Proselytizing

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rreppy
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Proselytizing

Post #1

Post by rreppy »

No Buddhist monk has ever come to my door on a Sunday morning and confronted me about whether or not I was "saved". I like that. I feel if you are confident that your religion is worthwhile, then you should have faith that people will find it and be convinced on its own merits, without the need of a bunch of pushy salespersons trying to "close a deal".
I admire the fact that the Dalai Lama, in almost every speech he makes to westerners, exhorts them to stay in the religion of their upbringing and merely explore whether Buddhism might have some tools and insights they may find useful. I could never imagine in a million years the Dalai Lama doing what Christian missionaries have done, going into foreign cultures and blasting their native religions as lies and blasphemies, destroying their works of art, burning their books, and telling them tales about how they will "burn in torment forever" if they don't convert.
Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".
I say, let a person find their own path and make up their own mind. Don't insult me by calling my beliefs inferior to your own and then shoving yours down my throat. A worthy religion shouldn't have to proselytize. Don't demean spirituality to the level of a popularity contest.

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Burninglight
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Prophecy

Post #91

Post by Burninglight »

I can see where you going with this. I can bring up more verses, but you are going to come up with the same explanations. So you are an atheist who studies the Scripture. Then you must know that Jesus is the culmination of Israel; He is the Israel that had His hands and feet pierced for our sin.

It wasn't the nation of Israel that had its hands and feet pierced for the sins of the world. Jesus is the King of Israel! What is done to Jesus is done to true Israel and what is done to Israel is done to Jesus. Israel belongs to Jesus, but the nation of Israel rejects their King who is really the King of Kings. It is written, "Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the father!"


cnorman18

Re: Prophecy

Post #92

Post by cnorman18 »

I can see where you going with this. You can bring up more verses cherry-picked and ripped from their context, and Goat or I can show the intended meaning of those verses when and as they were written, but you are going to dismiss the actual text of the Hebrew Bible and come up with the same "explanations." So you are a fundamentalist who studies the Scripture, but ignores its actual meaning and even its actual words in order to force it to fit Christian doctrine. Then you dare to overrule and dismiss ALL of Jewish tradition and teaching for four thousand years, as well as the Hebrew Bible itself, and declare that a man was in fact God, that a human sacrifice was required to save people from their sins, that people are so saved by believing the right things (aka thinking the right thoughts), that their actions therefore matter less than their believing the correct doctrines, and that those who do not think the right thoughts will burn in agony for all eternity -- and then you claim that all that was the real meaning of the Hebrew Bible, when no Jew had ever heard or taught a word of it from the Creation until the writing of the New Testament.

Like I said; you follow a different religion. That's OK with us Jews. Just don't try to tell us what OUR religion teaches, or what we have to believe. You may certainly believe that we're all going to Hell if you like; we don't much care about that either. We don't agree, and you're not going to MAKE us agree by twisting and misquoting and misrepresenting OUR sacred texts. You've been trying that SINCE the writing of the New Testament -- along with ostracism, oppression, exile, torture, and mass murder from time to time -- and it hasn't worked. There will always be a few Jews who, ignorant of their heritage, will be fooled into believing these falsehoods about the faith of their births and becoming Christians; but the Jewish people are not flocking to Jesus, and we never, ever will. The Old Covenant is still in effect, and we don't need Jesus.

If you choose to believe that the professing Christians who, excused and justified by the kind of teachings you've posted here, committed the premeditated murder (or complacently stood by and did nothing to stop the murder) of six million Jewish men, women and children, as well as millions more Jehovah's Witnesses, dissident Catholics and Lutherans, Roma, gays, elderly and mentally challenged people, are all blissfully dwelling in Heaven while their innocent victims are all burning in Hell, that's fine with us too, you see.

And if some Christians have to answer for that kind of arrogance and dogmatism one day, well, that's fine with us too.

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Re: Prophecy

Post #93

Post by Goat »

Burninglight wrote:I can see where you going with this. I can bring up more verses, but you are going to come up with the same explanations. So you are an atheist who studies the Scripture. Then you must know that Jesus is the culmination of Israel; He is the Israel that had His hands and feet pierced for our sin.

It wasn't the nation of Israel that had its hands and feet pierced for the sins of the world. Jesus is the King of Israel! What is done to Jesus is done to true Israel and what is done to Israel is done to Jesus. Israel belongs to Jesus, but the nation of Israel rejects their King who is really the King of Kings. It is written, "Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the father!"


To be more precise, I am a Jewish person who just so happens to be an atheist.. and no, I don't accept the misuse and abuse of the Jewish scripture to 'provide' prophecies for Jesus, to try to tell me I am 'an incomplete Jew' because I don't accept Jesus.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Burninglight
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Re: Prophecy

Post #94

Post by Burninglight »

cnorman18 wrote:I can see where you going with this. You can bring up more verses cherry-picked and ripped from their context, and Goat or I can show the intended meaning of those verses when and as they were written, but you are going to dismiss the actual text of the Hebrew Bible and come up with the same "explanations." So you are a fundamentalist who studies the Scripture, but ignores its actual meaning and even its actual words in order to force it to fit Christian doctrine. Then you dare to overrule and dismiss ALL of Jewish tradition and teaching for four thousand years, as well as the Hebrew Bible itself, and declare that a man was in fact God, that a human sacrifice was required to save people from their sins, that people are so saved by believing the right things (aka thinking the right thoughts), that their actions therefore matter less than their believing the correct doctrines, and that those who do not think the right thoughts will burn in agony for all eternity -- and then you claim that all that was the real meaning of the Hebrew Bible, when no Jew had ever heard or taught a word of it from the Creation until the writing of the New Testament.

Like I said; you follow a different religion. That's OK with us Jews. Just don't try to tell us what OUR religion teaches, or what we have to believe. You may certainly believe that we're all going to Hell if you like; we don't much care about that either. We don't agree, and you're not going to MAKE us agree by twisting and misquoting and misrepresenting OUR sacred texts. You've been trying that SINCE the writing of the New Testament -- along with ostracism, oppression, exile, torture, and mass murder from time to time -- and it hasn't worked. There will always be a few Jews who, ignorant of their heritage, will be fooled into believing these falsehoods about the faith of their births and becoming Christians; but the Jewish people are not flocking to Jesus, and we never, ever will. The Old Covenant is still in effect, and we don't need Jesus.

If you choose to believe that the professing Christians who, excused and justified by the kind of teachings you've posted here, committed the premeditated murder (or complacently stood by and did nothing to stop the murder) of six million Jewish men, women and children, as well as millions more Jehovah's Witnesses, dissident Catholics and Lutherans, Roma, gays, elderly and mentally challenged people, are all blissfully dwelling in Heaven while their innocent victims are all burning in Hell, that's fine with us too, you see.

And if some Christians have to answer for that kind of arrogance and dogmatism one day, well, that's fine with us too.
There were many Christians that provided hiding places for Jews during that time, and they were killed for following Jesus words when He said, "Greater love has no man than this that he lay down his life for a friend." Jesus did this. It is written, "For the preaching of the cross is to those that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God. The Jewish mantel of all the prophets since the time of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob follow those that follow Christ!!! BTW, since you are bringing up irrelevant things, is it not written that the Jews said, "Crucify him, and let His blood be on us and our children?"

cnorman18

Re: Prophecy

Post #95

Post by cnorman18 »

Burninglight wrote: There were many Christians that provided hiding places for Jews during that time, and they were killed for following Jesus words when He said, "Greater love has no man than this that he lay down his life for a friend." 
This is true, and I have, very many times, acknowledged those heroic Christians and what they did for my people. There is a wall commemorating their heroism at the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, Yad Vashem. 

However -- reference to those righteous Gentiles is very often, as here, used to cover and distract from the fact that the Holocaust was perpetrated by Christians and the overwhelming majority of Christians were complacent about it or actively supported it. 

I'd also note in passing that, even though you quoted them, you have also ignored without response the rest of my remarks and arguments.  
Jesus did this. It is written, "For the preaching of the cross is to those that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God. The Jewish mantel of all the prophets since the time of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob follow those that follow Christ!!! BTW, since you are bringing up irrelevant things, is it not written that the Jews said, "Crucify him, and let His blood be on us and our children?"
And that verse has been used for centuries on end to justify the oppression and hatred of Jews. The "Christ-killer" myth was only a part of the Church's formal teaching of antisemitism and bigotry for almost two thousand years, which teaching was one of the factors that made the mass murder of millions acceptable, and even praiseworthy, to so very many Christians. Thanks for demonstrating that those attitudes and teachings are still with us. 

You can spare us any more sermons. You've already made it clear that you believe that Jews who do not follow Jesus will burn in Hell, including the victims of the Nazis. And that's all we need to know. 

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Burninglight
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Re: Prophecy

Post #96

Post by Burninglight »

cnorman18 wrote:
Burninglight wrote: There were many Christians that provided hiding places for Jews during that time, and they were killed for following Jesus words when He said, "Greater love has no man than this that he lay down his life for a friend." 
This is true, and I have, very many times, acknowledged those heroic Christians and what they did for my people. There is a wall commemorating their heroism at the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, Yad Vashem. 

However -- reference to those righteous Gentiles is very often, as here, used to cover and distract from the fact that the Holocaust was perpetrated by Christians and the overwhelming majority of Christians were complacent about it or actively supported it. 

I'd also note in passing that, even though you quoted them, you have also ignored without response the rest of my remarks and arguments.  
Jesus did this. It is written, "For the preaching of the cross is to those that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God. The Jewish mantel of all the prophets since the time of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob follow those that follow Christ!!! BTW, since you are bringing up irrelevant things, is it not written that the Jews said, "Crucify him, and let His blood be on us and our children?"
And that verse has been used for centuries on end to justify the oppression and hatred of Jews. The "Christ-killer" myth was only a part of the Church's formal teaching of antisemitism and bigotry for almost two thousand years, which teaching was one of the factors that made the mass murder of millions acceptable, and even praiseworthy, to so very many Christians. Thanks for demonstrating that those attitudes and teachings are still with us. 

You can spare us any more sermons. You've already made it clear that you believe that Jews who do not follow Jesus will burn in Hell, including the victims of the Nazis. And that's all we need to know. 
I never said that; you are putting words in my mouth. I don't know who's going to end up in hell. Hitler was no Christian; He believed in Darwinism survival of the fittest. No Bible believing Christian would ever harm anyone especially a Jew.

Thank you for making my point. It is Jesus that is the offense to you. If it is true that Christians take it out on the Jews, or that they are or have a part in Christ's death; then, they should keep in mind what Jesus said, "Offenses will come, but woe unto them from whom they come" My point is all are accountable for their actions.

Muslims bombed the WTC for the cause of Allah. My brother got buried under the debri. You don't know me. I am glad the Jews got the Romans to kill Jesus!!! This is what happened like it or not. It is history; don't make me to be the bad guy or give me a black eye, because you want to deny history. I am not doing that to you. It seems to me that you still hate Jesus. IMO, until there is some type of reconcilation, Jesus will always be a thorn in the side of Jews; mark my words!!!
Peace to truth seekers

PS edit: FYI, from a true spiritual perspective, all the world is responsible for the death of Christ. It was sin that put Him up there on the cross not any people group!

cnorman18

Re: Prophecy

Post #97

Post by cnorman18 »

Burninglight wrote: I never said that; you are putting words in my mouth. I don't know who's going to end up in hell.
I think the implications have been very clear in your posts. Do you or do you not believe that Jews who do not confess Jesus as Savior will end up in Hell? You have said as much, and more than once.
Hitler was no Christian; He believed in Darwinism survival of the fittest. No Bible believing Christian would ever harm anyone especially a Jew.
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Usual and predictable. Not worth countering; the history of the Church preaching and teaching hatred of Jews for centuries, and rather often inspiring and directing pogroms and exiles itself, is a matter of historical record. If you're claiming that no true Christian would ever wrong or oppress a Jew, then there were periods in history when there were no Christians at all, and you are placing your own "true Christianity" under suspicion by your own standards on the evidence of your posts right here. See the arguments above on your supposed "proof texts" to which you have STILL failed to respond -- and see below.
Thank you for making my point. It is Jesus that is the offense to you. If it is true that Christians take it out on the Jews, or that they are or have a part in Christ's death; then, they should keep in mind what Jesus said, "Offenses will come, but woe unto them from whom they come" My point is all are accountable for their actions.
So the Jews of today are "accountable" for something a few Jews allegedly did, two thousand years ago on the other side of the world?

The Roman Catholic Church itself has renounced that vicious, hateful doctrine. You keep proving my point and revealing unfortunate things about your own beliefs, while saying nothing true or accurate about mine at all.
Muslims bombed the WTC for the cause of Allah. My brother got buried under the debri. You don't know me.
None of which has anything to do with the matters we're discussing here. Antisemitism and the "replacement theology" that is its mother's milk is still alive and well in the world, and you have held yourself up as a shining example of it.
I am glad the Jews got the Romans to kill Jesus!!! This is what happened like it or not. It is history; don't make me to be the bad guy or give me a black eye, because you want to deny history. I am not doing that to you.
If you refuse to acknowledge two thousand years of Christian Jew-hatred, starting with the verse from Matthew that you yourself cited, you absolutely ARE denying history.
It seems to me that you still hate Jesus.
NOW who's putting words in whose mouth? Jesus was a good Jew and a nice man, probably a reformer protesting the injustices and corruption of his own day who was unjustly condemned and executed. Does that sound like hate to you?

I don't believe that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, because he wasn't. That doesn't mean I hate him. Whether or not he was the Christian Christ is none of my business, but I have no problem with that idea at all. He may very well be your Savior. He wasn't and isn't mine.
IMO, until there is some type of reconcilation, Jesus will always be a thorn in the side of Jews; mark my words!!!
Like I said; we don't need Jesus, we don't think about him, we don't care about him, and he is no "thorn in our side."

Christians who feel the need to preach to us, though, while obstinately refusing to acknowledge the role of the Church in our centuries of oppression and persecution....
Peace to truth seekers
Amen to that. May you someday become one, and give a bit of respect to truths other than your own.
PS edit: FYI, from a true spiritual perspective, all the world is responsible for the death of Christ. It was sin that put Him up there on the cross not any people group!
That is your belief, and I have no argument with it. It was once my own belief, but it no longer is.

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Burninglight
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Re: Prophecy

Post #98

Post by Burninglight »

cnorman18 wrote:
Burninglight wrote: I never said that; you are putting words in my mouth. I don't know who's going to end up in hell.
I think the implications have been very clear in your posts. Do you or do you not believe that Jews who do not confess Jesus as Savior will end up in Hell? You have said as much, and more than once.
Hitler was no Christian; He believed in Darwinism survival of the fittest. No Bible believing Christian would ever harm anyone especially a Jew.
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Usual and predictable. Not worth countering; the history of the Church preaching and teaching hatred of Jews for centuries, and rather often inspiring and directing pogroms and exiles itself, is a matter of historical record. If you're claiming that no true Christian would ever wrong or oppress a Jew, then there were periods in history when there were no Christians at all, and you are placing your own "true Christianity" under suspicion by your own standards on the evidence of your posts right here. See the arguments above on your supposed "proof texts" to which you have STILL failed to respond -- and see below.
Thank you for making my point. It is Jesus that is the offense to you. If it is true that Christians take it out on the Jews, or that they are or have a part in Christ's death; then, they should keep in mind what Jesus said, "Offenses will come, but woe unto them from whom they come" My point is all are accountable for their actions.
So the Jews of today are "accountable" for something a few Jews allegedly did, two thousand years ago on the other side of the world?

The Roman Catholic Church itself has renounced that vicious, hateful doctrine. You keep proving my point and revealing unfortunate things about your own beliefs, while saying nothing true or accurate about mine at all.
Muslims bombed the WTC for the cause of Allah. My brother got buried under the debri. You don't know me.
None of which has anything to do with the matters we're discussing here. Antisemitism and the "replacement theology" that is its mother's milk is still alive and well in the world, and you have held yourself up as a shining example of it.
I am glad the Jews got the Romans to kill Jesus!!! This is what happened like it or not. It is history; don't make me to be the bad guy or give me a black eye, because you want to deny history. I am not doing that to you.
If you refuse to acknowledge two thousand years of Christian Jew-hatred, starting with the verse from Matthew that you yourself cited, you absolutely ARE denying history.
It seems to me that you still hate Jesus.
NOW who's putting words in whose mouth? Jesus was a good Jew and a nice man, probably a reformer protesting the injustices and corruption of his own day who was unjustly condemned and executed. Does that sound like hate to you?

I don't believe that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, because he wasn't. That doesn't mean I hate him. Whether or not he was the Christian Christ is none of my business, but I have no problem with that idea at all. He may very well be your Savior. He wasn't and isn't mine.
IMO, until there is some type of reconcilation, Jesus will always be a thorn in the side of Jews; mark my words!!!
Like I said; we don't need Jesus, we don't think about him, we don't care about him, and he is no "thorn in our side."

Christians who feel the need to preach to us, though, while obstinately refusing to acknowledge the role of the Church in our centuries of oppression and persecution....
Peace to truth seekers
Amen to that. May you someday become one, and give a bit of respect to truths other than your own.
PS edit: FYI, from a true spiritual perspective, all the world is responsible for the death of Christ. It was sin that put Him up there on the cross not any people group!
That is your belief, and I have no argument with it. It was once my own belief, but it no longer is.
Who goes to hell? I have already answered that question. I was never a part of a church that hated Jews. I have never hated Jews; in fact, the first friend I ever had was Jewish.
I said people that hold the Jews responsible for the death of Christ and persecute them will be held accountable for their actions by God.
You asked me are the Jews being held accountable for what a few said and did? Honestly, I don't know. I only know what they said, and I acknowledge the great holocaust. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. What are you accusing me of not acknowledging, and what do you want me to do about it? Are you trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip?
Has it ever occurred to you that I don't acknowledge something, because I don't see it that way or don't see it at all?

I have put no words in your mouth. I said it "seems like" I didn't say you hate Jesus! You are being belligerent with me, but what have I done to you? You are accusing me of antisemitism a denier of truth and only God know what else. The Bible says, "Satan is the accuser of the saints" Is it because I believe Jesus who said "I am the way... no man comes to the father except through me?" You said you don't hate Jesus, but you hate the message I share; that message is who Jesus is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't hate it and I am mistaken, well, you could have fooled me!
One of the rules on this forum is to be civil. If you are being civil, I hate to see when you not. Do you really believe I hate you and all Jews? I would never presume to think anything like that about you let alone say it. As far as truth goes, I believe Jesus is the truth and there is only one truth just as there is only one God!
This is not my message; this is what Christ alludes to in no uncertain terms!
BTW, The verse I quoted in Matthew was to those who persecute the Jews. I wasn't using it to say woe to the jew; it was woe to those that mess with them. Plz read carefully!

cnorman18

Re: Prophecy

Post #99

Post by cnorman18 »

Burninglight wrote: Who goes to hell? I have already answered that question. I was never a part of a church that hated Jews. I have never hated Jews; in fact, the first friend I ever had was Jewish.
I said people that hold the Jews responsible for the death of Christ and persecute them will be held accountable for their actions by God.
You asked me are the Jews being held accountable for what a few said and did? Honestly, I don't know. I only know what they said, and I acknowledge the great holocaust. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. What are you accusing me of not acknowledging, and what do you want me to do about it? Are you trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip?
Has it ever occurred to you that I don't acknowledge something, because I don't see it that way or don't see it at all?

I have put no words in your mouth. I said it "seems like" I didn't say you hate Jesus! You are being belligerent with me, but what have I done to you? You are accusing me of antisemitism a denier of truth and only God know what else. The Bible says, "Satan is the accuser of the saints" Is it because I believe Jesus who said "I am the way... no man comes to the father except through me?" You said you don't hate Jesus, but you hate the message I share; that message is who Jesus is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't hate it and I am mistaken, well, you could have fooled me!
One of the rules on this forum is to be civil. If you are being civil, I hate to see when you not. Do you really believe I hate you and all Jews? I would never presume to think anything like that about you let alone say it. As far as truth goes, I believe Jesus is the truth and there is only one truth just as there is only one God!
This is not my message; this is what Christ alludes to in no uncertain terms!
BTW, The verse I quoted in Matthew was to those who persecute the Jews. I wasn't using it to say woe to the jew; it was woe to those that mess with them. Plz read carefully!
You apparently don't know the difference between disagreement in a rational, civil debate and personal attack. Further, you have alleged that I have said a very great many things which I have not said, and you are backing away from things that you have said and/or implied very clearly indeed. Finally, you seem to be growing more and more enraged that I reject your message, don't care about Jesus or anything that he said, and have a different view of history and what constitutes biblical exegesis than your own. Those issues are neither my problem nor my responsibility.

I have said nothing at all uncivil; I have done nothing at all wrong; and I don't care to continue this conversation. Have a nice day.

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