Proselytizing

[rreppy]

No Buddhist monk has ever come to my door on a Sunday morning and confronted me about whether or not I was "saved". I like that. I feel if you are confident that your religion is worthwhile, then you should have faith that people will find it and be convinced on its own merits, without the need of a bunch of pushy salespersons trying to "close a deal".
I admire the fact that the Dalai Lama, in almost every speech he makes to westerners, exhorts them to stay in the religion of their upbringing and merely explore whether Buddhism might have some tools and insights they may find useful. I could never imagine in a million years the Dalai Lama doing what Christian missionaries have done, going into foreign cultures and blasting their native religions as lies and blasphemies, destroying their works of art, burning their books, and telling them tales about how they will "burn in torment forever" if they don't convert.
Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".
I say, let a person find their own path and make up their own mind. Don't insult me by calling my beliefs inferior to your own and then shoving yours down my throat. A worthy religion shouldn't have to proselytize. Don't demean spirituality to the level of a popularity contest.

[cnorman18]

I understand, but I do have a Jewish friend that converted to Chrisitanity.

Which means nothing, of course. I myself am a former Methodist minister who converted to Judaism.

BTW, Jesus spoke of hell just as much as heaven.

So what? Hell still isn't a Jewish concept. Never was.

Christians don't really identify with Judaism any more than they do with Islam.

I'm sure that's generally true, but we DO get a lot of Christians on here who insist that Christianity is the successor and replacement for Judaism because God is done with the Jews and the old Covenant is no longer in effect; and that Jews must believe in Jesus if they want to "fulfill" their Judaism and "complete" it, not to mention if they want to avoid Hell. Those ideas are both insulting and offensive to Jews, and saying "But they're true!" doesn't help.

But if it weren't for Judaism there'd be no Christianity.

We have an historical connection, but we have long since become two separate and virtually unrelated religions; the beliefs, the goals, and the very point of existence of our religions are very different, and this has been true for centuries.

[Burninglight]

I understand, but I do have a Jewish friend that converted to Chrisitanity.

Which means nothing, of course. I myself am a former Methodist minister who converted to Judaism.

BTW, Jesus spoke of hell just as much as heaven.

So what? Hell still isn't a Jewish concept. Never was.

Christians don't really identify with Judaism any more than they do with Islam.

I'm sure that's generally true, but we DO get a lot of Christians on here who insist that Christianity is the successor and replacement for Judaism because God is done with the Jews and the old Covenant is no longer in effect; and that Jews must believe in Jesus if they want to "fulfill" their Judaism and "complete" it, not to mention if they want to avoid Hell. Those ideas are both insulting and offensive to Jews, and saying "But they're true!" doesn't help.

But if it weren't for Judaism there'd be no Christianity.

We have an historical connection, but we have long since become two separate and virtually unrelated religions; the beliefs, the goals, and the very point of existence of our religions are very different, and this has been true for centuries.

I understand, but you guys don't even recognize Jesus as a prophet let alone the son of God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all claiming common bonds with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I find it supernaturally confounding that the Jews don't recognize Jesus in any way as a God sent; it is surreal. I can tell you that I agree that these three religions are distinct, but neither one of them can claim a monopoly on the God of Abraham. What started with the Jews will finish with them. According to the NT Bible, God has blinded the Jews for the time of the gentiles. According to the Bible in Daniel the anti Christ will arise understanding dark sentences, and he will set up the daily sacrifices and make a covenant with the people for 7 years, there will be peace. This leader will be political and many will think he is Christ, but he'll really be Satan incarnated. All he can do is copy God's ideas for deceptive purposes.
BTW, in Judaism, where to the wicked go if there is no concept of hell, and how did you come to change from Christian to Judaism? That blows my mind! You don't have to share that if not comfortable.

[cnorman18]

I understand, but you guys don't even recognize Jesus as a prophet let alone the son of God.

That is correct. Jesus was an ordinary man. He may have been a reform-minded rabbi, opposed to the massive corruption and injustice of the Temple hierarchy's collaboration with the Roman conquerors, but little can be known at this late date about his actual views. It's clear that the Gospels were very heavily influenced by the thought of Paul, whose letters predate them, and it seems probable that a very great many words were put in his mouth long after his death.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all claiming common bonds with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Well, Christianity and Islam may claim what they like, but Judaism and the Jewish people do not have a "common bond" with the Patriarchs; we are descended directly from them in a religious sense, and very often in a genealogical one.

I find it supernaturally confounding that the Jews don't recognize Jesus in any way as a God sent; it is surreal.

I personally think that Jesus was probably sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles; the Jews will always be a small people, and there must be SOME way for the rest of mankind to have some knowledge, some light, from the One God. What is certain, though, is that Jesus was not sent to US. Peace to Christians who believe otherwise, but we needed and need no Savior -- which is, again, a totally different concept than that of "Messiah."

I can tell you that I agree that these three religions are distinct, but neither one of them can claim a monopoly on the God of Abraham. What started with the Jews will finish with them. According to the NT Bible, God has blinded the Jews for the time of the gentiles. According to the Bible in Daniel the anti Christ will arise understanding dark sentences, and he will set up the daily sacrifices and make a covenant with the people for 7 years, there will be peace. This leader will be political and many will think he is Christ, but he'll really be Satan incarnated. All he can do is copy God's ideas for deceptive purposes.

Jews, as a rule, express no opinion on the truth or falsity of other religions; we reject a religion as false only on the ground of literal idolatry, the worship of an image as an actual God. Otherwise, we have nothing to say other than "That religion may or may not be true, but it is not our own."

In other words, believe what you like about all that. I will not argue, and it is of no interest to me.

BTW, in Judaism, where to the wicked go if there is no concept of hell...

We do not presume to know. That is for God, the true Judge, to know, and we leave the matter of what happens after death to Him in EVERY case, not just that of the wicked. Judaism has no formal teaching on the Afterlife, either.

...and how did you come to change from Christian to Judaism? That blows my mind! You don't have to share that if not comfortable.

I don't mind at all; though I don't often address the theological reasons because I don't want to be seen as speaking against another faith. I retain a great deal of respect and even reverence for the Christian faith, and I do not call it a false religion; it is no longer my OWN religion. You will find some discussion of my conversion, as well as other information in which you might be interested, in this thread.

It's not widely known, but conversion to Judaism is much more common than one might expect. Surveys show that as many as 15% of the 4 million or so American Jews were not raised and Jews, and thus may be converts from other faiths, the overwhelming majority, of course, being former Christians. That is remarkable, considering that we do not proselytize at all and in fact actively discourage converts in the beginning -- and considering that conversion is a long process of required study and counseling that takes a minimum of one year. In my own case, it took four.

There are many converts in my own small congregation; some are former Baptists, some Methodists like me, some Seventh-Day Adventists, and some Catholics, as well as others whose former faiths I do not know. Just last Monday night an entire family's conversion was made final -- the parents and three children, all over 15, and all from conviction and after a great deal of study. After that, they are as Jewish as any Cohen or Levy. One reason that the frequency of conversion to Judaism is little known is that we don't keep statistics; it's actually forbidden to refer to the fact that any Jew is a convert (unless the convert brings it up himself), and this has been forbidden since Talmudic times in order to prevent converts from being discriminated against or disparaged in any way.

[Burninglight]

I understand, but you guys don't even recognize Jesus as a prophet let alone the son of God.

That is correct. Jesus was an ordinary man. He may have been a reform-minded rabbi, opposed to the massive corruption and injustice of the Temple hierarchy's collaboration with the Roman conquerors, but little can be known at this late date about his actual views. It's clear that the Gospels were very heavily influenced by the thought of Paul, whose letters predate them, and it seems probable that a very great many words were put in his mouth long after his death.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all claiming common bonds with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Well, Christianity and Islam may claim what they like, but Judaism and the Jewish people do not have a "common bond" with the Patriarchs; we are descended directly from them in a religious sense, and very often in a genealogical one.

I find it supernaturally confounding that the Jews don't recognize Jesus in any way as a God sent; it is surreal.

I personally think that Jesus was probably sent by God as a sort of Messiah to the Gentiles; the Jews will always be a small people, and there must be SOME way for the rest of mankind to have some knowledge, some light, from the One God. What is certain, though, is that Jesus was not sent to US. Peace to Christians who believe otherwise, but we needed and need no Savior -- which is, again, a totally different concept than that of "Messiah."

I can tell you that I agree that these three religions are distinct, but neither one of them can claim a monopoly on the God of Abraham. What started with the Jews will finish with them. According to the NT Bible, God has blinded the Jews for the time of the gentiles. According to the Bible in Daniel the anti Christ will arise understanding dark sentences, and he will set up the daily sacrifices and make a covenant with the people for 7 years, there will be peace. This leader will be political and many will think he is Christ, but he'll really be Satan incarnated. All he can do is copy God's ideas for deceptive purposes.

Jews, as a rule, express no opinion on the truth or falsity of other religions; we reject a religion as false only on the ground of literal idolatry, the worship of an image as an actual God. Otherwise, we have nothing to say other than "That religion may or may not be true, but it is not our own."

In other words, believe what you like about all that. I will not argue, and it is of no interest to me.

BTW, in Judaism, where to the wicked go if there is no concept of hell...

We do not presume to know. That is for God, the true Judge, to know, and we leave the matter of what happens after death to Him in EVERY case, not just that of the wicked. Judaism has no formal teaching on the Afterlife, either.

...and how did you come to change from Christian to Judaism? That blows my mind! You don't have to share that if not comfortable.

I don't mind at all; though I don't often address the theological reasons because I don't want to be seen as speaking against another faith. I retain a great deal of respect and even reverence for the Christian faith, and I do not call it a false religion; it is no longer my OWN religion. You will find some discussion of my conversion, as well as other information in which you might be interested, in this thread.

It's not widely known, but conversion to Judaism is much more common than one might expect. Surveys show that as many as 15% of the 4 million or so American Jews were not raised and Jews, and thus may be converts from other faiths, the overwhelming majority, of course, being former Christians. That is remarkable, considering that we do not proselytize at all and in fact actively discourage converts in the beginning -- and considering that conversion is a long process of required study and counseling that takes a minimum of one year. In my own case, it took four.

There are many converts in my own small congregation; some are former Baptists, some Methodists like me, some Seventh-Day Adventists, and some Catholics, as well as others whose former faiths I do not know. Just last Monday night an entire family's conversion was made final -- the parents and three children, all over 15, and all from conviction and after a great deal of study. After that, they are as Jewish as any Cohen or Levy. One reason that the frequency of conversion to Judaism is little known is that we don't keep statistics; it's actually forbidden to refer to the fact that any Jew is a convert (unless the convert brings it up himself), and this has been forbidden since Talmudic times in order to prevent converts from being discriminated against or disparaged in any way.

Paul was a Jew. His testimony was that Jesus knocked him off his horse as he was going out to crush the Christians or those who followed Jesus. IMO, His testimony was/is powerful and griping.
As far as Jesus coming for the gentiles only, all of Islam and Christianity will disagree with you. Islam says He only came for the Jews, but Christianity says He came for the world.

There is no doubt the Jewish people are small in number, but they are an awesome people group, because God chose to reveal Himself through them. WOW, we are talking about the Almighty One True God. So don't nobody be messing with the Jews.

However, don't Jew or gentile mess with the true Christians either. The world has what happened to Paul as an example. IOW, they will get knocked off their high horse as well as possibly following that which they once opposed and catching all kinds of beatens because of it. I don't see what Paul or any of the apostles stood to gain. Them risking their lives to preach a tale sounds pretty illogical to say the least.
I see a lot of things in the Torah that point to Jesus and the OT in general so I don't understand why Jewish people reject Jesus as the one who came unto His own. He will always be an offense and a stumbling block to all who reject Him as their Savior!!!

[cnorman18]

Paul was a Jew. His testimony was that Jesus knocked him off his horse as he was going out to crush the Christians or those who followed Jesus. IMO, His testimony was/is powerful and griping.
As far as Jesus coming for the gentiles only, all of Islam and Christianity will disagree with you. Islam says He only came for the Jews, but Christianity says He came for the world.

My thought that Jesus being sent as a sort of "messiah" to the Gentiles was my own personal belief, or more properly speculation. It's no more than that. What is certain is that he was not the Jewish Messiah. Jews get to decide that; we did. End of discussion on that point.

There is no doubt the Jewish people are small in number, but they are an awesome people group, because God chose to reveal Himself through them. WOW, we are talking about the Almighty One True God. So don't nobody be messing with the Jews.

However, don't Jew or gentile mess with the true Christians either. The world has what happened to Paul as an example. IOW, they will get knocked off their high horse as well as possibly following that which they once opposed and catching all kinds of beatens because of it. I don't see what Paul or any of the apostles stood to gain. Them risking their lives to preach a tale sounds pretty illogical to say the least.

I never said, and don't think, that they were deliberately lying; I'm quite sure they believed everything they wrote. That was never the point.

I see a lot of things in the Torah that point to Jesus and the OT in general so I don't understand why Jewish people reject Jesus as the one who came unto His own.

Because he didn't do the things that the Messiah was supposed to do; but beyond that, he claimed -- or it was claimed for him -- that he was a whole raft of things that not only had nothing to do with being the Messiah, but are in fact diametrically opposed to many very basic tenets of Judaism. That he was God Incarnate, for starters; and also that he was the literal Son of God, born of a virgin, the Savior with the power to forgive ALL sins, the Sacrifice who saves by faith alone, and that he was raised from the dead.

NONE of that, you see, has any precedent in Jewish teaching or tradition, and NONE of it has anything to do with the Messiah. None. Zero. Nada. It just isn't there. Christians have been trying to tell us for centuries that (1) it really IS there, but we're just too dumb to understand our own religion, or (2) that we really KNOW that it is and just obstinately and sinfully refuse to submit to what we secretly know to be the truth. Sorry, but the Church has never gotten anywhere trying to tell people that they believe or know things that they just don't, and it isn't going to start getting anywhere now. See, that's what I mean; you can believe what you like, but you don't get to tell US what to believe.

Now Christians can, and do, work very hard to find a verse here or there in the Bible that can be mistranslated or twisted or forced to fit those ideas -- but it stands to reason, for US at least, that if these teachings were central and vital to the Jewish faith as they are to Christianity, that they ought to have been pretty prominently taught and understood before Jesus showed up -- or that we ought to have HEARD of them, at least. We haven't. It just wasn't there, and it won't do to try and stuff it in after the fact.

For a Jew to believe in Jesus requires a lot more than accepting him as our Messiah; it requires us to throw virtually all of Jewish tradition and teaching in the dumper and accept wholesale an entirely new religion, with entirely different values, priorities, goals and concerns. And, notwithstanding the fact that a very few Jews do, on occasion, do just that (some without realizing it), that is not, by and large, going to happen.

He will always be an offense and a stumbling block to all who reject Him as their Savior!!!

I hate to tell you this, but Jesus is neither a "stumbling block" nor an "offense" to us. He's not anything at all. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha.

See, Christians need Judaism, because that's where your religion comes from; but we Jews don't need Christianity at all. We've gotten along just fine without any reference to it, or to Jesus, for two thousand years now. You may have a problem with that, but it's not OUR problem.

Peace to you. I don't care to be preached to any farther, so we're done.

[Goat]

Jeremiah was never speaking of Jesus; Muhammad yes. Jesus has already fufilled over 300 prophecies, but yes, not all of them. He will though every single one will be fufilled!

That's the claim. However, when you look at each prophecy in context, in a historical and cultural context.. then.. well, no.. .Jesus didn't full fill ANY.

Some prophecies were written TO. Others.. well, they are not prophecies, but phrases taken out of context.. shoe horned into place, and mistranslated.

For example.. Isaiah 7:14, used to say that Jesus was predicted to have a "Virgin Birth' Alamah means 'Young woman', and if you read Isiaiah 7 /8 IN CONTEXT, it shows that Isaiah was writing about his own wife and son being a sign to King Ahaz.


And, if you read it in context, the 'suffering servant' in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus, but the nation of Israel.

We can go out to show how the 'prophecy' 'Out of Bethlehem' was showing that the Messiah would be from a tribe, not a city... (specifically from the House of David", and since that follows the MALE line, not the woman's line, that would eliminate Jesus, since the bloodline follows the biological father, and Joseph was allegedly not Jesus' father.

We could go on and on about that, and see, well, no, Jesus didn't full fill any of the prophecies.

I have never heard the argument that Jesus did not fulfill even one of the three hundred prophecy's made by a person of any race, creed, faith, or philosophy. Your audacity is only exceeded in scope by the size of the task required to defend it. If I was to argue against Christianity this would be about the last method I would employ.

Well, the 300 so called 'prophecies' are in the Jewish scriptures.. .. the ones that evangelistic Christians bring up at least... and that I know about.

Want to bring start a thread about 'prophecies Jesus full filled' and show them one at a time, and i can show how that 'prophecy' is no such thing? .. After all, you are the one that made the claim he full filled 300 prophecies.. I don't see you trying to prove he did.

I am quite willing to go over each and every one of those claimed ones.. if you are willing to try to back up your claim.. How about the top ten, and we can do it one at a time?

[Burninglight]

Paul was a Jew. His testimony was that Jesus knocked him off his horse as he was going out to crush the Christians or those who followed Jesus. IMO, His testimony was/is powerful and griping.
As far as Jesus coming for the gentiles only, all of Islam and Christianity will disagree with you. Islam says He only came for the Jews, but Christianity says He came for the world.

My thought that Jesus being sent as a sort of "messiah" to the Gentiles was my own personal belief, or more properly speculation. It's no more than that. What is certain is that he was not the Jewish Messiah. Jews get to decide that; we did. End of discussion on that point.

There is no doubt the Jewish people are small in number, but they are an awesome people group, because God chose to reveal Himself through them. WOW, we are talking about the Almighty One True God. So don't nobody be messing with the Jews.

However, don't Jew or gentile mess with the true Christians either. The world has what happened to Paul as an example. IOW, they will get knocked off their high horse as well as possibly following that which they once opposed and catching all kinds of beatens because of it. I don't see what Paul or any of the apostles stood to gain. Them risking their lives to preach a tale sounds pretty illogical to say the least.

I never said, and don't think, that they were deliberately lying; I'm quite sure they believed everything they wrote. That was never the point.

I see a lot of things in the Torah that point to Jesus and the OT in general so I don't understand why Jewish people reject Jesus as the one who came unto His own.

Because he didn't do the things that the Messiah was supposed to do; but beyond that, he claimed -- or it was claimed for him -- that he was a whole raft of things that not only had nothing to do with being the Messiah, but are in fact diametrically opposed to many very basic tenets of Judaism. That he was God Incarnate, for starters; and also that he was the literal Son of God, born of a virgin, the Savior with the power to forgive ALL sins, the Sacrifice who saves by faith alone, and that he was raised from the dead.

NONE of that, you see, has any precedent in Jewish teaching or tradition, and NONE of it has anything to do with the Messiah. None. Zero. Nada. It just isn't there. Christians have been trying to tell us for centuries that (1) it really IS there, but we're just too dumb to understand our own religion, or (2) that we really KNOW that it is and just obstinately and sinfully refuse to submit to what we secretly know to be the truth. Sorry, but the Church has never gotten anywhere trying to tell people that they believe or know things that they just don't, and it isn't going to start getting anywhere now. See, that's what I mean; you can believe what you like, but you don't get to tell US what to believe.

Now Christians can, and do, work very hard to find a verse here or there in the Bible that can be mistranslated or twisted or forced to fit those ideas -- but it stands to reason, for US at least, that if these teachings were central and vital to the Jewish faith as they are to Christianity, that they ought to have been pretty prominently taught and understood before Jesus showed up -- or that we ought to have HEARD of them, at least. We haven't. It just wasn't there, and it won't do to try and stuff it in after the fact.

For a Jew to believe in Jesus requires a lot more than accepting him as our Messiah; it requires us to throw virtually all of Jewish tradition and teaching in the dumper and accept wholesale an entirely new religion, with entirely different values, priorities, goals and concerns. And, notwithstanding the fact that a very few Jews do, on occasion, do just that (some without realizing it), that is not, by and large, going to happen.

He will always be an offense and a stumbling block to all who reject Him as their Savior!!!

I hate to tell you this, but Jesus is neither a "stumbling block" nor an "offense" to us. He's not anything at all. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha.

See, Christians need Judaism, because that's where your religion comes from; but we Jews don't need Christianity at all. We've gotten along just fine without any reference to it, or to Jesus, for two thousand years now. You may have a problem with that, but it's not OUR problem.

Peace to you. I don't care to be preached to any farther, so we're done.

Okay, friend no more preaching. But just for the record, I don't believe that He's (Yeshua) not a rock of offense to the Jew first then to the gentile that reject Him. As you mentioned, you get to decide, but I can identify with Isaiah who asks:

Who has believed what he has heard from us?[a]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows,[c] and acquainted with[d] grief;[e]
and as one from whom men hide their faces[f]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[g]
when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[j]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

[cnorman18]

If you are really interested in the Jewish view of this passage, as opposed to just insisting that the Christian view is correct, here you will find the index to a whole series of articles on that passage, its meaning from a Jewish point of view, and on various Christian arguments about it. For myself, I have no more to say.

[Burninglight]

Jeremiah was never speaking of Jesus; Muhammad yes. Jesus has already fufilled over 300 prophecies, but yes, not all of them. He will though every single one will be fufilled!

That's the claim. However, when you look at each prophecy in context, in a historical and cultural context.. then.. well, no.. .Jesus didn't full fill ANY.

Some prophecies were written TO. Others.. well, they are not prophecies, but phrases taken out of context.. shoe horned into place, and mistranslated.

For example.. Isaiah 7:14, used to say that Jesus was predicted to have a "Virgin Birth' Alamah means 'Young woman', and if you read Isiaiah 7 /8 IN CONTEXT, it shows that Isaiah was writing about his own wife and son being a sign to King Ahaz.


And, if you read it in context, the 'suffering servant' in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus, but the nation of Israel.

We can go out to show how the 'prophecy' 'Out of Bethlehem' was showing that the Messiah would be from a tribe, not a city... (specifically from the House of David", and since that follows the MALE line, not the woman's line, that would eliminate Jesus, since the bloodline follows the biological father, and Joseph was allegedly not Jesus' father.

We could go on and on about that, and see, well, no, Jesus didn't full fill any of the prophecies.

I have never heard the argument that Jesus did not fulfill even one of the three hundred prophecy's made by a person of any race, creed, faith, or philosophy. Your audacity is only exceeded in scope by the size of the task required to defend it. If I was to argue against Christianity this would be about the last method I would employ.

Well, the 300 so called 'prophecies' are in the Jewish scriptures.. .. the ones that evangelistic Christians bring up at least... and that I know about.

Want to bring start a thread about 'prophecies Jesus full filled' and show them one at a time, and i can show how that 'prophecy' is no such thing? .. After all, you are the one that made the claim he full filled 300 prophecies.. I don't see you trying to prove he did.

I am quite willing to go over each and every one of those claimed ones.. if you are willing to try to back up your claim.. How about the top ten, and we can do it one at a time?

I may have under estimated. I believe there are more than 400. So lets start with all of Isaiah 53. IMO, it fits Jesus like a perfect glove tailored specifically for Him.
How about Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ... 700 B.C.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

John 1:1-3, 14 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

BORN OF A VIRGIN

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C.

Matthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH

Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C.

Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE

Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.

Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.

Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [5] ... Obed the father of Jesse, [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID

Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C.

Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.

Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Over the years there have been a number of "Bethlehems" in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as "Bethlehem in Judea", was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, (c) 1995)

BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE

Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan -- [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.

Matthew 2:22-23 [22] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

Matthew 4:13-16 [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- [14] to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles -- [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."

HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS

Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more." 625 B.C.

Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

An interesting side note: most people think that Herod killed thousands of babies. However, Bethlehem was "in the boondocks." The chances are that less than thirty babies were killed.

COME OUT OF EGYPT

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C.

Let me add to this, all just for starters: Deut 18 18 the Muslims like to claim refers to Muhammad. Jesus was like Moses more than Muhammad in the sense they were both saviors, both were saved from infanticide, both were called out of Egypt both were made God the sea obeyed them both and etc.
Muhammad never did any miracles and was not from the ancestral line of Isaac the child of promise. He was reject by God as the child of promised; nevertheless for Abraham's sake he was blessed by God. Jesus directly descends from Isaac. In fact, the command God gave Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was a shadow of what was done with Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is the last Adam! He is a stumbling block to all that neglect so great a salvation.

peace to lovers of truth

[Goat]

Jeremiah was never speaking of Jesus; Muhammad yes. Jesus has already fufilled over 300 prophecies, but yes, not all of them. He will though every single one will be fufilled!

That's the claim. However, when you look at each prophecy in context, in a historical and cultural context.. then.. well, no.. .Jesus didn't full fill ANY.

Some prophecies were written TO. Others.. well, they are not prophecies, but phrases taken out of context.. shoe horned into place, and mistranslated.

For example.. Isaiah 7:14, used to say that Jesus was predicted to have a "Virgin Birth' Alamah means 'Young woman', and if you read Isiaiah 7 /8 IN CONTEXT, it shows that Isaiah was writing about his own wife and son being a sign to King Ahaz.


And, if you read it in context, the 'suffering servant' in Isaiah 53 is not Jesus, but the nation of Israel.

We can go out to show how the 'prophecy' 'Out of Bethlehem' was showing that the Messiah would be from a tribe, not a city... (specifically from the House of David", and since that follows the MALE line, not the woman's line, that would eliminate Jesus, since the bloodline follows the biological father, and Joseph was allegedly not Jesus' father.

We could go on and on about that, and see, well, no, Jesus didn't full fill any of the prophecies.

I have never heard the argument that Jesus did not fulfill even one of the three hundred prophecy's made by a person of any race, creed, faith, or philosophy. Your audacity is only exceeded in scope by the size of the task required to defend it. If I was to argue against Christianity this would be about the last method I would employ.

Well, the 300 so called 'prophecies' are in the Jewish scriptures.. .. the ones that evangelistic Christians bring up at least... and that I know about.

Want to bring start a thread about 'prophecies Jesus full filled' and show them one at a time, and i can show how that 'prophecy' is no such thing? .. After all, you are the one that made the claim he full filled 300 prophecies.. I don't see you trying to prove he did.

I am quite willing to go over each and every one of those claimed ones.. if you are willing to try to back up your claim.. How about the top ten, and we can do it one at a time?

I may have under estimated. I believe there are more than 400. So lets start with all of Isaiah 53. IMO, it fits Jesus like a perfect glove tailored specifically for Him.
How about Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ... 700 B.C.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

John 1:1-3, 14 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

BORN OF A VIRGIN

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C.

Matthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH

Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C.

Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE

Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.

Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.

Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [5] ... Obed the father of Jesse, [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID

Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C.

Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.

Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Over the years there have been a number of "Bethlehems" in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as "Bethlehem in Judea", was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, (c) 1995)

BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE

Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan -- [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.

Matthew 2:22-23 [22] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

Matthew 4:13-16 [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- [14] to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles -- [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."

HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS

Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more." 625 B.C.

Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

An interesting side note: most people think that Herod killed thousands of babies. However, Bethlehem was "in the boondocks." The chances are that less than thirty babies were killed.

COME OUT OF EGYPT

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C.

Let me add to this, all just for starters: Deut 18 18 the Muslims like to claim refers to Muhammad. Jesus was like Moses more than Muhammad in the sense they were both saviors, both were saved from infanticide, both were called out of Egypt both were made God the sea obeyed them both and etc.
Muhammad never did any miracles and was not from the ancestral line of Isaac the child of promise. He was reject by God as the child of promised; nevertheless for Abraham's sake he was blessed by God. Jesus directly descends from Isaac. In fact, the command God gave Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was a shadow of what was done with Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is the last Adam! He is a stumbling block to all that neglect so great a salvation.

peace to lovers of truth

Ah yes.. the good old Isaiah 53.. the 4th suffering servant song. Part of the problem is that the Christian translations have things in the FUTURE tense, while the passages are the the perfect tense (for something that already happened).

Who does the writer of Deutro-Isaiah say it is?? One bit of historical information, the nation of Israel was often called 'Jacob'. .. so lets look at the 4th servant song and see who the writer of the 4th servant song says the servant is.

Let's look back at the begining of the song

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

So, there , the servant is Israel


[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

Oh my.. yet again, the servant is directly identified as Israel... using the duel term 'Israel' and "Jacob"
[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

And yet a third time!!! Seeing a pattern there??

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

A forth time!

And one more time, just for good measure.

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)

So, in the 4th suffering servant song, the servant is directly identified as the Nation of Israel.


Then, let's take a look at Isaiah 9:6-7. Well, it just so happens that Isaiah 9:6 and 9:7 is talking about someone who was alive and well in the time period that Isaiah is writing in. Isaiah is specifically using the royal names of Hezekiah. It was custom in that time to name children after God's attributes, and Hezekiah is literally 'God is our strength' , or mighty God. Isaiah is talking about someone already born and grown up.. and seems to me to be flattering his sponsor, Hezekiah father, King Ahaz.


And, Born of of virgin.. Well, let's look at Isaiah 7:14 in CONTEXT .. oh, what a wonderful thing it is to look at a passage in context, rather than ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, and all that sort of stuff.

First of all, the word 'Almah' is not a virgin, but merely a young woman of marriageable age. Then, let's take a look at the passages a bit more..

This is a sign to King Ahaz, you see.

14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
15. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good.
16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."
17. The Lord shall bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father's house, days which have not come, since the day that Ephraim turned away from Judah, namely, the king of Assyria.
18. And it shall be on that day, that the Lord shall whistle to the "fly" that is at the edge of the canals of Egypt, and to the "bee" that is in the land of Assyria.
19. And they shall come and all of them shall rest in the desolate valleys and in the clefts of the rocks and in all the thornbushes and in all the shrines.
20. On that day, the Lord shall shave with the great razor on the other side of the river, on the king of Assyria, the head and the hair of the legs, and also the beard shall be entirely removed.
21. And it shall come to pass on that day, a man shall keep alive a heifer of the herd and two sheep.
22. And it shall be, because of the plentiful milk produced, that he shall eat cream, for everyone left in the land will eat cream and honey.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every place where there were a thousand vines for a thousand pieces of silver, will be for the worms and the thorns.
24. With arrows and with a bow shall one come there, for the whole land shall be worms and thorns.
25. And all the mountains that will be dug with a spade-the fear of worms and thorns shall not come there; it shall be for the pasture of oxen and for the treading of sheep.

Let's look at Isaiah 7:14 to 7:25. IN this, the sign to King Ahaz is detailed a little bit better. First of all you see a woman is going to give birth to a son' (we won't argue about the tense of 'is pregnant'.. ).

Now, what happens with this son??? It's a sign to King Ahaz about the troubles he is having with the King of Assyria. It is giving a time frame. By the time this child is born, and knows enough to know 'good' from bad'... the King of Assyria will have some whooping put on him, and won't be a problem anymore. That is not something 600 or 700 years in the future.. it's for King Ahaz, right then and there.

Is this the case?? Let's look a little bit at chapter 8..

3. And I was intimate with the prophetess, and she conceived, and she bore a son, and the Lord said to me, "Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
4. For, when the lad does not yet know to call, 'Father' and 'mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria."

Well, that appears he is identifying that child as his own son!! Can this be confirmed in his writings? Why, yes it can.

18. Behold, I and the children whom the Lord gave me for signs and for tokens in Israel, from the Lord of Hosts, Who dwells on Mount Zion.

What Matthew and John say don't really hold up, when the context is Isaiah is looked at, and what he is actually writing about.

Now, when it comes to 'Jesse' and that sort of stuff.. for that to happen, it has to be of the biological descendent of David, no adoptions, no skipping into the female line to get there. Guess what. According to the Gospels, Joseph was NOT Jesus father. That eliminates Jesus from fulfilling that prophecy right then and there.. he did not qualify.

As for Hosea 1:1.. that wasn't considered a prophecy.. that is a phrase that got written TO to make it look like a prophecy. That is the technique known as 'shoe horning' a phrase into place.. It is a pretty dishonest tactic actually.


Let's look at the Hosea 1, and see what it is talking about

“When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

2 But the more I called Israel,
the further they went from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.

3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.

4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love;
I lifted the yoke from their neck
and bent down to feed them.

5 “Will they not return to Egypt
and will not Assyria rule over them
because they refuse to repent?

…

12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
the house of Israel with deceit.
And Judah is unruly against God,
even against the faithful Holy One

Is it talking about a person?? Nope?? it is talking about the nation of Israel, it isn't a prophecy, and it is a piece of out of context writing that the author of the New Testament wrote to so that Jesus would look more legit.. at least until you look at the original.