What do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

[Burninglight]

Can Muslims prove that Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael? If so, can Muslims prove that Ishmael was a prophet. Can Muslims prove that Muhammad meets the requirements of prophet hood; for instance, is he from the right ancestral line; has he performed any miracle or given any prophecy that was fufilled; has he been confirmed by other prophets? Did he know the name of God?

Since the Quran means recitation, should it have been written. Does any Muslim know where one can find an original Quran? Can they prove that the copy of the Quran they have from Uthman's time hasn't been corrupted after he burned the originals and recompiled it? Is there any record that shows Muhammad claimed to even be a prophet during his life time or that any pronounced him one?

[Autodidact]

Kind of like the gospels, which were written down long after Yeshua died? Is there any documentation about Him whatsoever written before He died by Him or by others about Him?

Face it, Christianity makes no more sense, and has no more evidence, than Islam.

What religion were you raised in? What about you, LaaIlahaIllAllah? What religion were you brought up in?[/quote]

There is what was written about Him before He was born (fulfilled Prophecies),

No, there aren't. If there ever was such a guy, which we really don't know for sure, he fulfilled about zero prophecies. Nothing was written about Him before He lived.

and it wasn't long after He rose from the dead; btw

, according to books written long after the events--kind of like the q'uran.

it was hundreds of years closer to the time it records than the Koranic account of Jesus's life.

But not the quranic accounts of Mohammed's life, which is what you're comparing it to.

Christianity doesn't make sense to those that are perishing as written in the Bible: "For the preaching of the cross is to those that are perishing foolishness, but unto us who are being saved, It is the power of God" Yes, we Christians are fools for Christ. Who are you a fool for?

I'm not a fool, thank goodness, and have no interest in becoming one.

I was born and raised Catholic, but I didn't remain that way.

You were raised Christian, and are Christian today. What a unique and original thought process!

I am a product of my past but not its prisoner

. I prefer to use my brain, rather than rely on what I was taught as a child.

I read the Bible and came the the conclusion that the Catholic church has changed the meaning of Scriptures and follows idolatry and they are on a works trip every similar to Islam. They are only better off for believing that Jesus is the son of God which I believe because that is what God said. "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him" Muslim won't hear God or Jesus when it comes to accepting Him for who He is. Jesus said "I AM" God said, "I AM"

This is what God said, according to a book that has no more basis than the q'uran.

Have you ever heard the expression like father like son?

Yes, and?[/quote]

Basically, you are an atheist. Are you not? Therefore, you are at odds with both Christianity and Islam. So how can you answer the question of how Islam trumps Christianity when you see both religions as nonsense.

I'm in a unique position to observe both thought systems from the outside.

Are you trolling?

No, are you?

If a Muslim asked how does Christianity trump Islam you would be giving the same generic responses.

I don't know, and what does it have to do with our debate today?

What are hoping to accomplish?

I'm hoping to debate your question. Does that bother you?

Are you trying to say all theists don't use their brains, and you do and are no fool for anyone.

I'm not trying to say anything. I'm actually saying things.

Have you ever heard the song Bob Dylan sang? "You're gonna have to serve somebody it might be the devil it might be the Lord, but your gonna have to serve somebody." Let me tell you friend who you are not serving, and Muslims would agree, that is if you're an atheist, that you are not serving God!

Of course not, and neither are you, because there is no God. Do you have an argument to defend your position that Christianity is more true than Islam?

BTW, Jesus did fulfill prophecy take a look at Isaiah 53 if you're really interested to start with. If you are trying to say believing in God is nonsense, you will get hammered by both Christians and Muslims. It is really stupid not to believe God exist; again, Muslim will agree! Are you sure you want to continue debating?

Go for it! Hammer me! Give it a shot; that's what we're here for.

But I am not trying to say anything. I'm saying that Christianity is no more true than Islam. It is incumbent on you to show that I'm wrong. Go for it.

Here is a list of messianic prophecies that Jesus did NOT fulfill:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[3]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

[hat tip to the internet and Yid613)

[Autodidact]

There is no match. Muslims say they love Jesus, but who is Jesus to them. He is just an argument for God's onesses and spoke as a baby and what are Muslim in love with?

To them He is a prophet. Can you prove them wrong?

The Jesus of the Quran is a one demensional wimp prophet. They say they honor him, but how? If someone said they wanted to honor me and said things about me that weren't true or describe a person different then my self I wouldn't feel honored. How could they think their one demensionnal description of Jesus is honoring Him or God?

Well of course they think you're saying things about Him that are not true, and describing a person different than Himself. Can you show that they are wrong?

Jesus will receive the reward of His suffereing, every knee will bow and tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of the father.

Now stop and think. Do you really think that quoting the Bible as evidence to a Muslim is going to be effective? Do you find it effective if they quote the qur'an to you? Try again.

The author of the Quran didn't know who Jesus was nor did he understand the concept of the trinity. he Quran claims that to Christians Allah is the 3rd person of the trinity. That is not true

Can you cite the verse you're referring to?

At least is Islam is consistently monotheistic, rather than, like Christianity, claiming to be, while actually espousing polytheism. You have to give Islam credit for accurately calling Christianity out on that one.

[Burninglight]

There is no match. Muslims say they love Jesus, but who is Jesus to them. He is just an argument for God's onesses and spoke as a baby and what are Muslim in love with?

To them He is a prophet. Can you prove them wrong?

The Jesus of the Quran is a one demensional wimp prophet. They say they honor him, but how? If someone said they wanted to honor me and said things about me that weren't true or describe a person different then my self I wouldn't feel honored. How could they think their one demensionnal description of Jesus is honoring Him or God?

Well of course they think you're saying things about Him that are not true, and describing a person different than Himself. Can you show that they are wrong?

Jesus will receive the reward of His suffereing, every knee will bow and tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of the father.

Now stop and think. Do you really think that quoting the Bible as evidence to a Muslim is going to be effective? Do you find it effective if they quote the qur'an to you? Try again.

The author of the Quran didn't know who Jesus was nor did he understand the concept of the trinity. he Quran claims that to Christians Allah is the 3rd person of the trinity. That is not true

Can you cite the verse you're referring to?

At least is Islam is consistently monotheistic, rather than, like Christianity, claiming to be, while actually espousing polytheism. You have to give Islam credit for accurately calling Christianity out on that one.

I am going to answer u with the thought that a Muslim might be reading otherwise I wouldn't respond bc both Christians and Muslims see atheism as total foolishness & I don't even understand why you care about an Abrahamic family dispute over Isaac and Ishmael.

First of all, there is unequivocal proof in the Bible to where Ishmael was reject as the child of promise. Since Muslim claim Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael that proves him an unconfirmed prophet. We can find that in the Torah in Gen 21:12 other places as well in Genesis.

Secondly, Muslims should care about what was written in the Bible, because Allah send them the Torah and the gospel. In the hadith, we find that Muhammad lived by it. Muhammad never said the Torah and gospels were corrupted. Allah santified it for all Muslims. Besides, the Scriptures that came before need to confirm prophets that come after.

That is the way things are done when it comes to the Abrahamic faiths. Which you obviously don't understand or didn't know or you wouldn't be asking these questions. Additionally, The Quran should have confirmed the Bible but it usurps it. That could be bc it is a fact that Uthman a non prophet burned the original Qurans and recompiled it after Muhammad's death and Islam took on a life of its own. Besides there was never a divine mandate given to write the Quran; it means recitation. Just how does one get write out of say?

Quoting the Biblical SCRIPTURES to Muslims is more powerful than them quoting the Quran to Christians, bc The Bible is the Scriptures that came before as referenced and confirmed by the Quran. IOW, Muslims are commanded to read the Scriptures the Torah and the gospels, but Christians are not commanded to read the Quran. Moreover, the Bible is the true word of God. It is not corrupted like modern Muslims say today. Muhammad never explicitly said they were in any way shape or form.

Finally, Muhammad never brought anything new; people worship Allah as the moon god before he arrived on the seen and he got his idea of monotheism from the Jews and Christians. Christianity has the purest form of monotheism on the face of this globe.
Even Muhammad once gave a prophecy of Allah's three goddess daughters known has the "Flying cranes whose intercession was hoped for." That fits in the category of polytheism.
Muhammad recanted of this prophecy, but no other prophet made a mistake like that. If they did, they would have been stoned. Why don't you research that? The story of Muhammad's prophecy and Allah's 3 daughters. Muslims cannot handle this story, and they deny it, but it is confirmed by early Islamic sources!
I hope that answer your questions.
TC

[Autodidact]

There is no match. Muslims say they love Jesus, but who is Jesus to them. He is just an argument for God's onesses and spoke as a baby and what are Muslim in love with?

To them He is a prophet. Can you prove them wrong?

The Jesus of the Quran is a one demensional wimp prophet. They say they honor him, but how? If someone said they wanted to honor me and said things about me that weren't true or describe a person different then my self I wouldn't feel honored. How could they think their one demensionnal description of Jesus is honoring Him or God?

Well of course they think you're saying things about Him that are not true, and describing a person different than Himself. Can you show that they are wrong?

Jesus will receive the reward of His suffereing, every knee will bow and tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of the father.

Now stop and think. Do you really think that quoting the Bible as evidence to a Muslim is going to be effective? Do you find it effective if they quote the qur'an to you? Try again.

The author of the Quran didn't know who Jesus was nor did he understand the concept of the trinity. he Quran claims that to Christians Allah is the 3rd person of the trinity. That is not true

Can you cite the verse you're referring to?

At least is Islam is consistently monotheistic, rather than, like Christianity, claiming to be, while actually espousing polytheism. You have to give Islam credit for accurately calling Christianity out on that one.[/quote]I am going to answer u with the thought that a Muslim might be reading otherwise I wouldn't respond bc both Christians and Muslims see atheism as total foolishness & I don't even understand why you care about an Abrahamic family dispute over Isaac and Ishmael.

First of all, there is unequivocal proof in the Bible to where Ishmael was reject as the child of promise. Since Muslim claim Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael that proves him an unconfirmed prophet. We can find that in the Torah in Gen 21:12 other places as well in Genesis.

You don't seem to grasp that you cannot use the Bible to disprove Islam, any more than a Muslim can use the qur'an to disprove Christianity. Both books have the same evidentiary support and reliability.

Secondly, Muslims should care about what was written in the Bible, because Allah send them the Torah and the gospel. In the hadith, we find that Muhammad lived by it. Muhammad never said the Torah and gospels were corrupted. Allah santified it for all Muslims. Besides, the Scriptures that came before need to confirm prophets that come after.

In that case you have serious problems, because the NT is not consistent with Torah. So you have succeeded in disproving Christianity.

Either you go with the first scriptures, Torah, and Christianity is wrong, or you accept new scripture, the qur'an. Either way you have problems; pick one.

That is the way things are done when it comes to the Abrahamic faiths. Which you obviously don't understand or didn't know or you wouldn't be asking these questions. Additionally, The Quran should have confirmed the Bible but it usurps it. That could be bc it is a fact that Uthman a non prophet burned the original Qurans and recompiled it after Muhammad's death and Islam took on a life of its own. Besides there was never a divine mandate given to write the Quran; it means recitation. Just how does one get write out of say?

Often when someone disagrees with you, it may mean they know more than you rather than less. I assure you that I have more experience and knowledge about all three faiths than you do. Why should the qur'an confirm the Bible? Does the NT confirm the Torah? Do you eat ribs and shrimp? Do you perform animal sacrifices? The qur'an is more consistent with the Torah than Christianity; it least it's monotheistic.

As for the rest, the history of the NT is no better than that of the qur'an, probably worse. YOu don't even know who wrote it down, or when.

Quoting the Biblical SCRIPTURES to Muslims is more powerful than them quoting the Quran to Christians, bc The Bible is the Scriptures that came before as referenced and confirmed by the Quran. IOW, Muslims are commanded to read the Scriptures the Torah and the gospels, but Christians are not commanded to read the Quran. Moreover, the Bible is the true word of God. It is not corrupted like modern Muslims say today. Muhammad never explicitly said they were in any way shape or form.

So you say. Now present an argument that this is so. Obviously, Muslims believe the qur'an is the true word of God. Show that they are wrong and you're right.

Finally, Muhammad never brought anything new; people worship Allah as the moon god before he arrived on the seen and he got his idea of monotheism from the Jews and Christians. Christianity has the purest form of monotheism on the face of this globe.

If by "monotheistic" you mean "worships more than one God" then yes. The most basic concept in Judaism, and the Torah, is that God is one and one only, and does not have any wives or children. A God who has a Son is not the true God. Christianity throws that out the window, and so violates Torah, the previous scripture.

Even Muhammad once gave a prophecy of Allah's three goddess daughters known has the "Flying cranes whose intercession was hoped for." That fits in the category of polytheism.

Please cite any polytheistic passages in the qur'an.

Muhammad recanted of this prophecy, but no other prophet made a mistake like that. If they did, they would have been stoned. Why don't you research that? The story of Muhammad's prophecy and Allah's 3 daughters. Muslims cannot handle this story, and they deny it, but it is confirmed by early Islamic sources!
I hope that answer your questions.
TC

I don't have questions in the sense that I need information from you, I'm debating with you. YOu are trying to show us that the Bible is more reliable, more scriptural than the qur'an. So far you have presented only the Bible in defense of the Bible, a circular argument. You also ask for a rule to be applied to the qur'an that you do not apply to the NT, special pleading. Both of these are fallacies. Do you have any non-fallacious arguments to show that the NT is more reliable and true than the qur'an?

[Burninglight]

Why do you care? You don't believe either of them either way. How could you not believe God exists? If you can prove that to me, than the rest of the question you ask are all moot.

[Suluby]

What do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

Wouldn't the better question be WHY do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

I would ask why Christians have to trump every other religion? Why do Christians have to demean and denigrate all the other belief systems? Does Christianity need that kind of behavior to build itself up for Christians?

[Burninglight]

What do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

Wouldn't the better question be WHY do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

I would ask why Christians have to trump every other religion? Why do Christians have to demean and denigrate all the other belief systems? Does Christianity need that kind of behavior to build itself up for Christians?

An even better question still is why does truth have to trump lies? For some people, unfortunately, the lies trump the truth they could have had and they are lost.

If saying the truth demeans; then, I say let it. If demeaning someone's religious lie wakes that person up to truth, he will bless you, but if you demean this lie, and it doesn't wake someone to truth, he will not curse you in the end! But, if you know someone is living a lie that will damn them forever and you do nothing to try, you will be cursed by that person in the end.

What do you mean by demean? I don't believe in demeaning the person, but I pull no punches when it comes to beliefs. If you demean my faith, I don't take it personally; others need to learn to do the same. I don't need to defend my God's character. He can defend His honor and glory without my help. Others might take it it personally and try to defend their god, because their deceptive god can't stand up to truth without their help!

[Suluby]

What do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

Wouldn't the better question be WHY do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

I would ask why Christians have to trump every other religion? Why do Christians have to demean and denigrate all the other belief systems? Does Christianity need that kind of behavior to build itself up for Christians?

An even better question still is why does truth have to trump lies? For some people, unfortunately, the lies trump the truth they could have had and they are lost.

Ah .... so prove to me that Christianity IS the truth ..... and all other religions cannot be true at all. Now you must realize that "because I believe it is" is a most unsatisfactory answer, because there are many who believe it is not and they are just as sincere as I presume you to be.

Pointing to Christian scripture and saying "the Christian bible is true because the Christian bible says it is true" is circular reasoning at its finest.

If saying the truth demeans; then, I say let it. If demeaning someone's religious lie wakes that person up to truth, he will bless you, but if you demean this lie, and it doesn't wake someone to truth, he will not curse you in the end! But, if you know someone is living a lie that will damn them forever and you do nothing to try, you will be cursed by that person in the end.

Okay ..... Prove that your religion is "THE TRUTH" and everyone else's beliefs are lies. Concrete, verifiable proof that only Christianity is true and every other belief system is nothing more than a pack of lies.

What do you mean by demean? I don't believe in demeaning the person, but I pull no punches when it comes to beliefs. If you demean my faith, I don't take it personally; others need to learn to do the same. I don't need to defend my God's character. He can defend His honor and glory without my help. Others might take it it personally and try to defend their god, because their deceptive god can't stand up to truth without their help!

Oh. So if I was to say that your Jesus was nothing but a fraud and a liar, a false messiah ..... that as an supposedly educated Jew, he would know what was expected of the messiah and he would know that he could never fulfill those expectations, so he just invented the whole "I'll do that stuff the next time I come back" thing ...... it wouldn't bother you at all? You would have no response at all? Yeah ..... sure. I don't believe you.

Calling someone else's deeply held religious beliefs a pack of lies ...... and calling the god they worship a deceptive god and calling them fools ..... that's what I consider demeaning people and their beliefs.

And, yes, it seems like you manage to demean everyone else and put down their beliefs in order to build up your own ..... as if your beliefs aren't good enough for you by themselves ...... but that their prime value is in being used as a stick with which you can beat up on everybody else.

I'd be more disposed to believe you had a bit of a handle on the truth if you weren't so eager to declare yourself the winner, and had more generosity of spirit, and forgiveness and love for your fellow human beings.

But I don't see much of that at all.

[Burninglight]

What do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

Wouldn't the better question be WHY do Muslims have to trump Christianity?

I would ask why Christians have to trump every other religion? Why do Christians have to demean and denigrate all the other belief systems? Does Christianity need that kind of behavior to build itself up for Christians?

An even better question still is why does truth have to trump lies? For some people, unfortunately, the lies trump the truth they could have had and they are lost.

Ah .... so prove to me that Christianity IS the truth ..... and all other religions cannot be true at all. Now you must realize that "because I believe it is" is a most unsatisfactory answer, because there are many who believe it is not and they are just as sincere as I presume you to be.

Pointing to Christian scripture and saying "the Christian bible is true because the Christian bible says it is true" is circular reasoning at its finest.

If saying the truth demeans; then, I say let it. If demeaning someone's religious lie wakes that person up to truth, he will bless you, but if you demean this lie, and it doesn't wake someone to truth, he will not curse you in the end! But, if you know someone is living a lie that will damn them forever and you do nothing to try, you will be cursed by that person in the end.

Okay ..... Prove that your religion is "THE TRUTH" and everyone else's beliefs are lies. Concrete, verifiable proof that only Christianity is true and every other belief system is nothing more than a pack of lies.

What do you mean by demean? I don't believe in demeaning the person, but I pull no punches when it comes to beliefs. If you demean my faith, I don't take it personally; others need to learn to do the same. I don't need to defend my God's character. He can defend His honor and glory without my help. Others might take it it personally and try to defend their god, because their deceptive god can't stand up to truth without their help!

Oh. So if I was to say that your Jesus was nothing but a fraud and a liar, a false messiah ..... that as an supposedly educated Jew, he would know what was expected of the messiah and he would know that he could never fulfill those expectations, so he just invented the whole "I'll do that stuff the next time I come back" thing ...... it wouldn't bother you at all? You would have no response at all? Yeah ..... sure. I don't believe you.

Calling someone else's deeply held religious beliefs a pack of lies ...... and calling the god they worship a deceptive god and calling them fools ..... that's what I consider demeaning people and their beliefs.

And, yes, it seems like you manage to demean everyone else and put down their beliefs in order to build up your own ..... as if your beliefs aren't good enough for you by themselves ...... but that their prime value is in being used as a stick with which you can beat up on everybody else.

I'd be more disposed to believe you had a bit of a handle on the truth if you weren't so eager to declare yourself the winner, and had more generosity of spirit, and forgiveness and love for your fellow human beings.

But I don't see much of that at all.

Here is one of your posts I didn't respond to. You accused me of calling someone a fool. Who did I call a fool? Don't lie about what I say. It doesn't bother me if you call Jesus all the names you want. I don't need to defend Jesus, He can do that Himself, and I don't care if you believe me or not. Well, that isn't totally true. I hope you do believe me, but there isn't anything I can do about it if you don't except pray for you.

I have attack no one's person or character on this forum, but I have attacked untruth. There is a difference when someone says you are a fool, and when they say, what you believe is foolish.

What forgiveness do I need to have? I forgive you for misrepresenting what I said. I forgive Muslims for calling me the fool. So I am a fool for Jesus Christ. Who are you a fool for; who are they a fool for?

It occurred to me that I might not have a chance to speak to Muslims on this forum tomorrow. They might not be here or I might not be. I will continue to call a spade a spade. If the truth hurts let it. I can only hope the truth will be realized.

What good is believing damnation and judgment. Who says I have the best religion? Jesus does! Jesus is the best. All other faiths may be good, but good is always the enemy of what is best!
I make my boast in the Lord, not in myself!

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

It doesn't bother me if you call Jesus all the names you want. I don't need to defend Jesus, He can do that Himself

Heh. What a fabulous attitude. Now why can’t muslims do the same thing with Muhammad? Surely allah can protect Muhammad’s good name if people sling abuse at him?