Proselytizing

[rreppy]

No Buddhist monk has ever come to my door on a Sunday morning and confronted me about whether or not I was "saved". I like that. I feel if you are confident that your religion is worthwhile, then you should have faith that people will find it and be convinced on its own merits, without the need of a bunch of pushy salespersons trying to "close a deal".
I admire the fact that the Dalai Lama, in almost every speech he makes to westerners, exhorts them to stay in the religion of their upbringing and merely explore whether Buddhism might have some tools and insights they may find useful. I could never imagine in a million years the Dalai Lama doing what Christian missionaries have done, going into foreign cultures and blasting their native religions as lies and blasphemies, destroying their works of art, burning their books, and telling them tales about how they will "burn in torment forever" if they don't convert.
Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".
I say, let a person find their own path and make up their own mind. Don't insult me by calling my beliefs inferior to your own and then shoving yours down my throat. A worthy religion shouldn't have to proselytize. Don't demean spirituality to the level of a popularity contest.

[1robin]

Just for clarification, let me say I may have used the term messiah incorrectly. None of these details are really all that important to me either. The only question that needs an answer is not even if Christ is God, it is is he necessary for salvation.

This is one of the points upon which Judaism and Christianity differ, and which make them wholly different, though related, religions. "Salvation" in the Christian sense -- that is, of going to Heaven -- is not a Jewish concern. It's not a secondary concern or a peripheral concern; it is not a concern at all. We have no formal teaching on an Afterlife, and we leave all such matters to God. We speculate upon the question like anyone else, but we have no doctrine or dogma, and conclusions are very much up to the individual. One thing is certain; in Jewish belief, one's "beliefs," aka thoughts, could never be grounds for either reward or condemnation. We believe that peole shall be judged on their actions, not their thoughts or beliefs. "Salvation by faith" is wholly absent from Jewish tradition and teaching, Paul's claims notwithstanding.

I have answered that question personally and I was born again which confirms the fact for me. I understand some of the controvercies surrounding things like Isaiah, while I can see why jews believe what they do I do not agree. I will not bother with trying to talk a jewish person out of his interpretations as I am not qualified...

And I, for one -- and very few, if any, Jews that I know -- would try to talk you out of your own beliefs. I have said this many times; we Jews claim only to know how God spoke to US, in the language of our tradition. If He chose to speak to other peoples in some other fashion, that is none of our business. We have no warrant to say that He did not.

...I do however have a general concern for the consequences for them.

If you mean Hell, rest easy. If there is a Hell -- few Jews believe that there is; it does not appear in our Bible -- the Old Covenant is still in place, and Jews obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentance, and deeds of lovingkindness. I should add, though, that in our belief there are sins which even God has no power to forgive. Sins against other people must be forgiven by those we have sinned against or not at all. On the other hand, we have no teaching on what the consequences of unforgiven sins might be, either. That, too, we leave to God's perfect justice, whatever it may be, and we do not feel qualified to speak for Him.

Ok. I have no point of contention with your take of your worldview so I will make no further comment.

[1robin]

Jeremiah was never speaking of Jesus; Muhammad yes. Jesus has already fufilled over 300 prophecies, but yes, not all of them. He will though every single one will be fufilled!

That's the claim. However, when you look at each prophecy in context, in a historical and cultural context.. then.. well, no.. .Jesus didn't full fill ANY.

Some prophecies were written TO. Others.. well, they are not prophecies, but phrases taken out of context.. shoe horned into place, and mistranslated.

For example.. Isaiah 7:14, used to say that Jesus was predicted to have a "Virgin Birth' Alamah means 'Young woman', and if you read Isiaiah 7 /8 IN CONTEXT, it shows that Isaiah was writing about his own wife and son being a sign to King Ahaz.


And, if you read it in context, the 'suffering servant' in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus, but the nation of Israel.

We can go out to show how the 'prophecy' 'Out of Bethlehem' was showing that the Messiah would be from a tribe, not a city... (specifically from the House of David", and since that follows the MALE line, not the woman's line, that would eliminate Jesus, since the bloodline follows the biological father, and Joseph was allegedly not Jesus' father.

We could go on and on about that, and see, well, no, Jesus didn't full fill any of the prophecies.

I have never heard the argument that Jesus did not fulfill even one of the three hundred prophecy's made by a person of any race, creed, faith, or philosophy. Your audacity is only exceeded in scope by the size of the task required to defend it. If I was to argue against Christianity this would be about the last method I would employ.

[cnorman18]

Jeremiah was never speaking of Jesus; Muhammad yes. Jesus has already fufilled over 300 prophecies, but yes, not all of them. He will though every single one will be fufilled!

That's the claim. However, when you look at each prophecy in context, in a historical and cultural context.. then.. well, no.. .Jesus didn't full fill ANY.

Some prophecies were written TO. Others.. well, they are not prophecies, but phrases taken out of context.. shoe horned into place, and mistranslated.

For example.. Isaiah 7:14, used to say that Jesus was predicted to have a "Virgin Birth' Alamah means 'Young woman', and if you read Isiaiah 7 /8 IN CONTEXT, it shows that Isaiah was writing about his own wife and son being a sign to King Ahaz.


And, if you read it in context, the 'suffering servant' in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus, but the nation of Israel.

We can go out to show how the 'prophecy' 'Out of Bethlehem' was showing that the Messiah would be from a tribe, not a city... (specifically from the House of David", and since that follows the MALE line, not the woman's line, that would eliminate Jesus, since the bloodline follows the biological father, and Joseph was allegedly not Jesus' father.

We could go on and on about that, and see, well, no, Jesus didn't full fill any of the prophecies.

I have never heard the argument that Jesus did not fulfill even one of the three hundred prophecy's made by a person of any race, creed, faith, or philosophy. Your audacity is only exceeded in scope by the size of the task required to defend it. If I was to argue against Christianity this would be about the last method I would employ.

Goat can speak for himself, but I don't see any arguments "against Christianity" here. These are arguments that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, which is quite another thing. "Prophecies" are of no importance in the identification of the Messiah; that would be defined by performance, not by prophecy. The Messianic Age has not come; therefore, neither has the Messiah. For Jews, the debate ends there, and there is no gainsaying it.

That is NOT to say that Christians may not believe in the Christ, or that Christianity is a "false religion" or anything like it. "Christ" and "Messiah" are two separate and distinct offices, and Christianity and Judaism are separate and distinct religions. Christians should live and be well and believe what they choose -- and allow us Jews the same courtesy.

[Burninglight]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

[cnorman18]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

Maybe you should. V. 10: "He shall see his offspring and prolong his days."

Jesus had no children, and his days after the alleged Resurrection, if memory serves, were 40. Ergo, this passage was not about Jesus.

In any case, I have always said that Christians may read the Hebrew Bible as they choose -- but they have no right to tell us Jews how WE should read it. It was, after all, OUR book before it was theirs.

Peace to you; believe as you like, and I have no argument with you. I don't tell you how to believe, and I won't have others dictate my beliefs to me, either.

[Burninglight]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

Maybe you should. V. 10: "He shall see his offspring and prolong his days."

Jesus had no children, and his days after the alleged Resurrection, if memory serves, were 40. Ergo, this passage was not about Jesus.

In any case, I have always said that Christians may read the Hebrew Bible as they choose -- but they have no right to tell us Jews how WE should read it. It was, after all, OUR book before it was theirs.

Peace to you; believe as you like, and I have no argument with you. I don't tell you how to believe, and I won't have others dictate my beliefs to me, either.

Peace be unto to you as well. I have no argument with you either. You pointed out Isaiah 53 v 10, and it confused me for a while, but I prayed about it. The Lord showed me it makes perfect sense that all of it is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the culmination of Israel. According to Scriptures, He is the total spiritual sum of all things. BTW, remember the Scriptures (NT) say, "He is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but one inwardly, when you have the living Christ indwelling in you. I have that.

The whole Bible points to Jesus. Even Moses did, for instance, when the children of Israel thirsted in the wilderness. God told Moses to hit the rock. Jesus is the rock of our salvation, well, for some of us who want Him to be. Latter on they thirsted again. God told Moses to speak to the rock, but he didn't. God got angry with him. Moses didn't know it at the time, but that meant once Christ has been smitten like mentioned in Is 53, there is no need for him to be smitten anymore, just speak to the rock (the chief corner stone the builders rejected is now the head corner stone stated in Scripture) speak means pray to the rock. Pray to Christ to receive salvation & rivers of living water.

Another time Moses points to Jesus is when the Children of Israel complained against God and Moses and were bitten by poisonous vipers. Those that looked at the serpent on the pole lifted up by Moses were healed. That represents Christ who became a curse and sin for us. When we behold Him, we are healed.

There is the Passover. The lamb's blood placed on the door posts, and the death angel passes that house by. Jesus is the lamb of God according to Scripture. When we have His blood apply to our hearts the angel that claims for death and hell will pass us by. Jesus said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock; if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come and sup with him and he with me Rev 3: 20.

You are free to believe as you wish. We are all free to believe & choose as we wish, but not free from the consequences of our choices. I would read Isaish 53 again and meditate and pray about it very carefully to hear from God about it and not our own mind. It is written, "There is away that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death. Jesus is a stumbling block to many. He is my King!
PBUY

[1robin]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

Maybe you should. V. 10: "He shall see his offspring and prolong his days."

Jesus had no children, and his days after the alleged Resurrection, if memory serves, were 40. Ergo, this passage was not about Jesus.

In any case, I have always said that Christians may read the Hebrew Bible as they choose -- but they have no right to tell us Jews how WE should read it. It was, after all, OUR book before it was theirs.

Peace to you; believe as you like, and I have no argument with you. I don't tell you how to believe, and I won't have others dictate my beliefs to me, either.

I have made no hard and fast claim or stance about this isuue but I have ran across some things that might be apllicable.

The offspring are all the Christians that have been adopted into the family of God.

The prolonged days are not earthly natural days. He will exist forever.

For what it is worth.

[cnorman18]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

Maybe you should. V. 10: "He shall see his offspring and prolong his days."

Jesus had no children, and his days after the alleged Resurrection, if memory serves, were 40. Ergo, this passage was not about Jesus.

In any case, I have always said that Christians may read the Hebrew Bible as they choose -- but they have no right to tell us Jews how WE should read it. It was, after all, OUR book before it was theirs.

Peace to you; believe as you like, and I have no argument with you. I don't tell you how to believe, and I won't have others dictate my beliefs to me, either.

I have made no hard and fast claim or stance about this isuue but I have ran across some things that might be apllicable.

The offspring are all the Christians that have been adopted into the family of God.

The prolonged days are not earthly natural days. He will exist forever.

For what it is worth.

Yes, I've seen that before; parts of Isaiah 53 are to be read literally, and parts are to be read symbolically or metaphorically, according to what is convenient for one's argument. The same is true for many other supposed "prophecies" of Jesus. As I have said so many times; if you want to read the Hebrew Bible in this fashion, it's fine with me. But please don't waste your time trying to convince Jews that we, too, must or should read it that way. We don't, and we don't have to, and we won't.

There are a great many more problems with the assertion that Jesus was the Messiah than differences in interpreting a few convoluted and cherrypicked passages of Scripture. As I said, the very concepts of "Messiah" and "Christ" are two very different and mutually exclusive things.

I'm sorry, but this sort of thing does not interest Jews who are familiar with the teachings and traditions of our own religion. These are Christian ideas, not Jewish ones. Take a look at the thread to which I referred you earlier. I don't care to go through all the same material again.

[cnorman18]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

Maybe you should. V. 10: "He shall see his offspring and prolong his days."

Jesus had no children, and his days after the alleged Resurrection, if memory serves, were 40. Ergo, this passage was not about Jesus.

In any case, I have always said that Christians may read the Hebrew Bible as they choose -- but they have no right to tell us Jews how WE should read it. It was, after all, OUR book before it was theirs.

Peace to you; believe as you like, and I have no argument with you. I don't tell you how to believe, and I won't have others dictate my beliefs to me, either.

Peace be unto to you as well. I have no argument with you either. You pointed out Isaiah 53 v 10, and it confused me for a while, but I prayed about it. The Lord showed me it makes perfect sense that all of it is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the culmination of Israel. According to Scriptures, He is the total spiritual sum of all things. BTW, remember the Scriptures (NT) say, "He is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but one inwardly, when you have the living Christ indwelling in you. I have that.

The whole Bible points to Jesus. Even Moses did, for instance, when the children of Israel thirsted in the wilderness. God told Moses to hit the rock. Jesus is the rock of our salvation, well, for some of us who want Him to be. Latter on they thirsted again. God told Moses to speak to the rock, but he didn't. God got angry with him. Moses didn't know it at the time, but that meant once Christ has been smitten like mentioned in Is 53, there is no need for him to be smitten anymore, just speak to the rock (the chief corner stone the builders rejected is now the head corner stone stated in Scripture) speak means pray to the rock. Pray to Christ to receive salvation & rivers of living water.

Another time Moses points to Jesus is when the Children of Israel complained against God and Moses and were bitten by poisonous vipers. Those that looked at the serpent on the pole lifted up by Moses were healed. That represents Christ who became a curse and sin for us. When we behold Him, we are healed.

There is the Passover. The lamb's blood placed on the door posts, and the death angel passes that house by. Jesus is the lamb of God according to Scripture. When we have His blood apply to our hearts the angel that claims for death and hell will pass us by. Jesus said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock; if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come and sup with him and he with me Rev 3: 20.

You are free to believe as you wish. We are all free to believe & choose as we wish, but not free from the consequences of our choices. I would read Isaish 53 again and meditate and pray about it very carefully to hear from God about it and not our own mind. It is written, "There is away that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death. Jesus is a stumbling block to many. He is my King!
PBUY

See my last post above. Sorry, but your implicit threat of Hell doesn't impress me either; you see, Hell is just another Christian idea, like so many other Christian ideas that Christians claim were originally Jewish.

Believe what you like, but don't pretend you got all of your ideas from the Jewish religion. You didn't, because we're still here, and we get to define what Judaism is and teaches. You don't.

[Burninglight]

Isaiah 53 was not talking of Israel. Jesus fufilled that prophecy and so much more.
Read it carefully.

Maybe you should. V. 10: "He shall see his offspring and prolong his days."

Jesus had no children, and his days after the alleged Resurrection, if memory serves, were 40. Ergo, this passage was not about Jesus.

In any case, I have always said that Christians may read the Hebrew Bible as they choose -- but they have no right to tell us Jews how WE should read it. It was, after all, OUR book before it was theirs.

Peace to you; believe as you like, and I have no argument with you. I don't tell you how to believe, and I won't have others dictate my beliefs to me, either.

Peace be unto to you as well. I have no argument with you either. You pointed out Isaiah 53 v 10, and it confused me for a while, but I prayed about it. The Lord showed me it makes perfect sense that all of it is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the culmination of Israel. According to Scriptures, He is the total spiritual sum of all things. BTW, remember the Scriptures (NT) say, "He is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but one inwardly, when you have the living Christ indwelling in you. I have that.

The whole Bible points to Jesus. Even Moses did, for instance, when the children of Israel thirsted in the wilderness. God told Moses to hit the rock. Jesus is the rock of our salvation, well, for some of us who want Him to be. Latter on they thirsted again. God told Moses to speak to the rock, but he didn't. God got angry with him. Moses didn't know it at the time, but that meant once Christ has been smitten like mentioned in Is 53, there is no need for him to be smitten anymore, just speak to the rock (the chief corner stone the builders rejected is now the head corner stone stated in Scripture) speak means pray to the rock. Pray to Christ to receive salvation & rivers of living water.

Another time Moses points to Jesus is when the Children of Israel complained against God and Moses and were bitten by poisonous vipers. Those that looked at the serpent on the pole lifted up by Moses were healed. That represents Christ who became a curse and sin for us. When we behold Him, we are healed.

There is the Passover. The lamb's blood placed on the door posts, and the death angel passes that house by. Jesus is the lamb of God according to Scripture. When we have His blood apply to our hearts the angel that claims for death and hell will pass us by. Jesus said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock; if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come and sup with him and he with me Rev 3: 20.

You are free to believe as you wish. We are all free to believe & choose as we wish, but not free from the consequences of our choices. I would read Isaish 53 again and meditate and pray about it very carefully to hear from God about it and not our own mind. It is written, "There is away that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death. Jesus is a stumbling block to many. He is my King!
PBUY

See my last post above. Sorry, but your implicit threat of Hell doesn't impress me either; you see, Hell is just another Christian idea, like so many other Christian ideas that Christians claim were originally Jewish.

Believe what you like, but don't pretend you got all of your ideas from the Jewish religion. You didn't, because we're still here, and we get to define what Judaism is and teaches. You don't.

I understand, but I do have a Jewish friend that converted to Chrisitanity. BTW, Jesus spoke of hell just as much as heaven. Christians don't really identify with Judaism any more than they do with Islam. But if it weren't for Judaism there'd be no Christianity.