreshed.
Finally, the Bible is a historical document that contains what God said and did and man's errors and sins. Because man's sins are recorded doesn't mean God condoned it.
OK but what about when God very clearly orders believers to sin? Like when the Lord advises the Isrealites to steal at the Exodus? or when he orders villages to be enslaved when they agree to 'peace'? or when he orders the killing of babies by armies?
As far as God's judgment falling on men woman and children. Who made you God's judge?
You are right, I am not here to judge His actions. However I may judge the concept of the Christian God being 'All-Loving'. That is something we can definitely debate in light of your scripture.

Hope this has helped!

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Burninglight
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The Bible is the truth

Post #76

Post by Burninglight »

Peace wrote: @Burninglight:
Your arguments are ridiculous: First of all, I agree with Matt Slick who states about Muslims like you who repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that the Qu'ran is the only trustworthy scripture in existence. This is why Muslims often attack the Bible. But this cannot be according to the Quran. The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.
Yes we believe in the Gospel sent to Jesus and the Torah of Moses and the Psalms of David etc... You can't be Muslim if you don't. Our problem is, is the current Bible the original Gospel sent to Jesus? I can debate this with you for the rest of my life. Even Christians know the authors of the separate Gosples are anonymous.
The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew for the sake of convenience, drew no only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mk that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke. - The New American Bible, Page 1008
Although the book is anonymous, apart from the ancient heading "According to Mark" in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mother's house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled. - The New American Bible, Page 1064
I don't think Jesus had all these 'separate books', maybe some parts of the original Gospel is in the current Bible, but I don't believe in its entirety it is the Word of God. The Church is constantly removing 'interpolations' and 'fabrications', that at one point in time were called 'God's word'. How can I be sure that the Bible I have today is not free from future editions and revisions? We can see the product of human imagination in the Bibles description of the creation of the universe and the contradictions within the text, not to mention it is in English (not the original language).

When Mohammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?"
First of all, God did not say He will protect the Gospel, Torah or Psalms. The verse specifically says:
Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).- Surah (15:9)
The Qur'an is specifically referring to itself. As to when the Bible got corrupted we don't know exactly when it started, but we can definitely relflect of the History of the OT and NT and conclude that there was definitely no preservation methods in place and the writers freely edited the text as they willed.

Study the disappearance and reappearance of the OT at a time when the people were extremely unstable in their beliefs, one is reminded of such example such as when the Jews built the Golden calf for worship only 40 days after Moses left for supplication. This does not sound like a stable community. Besides the history of the corruption and wickedness of the Kings of Judah and Israel constantly building temples for the worship of Idols and non-monotheistic deities, we even find logical absurdities in the text itself - a product of human imagination:

1) Like when Jacob literary wrestles with God and wins! - Genesis (32:24-28)

2) Like how the number of Israelites at the Exodus estimated at 2,000,000 - I would leave this for your imagination to try and summarize how a tribe of seventy people freshly arriving in Egypt, were able to multiply in excess of 2 million within a mere 215 years, especially so when the male newborns were being systematically killed for the last eight decades.

3) We already spoke about God 'repenting' like a common sinner (Exodus 32:14)

4) The insult to Solomon (peace be upon him) which the Bible claim was a 'Yahwist' yet as well as building his Temple, he simultaneously erected pagan shrines for his wives (which apparently number 700 as well as 300 concubines!) and has even been influenced by his wives to pay tokens of respect to their gods! - read Dictionary of the Bible, pg 410.

We are not even close to finishing about this text, but there are obvious interpolations and the history of Judah and Israel is shocking, I cannot believe such unstable people were able to keep the text that disappeared accurate.

Don't let me even start on the NT.
The Bible states that it was a world wide flood and their is scientific evidence that this happened. You don't believe the Quran, and you don't believe the Bible.
I do believe the Qur'an, it says a flood happened to the people of Noah - not the people of the world. Scientific evidence? please dude...

When we examine the OT description of the flood we are actually confronted with two descriptions of the Flood, at different times:

1) The Yahvist version (9th century B.C.)
2) The Sacerdotal version (6th century B.C.) - so called because it was the work of priests at that time

These two descriptions are interwoven and not juxtaposed. When a Yahvist entry is cited, a sacerdotal entry is inserted in between. Thus we find obvious contradictions between the two versions.

The Sacerdotal narration states that the Flood took place when Noah was 600 years old. According to the genealogies in chapter 5 of Genesis we know Noah was born 1056 years after Adam. Therefore the flood would have taken place 1655 years after the creation of Adam.

The genealogical table of Abraham, taken from the same text (Genesis (11, 10 -32)) allows us to estimate that Abraham was born 292 years after the flood. We also know that (according to the Bible) Abraham was alive in roughly 1850 B.C., the Flood would therefore be situated in the 21st or 22nd century B.C.

We see the problem now, how is it possible that a universal cataclysm in the 21st or 22nd century B.C. destroying all life on Earth (expect for the people and animals in the ark)? In Egypt at the time, the intermediate period followed the end of the Old kingdom and preceded the beginning of the middle kingdom. It would be absurd to maintain that the flood had destroyed all civilization at that time.

We also can logically conclude that it would be absurd that Noah (peace be upon him) collected all the species of the world and fit them on an ark, that he built himself. I'm sorry dude, but I'm not going to blindly accept such a book. Thank God the Qur'an doesn't contain such absurdities!
IMO, You have more in common with unbelievers. You say at one time Mary was worshipped. She's still is worshipped as mother of God by misguided Catholic Christians, but even those Christians never believed she was a person of the trinity like can be inferred from the Quran. No Christian ever did.
Read The Orthdox Corruption Of Scripture: The Effect Of Early Christological Controversies On The Text Of The New Testament:
Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated.

Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the realm of theology. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in only one God; others, however, claimed that there were two Gods; yet others subscribed to 30, or 365, or more. Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity. Some Christians believed that God had created the world and was soon going to redeem it; others said that God neither had created the world nor had ever had any dealings with it. Some Christians believed that Christ was somehow both a man and God; others said that he was a man, but not God; others claimed that he was God but not a man; others insisted that he was a man who had been temporarily inhabited by God. Some Christians believed that Christ's death had brought about the salvation of the world; others claimed that his death had no bearing on salvation; yet others alleged that he had never even died.
We also saw how "Collyridians" used to worship Mary. God is very clear on associating partners with Him for worship. We know that all the entities of the modern trinity are worshiped, so why exclude Mary? At one point in time, they didn't. Please read about Collyridians .
Hence you are stuck with Allah and Muhammad's misconception of the true Christian Trinity who is not 3 gods but one only. The Lord our God is one.
Answer my questions to prove it:

Is the Father God?
Is Jesus God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Are they all the same? If they are, then why does Jesus pray to the Father?
I never said the Father and Jesus are the same.
You might not have but your book does:
1 John (5:7) - ""For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiel ... nglish.svg

We can see the obvious logical fallacy with the picture.
I said Jesus is before Abraham; He is the word of God; He is the son of God. I didn't say God seared Jesus either nor does the Bible.
This is what you say I said.
I never said that God seared Jesus, I never accused you of saying anything. I don't care what you believe, I care about what the Bible says. The Bible very clearly shows the contradictions of such a concept as trinity. You know I wouldn't have a problem with it if the text was stable in it's description of it.
Today's Muslims believe the Bible to be corrupted; not even Muhammad believed this, lol, and who knows how the Quran was changed by Uthman?
This was thoroughly refuted before, and you reminded me, you still owe me a reply!
You have NO substance to your arguments against Christianity, except for the deception of Allah and Muhammad!
Also thoroughly refuted before, I will cease continuing with you if you keep bringing up concepts previously refuted. And I do have substance against the Christianity, I simply have the Bible.
Unlike Muslims this Christian doesn't believe man's power to corrupt God's word is greater than God's power to preserve it. Moreover, an argument that God rested is nothing short of stupid.
It is a quite silly explanation that you gave. I do not believe there are other meanings for 'rest' other than to replenish energy or relax. I don't believe God was a finite being that needed to be refreshed.
Finally, the Bible is a historical document that contains what God said and did and man's errors and sins. Because man's sins are recorded doesn't mean God condoned it.
OK but what about when God very clearly orders believers to sin? Like when the Lord advises the Isrealites to steal at the Exodus? or when he orders villages to be enslaved when they agree to 'peace'? or when he orders the killing of babies by armies?
As far as God's judgment falling on men woman and children. Who made you God's judge?
You are right, I am not here to judge His actions. However I may judge the concept of the Christian God being 'All-Loving'. That is something we can definitely debate in light of your scripture.

Hope this has helped!
I notice you say we can discuss it in light of my Scripture, but the my Scripture is suppose to be yours too. Muhammad used the Scriptures so the corruption you speak of had to have happened sometime after Muhammad's death. But the SCRIPTURES WE HAVE ARE STILL THE SAME as before Muhammad was born. Muhammad never said they were corrupted and the Bible says in Psalm that God's word is established forever in heaven, and Jesus said thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Muhammad never said the Bible was corrupted. Islam is a total lie IMO.

So, your Bible corruption argument doesn't hold water for a second. IMO, it is a stupid Muslim excuse to get out following God's word. What does it matter when it was written or who wrote it. This wasn't Muhammade's concern. Why is it yours?? Are you brainwashed? It is what God has allowed us to have for over a 1000 years before Muhammad was born. What is a fact, however, is that you don't know what kind of corruptions Uthman put in the Qur'an, because he burned the evidence and Marwan destroyed the only copy Uthman used to recompile the Quran. It wasn't even oral tradition that was used to put the Quran together; it was with the help of text. Most of them that memorized the Quran were killed. Why would your Muslim leaders destroy Hafsa's original if it was prefect?

Finally, Mary was not part of the trinity even though she was worshipped. Allah was ignorant about the Biblical trinity, because he is no god nor is Muhammad a prophet I could swear to that, but I won't because Jesus said not to swear!!! IMHO, Islam is a damnable hersey.

Asher
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Post #77

Post by Asher »

Peace be upon you all
How can God get tired. No where in the Bible does it say God got tired. That is an incorrect inference Muslims make. There are many ways to rest from doing something.
This is the language of your bible; If you are Tired, take a rest and feel Refreshed, it is clearly stated that God was refreshed.

Isaiah 28:12-->To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Exodus 23:12-->“Six days you shall do your work, and on the seventh day you shall rest, that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your handmaid, and the alien may be refreshed.
Exodus 31:17-->It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Jesus never needed to purify himself.
Matthew 23:25-->Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matthew 23:26-->Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus was teaching ablution, and he was not of the "hypocrites" he taught thing that he did;
Matthew 23:2-3--> Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Luke 6:45-49--> A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Jesus was baptized in the name of God-- And today Christians are baptized in the name of The FATHER, the SON and the HOLLY GHOST
Luke 3:21--> Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened
In the this time they didn't know the concept of the "trinity of God";
Christians are not commanded to fast
When the man who's son was a lunatic came to Jesus and the disciples were not able to cast the devil out of the guy they ask Jesus why couldn't they cast the devil out
Matthew 17:21-->Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:29-->And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
Matthew 6:16 -->Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
In other words he's telling you to fast, but not like the hypocrites;
So you are wrong about everything you inferred here!
"Jesus fast for 40day (neither eating nor drinking)-- Most of the Christians don't fast at all"
I want to know who fast like Jesus (neither eating nor drinking for forty days)??

Because of John 3:16; they have just forgotten that in this time they thought that the world was flat, and that it could be seen from the "exceeding high mountain"
Matthew 4:8-->Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
Try to go to mountain Everest and see whether you can see all the kingdoms of the worlds or how far you are able to see.

Asher
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Location: Mauritius

Post #78

Post by Asher »

Peace be upon you all
How can God get tired. No where in the Bible does it say God got tired. That is an incorrect inference Muslims make. There are many ways to rest from doing something.
This is the language of your bible; If you are Tired, take a rest and feel Refreshed, it is clearly stated that God was refreshed.

Isaiah 28:12-->To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Exodus 23:12-->“Six days you shall do your work, and on the seventh day you shall rest, that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your handmaid, and the alien may be refreshed.
Exodus 31:17-->It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Jesus never needed to purify himself.
Matthew 23:25-->Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matthew 23:26-->Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus was teaching ablution, and he was not of the "hypocrites" he taught thing that he did;
Matthew 23:2-3--> Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Luke 6:45-49--> A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Jesus was baptized in the name of God-- And today Christians are baptized in the name of The FATHER, the SON and the HOLLY GHOST
Luke 3:21--> Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened
In the this time they didn't know the concept of the "trinity of God";
Christians are not commanded to fast
When the man who's son was a lunatic came to Jesus and the disciples were not able to cast the devil out of the guy they ask Jesus why couldn't they cast the devil out
Matthew 17:21-->Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:29-->And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
Matthew 6:16 -->Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
In other words he's telling you to fast, but not like the hypocrites;
So you are wrong about everything you inferred here!
"Jesus fast for 40day (neither eating nor drinking)-- Most of the Christians don't fast at all"
I want to know who fast like Jesus (neither eating nor drinking for forty days)??

Because of John 3:16; they have just forgotten that in this time they thought that the world was flat, and that it could be seen from the "exceeding high mountain"
Matthew 4:8-->Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
Try to go to mountain Everest and see whether you can see all the kingdoms of the worlds or how far you are able to see.

Asher
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Location: Mauritius

Post #79

Post by Asher »

I notice you say we can discuss it in light of my Scripture, but the my Scripture is suppose to be yours too.
The Torah that was Given to Moses(AS) is our too, the Zabour given to David(AS) is our too, and the Gospel Given to Jesus(AS) is our too.
If from you bible we take out the "Torah", "Psalms", "Gospel"(if it was present), from among the 66books of the protestant bible 60 remains;
Do some mathematics it is around 10% (and less for the Roman Catholic Bible) of the bible the rest are form other persons, not God almighty, and approved by either King James, Bible Scholars but never by God himself;
Moreover of these "God's word" there exist around 10,000 different copies of whom no 2 of them are identical.
If the bible says that God's word cannot be changed the bible is a contradiction in itself;
Muhammad used the Scriptures so the corruption you speak of had to have happened sometime after Muhammad's death.
Maybe you skipped that Muhammad was unlettered, which means that he neither READ nor WRITES.
But the SCRIPTURES WE HAVE ARE STILL THE SAME as before Muhammad was born.
Even before Muhammad(SAW) was born the bible was modified, Jeremiah 8:8, testifies it(Talking about Laws);
And Jesus refers to Psalmes as Law when he said: "Is it not written in your law I said 'Ye are Gods'";

Muhammad never said they were corrupted and the Bible says in Psalm that God's word is established forever in heaven,
Muhammad(SAW) indeed never said of himself that the bible was modified as he didn't knew what was in the bible;
But God made him say: "Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby."(Quran 2:75,79)
and Jesus said thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
If you did not notice the tense of the phrase, to is in future tense and it is in a prayer asking for the will of God to be done on earth;
If you know the will of God please let me know;
It is what God has allowed us to have for over a 1000 years before Muhammad was born.
Because this book was what the Scribe made with their hands, If you want destruction God almighty will let you destroy yourself;

Peace be upon you;

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Burninglight
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Post #80

Post by Burninglight »

[Replying to post 78 by Asher]"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is not just future, but past, present and future.
Jer. 8:8 has nothing to do with the Bible being corrupted. It is obvious that those who corrupt wouldn't allow a verse in the Bible to condemn themselves. Jer. 8 had to do with writings outside of the Bible in the way they interpret Scripture against God's will. The Scriptures we have today is the same as it was before Muhammad was born. This is easy to prove.

Muslims complain that Catholics worship Mary and still do. I agree with Muslims here; so it is true Mary was worshipped by the Catholics, but she was never worshipped in Biblical Christianity or considered a god; in fact, not even Catholics considered her a god. Nowhere in the Bible will you find it.

The Quranic verse S. 5: 116 and many like it are just reactions to Catholicism and show misconceptions of true Christianity by the way Allah questions Jesus. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" This verse obviously alludes to three (Trinity) Son, Mother and Father with Allah implying himself as third person of the trinity in his conception of Christianity, LOL. It is the only logical inference that can be made.

It is sad to see Muslims equivocate on this issue as they give their explanation by throwing reason, inference and logic out the door by saying Allah didn't explicitly say such and such about the trinity. Islam cannot deny that they believe Gabriel is the Holy Spirit so we know Allah didn't have Him in mind as part of whom he said to desist from saying three about.

IOW, Muhammad and Allah make or made no mention of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity; therefore, Biblical Christianity is not in violation of the trinity described by Allah. Besides, The Jews and the Christians were the first to believe in monotheism; so, what does Islam bring that is new? Christians always believed God is one and there is no one like Him with no partners.

Christianity was the only religion to come up with the virgin birth of Christ Jesus and the concept of heaven and hell. Where did Islam get it from? Finally, Adam was born/created without a biological father and mother to start creation. Adam failed, Jesus is the Last Adam who was victorious. We can only experience victory through Him. It is written, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 3: 23 Ro. 6: 23 and Ro. 10: 9,10. There is no way to earn salvation and paradise. All who have tried ended up in hell a place of fire and torment forever. Hell is a Christless eternity, and it is the total absence of God. Satan is a liar and the father of lies. He is truly the best of deceivers! The art of deception is his.

In short, the god of Islam who preserves the Quran and the God who preserves the Bible cannot be the same God!

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