Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Let's deal with you points and questions right here: Here is the Bible verse that all things were made by Jesus and for Him seen and unseen: 

Col 1: 15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven. 
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in [ad]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [ae]was made a [af] minister"

ANSWER: I asked you to show me where Jesus (peace be upon him) is explicitly mentioned "before all things seen and unseen" which was your first statement, but now you seem to be saying that "all things were made by Jesus (peace be upon him) and for Him seen and unseen" I also asked you to show me "Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence" which you haven't done.

Furthermore getting back to the passage, is the word Jesus (peace be upon him) to be found any where in this passage, the context is very ambiguous so how can you be certain it is talking about Jesus (peace be upon him) and not talking about Yahweh All-Mighty, whom Jesus (peace be upon him) was created in His Image, then this passage would make more sense and we would have nothing to disagree on in regards to Jesus (peace be upon him, considering the fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) being the "image" of God according to the  OT is defined as Holiness, Righteousness and Goodness.

Hence Jesus (peace be upon him) being the Image of God does not make him God Himself. Jesus (peace be upon him) himself said that no one in the entire Universe has a Goodness like that of God and I (Jesus Christ) included. Moreover what information would Paul have to talk about Jesus (peace be upon him) in this passage when Colossians has been  claimed to have been written by Paul. I mean seriously can anything even be taken from such a man that clearly demonstrated his uncertainty and doubts about whether he even had the Spirit of God All-Mighty in him. Lets not just turn a blind eye to the facts Burninglight. Let's be realistic here, and use our intellect and logic. 

QUOTE: "Your point about Jesus only meant to be for the lost house of Israel. Sister, you have to read the Bible in context and look carefully what Jesus said and did to fully understand. You are looking through an Islamic lense. You can't do that and expect to be objective. Read this: by Terry W. Benton 

The Argument Stated: 
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel"

ANSWER: I am reading it in context, and there is nothing in the bible that states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to all of mankind, unless you have something from the bible that says otherwise then Terry W. Benton means nothing.

QUOTE: "The Argument Stated: 
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel. 

I keep seeing the argument expressed that Jesus spoke only to the lost sheep of Israel, or only to Israel. The conclusion drawn from that fact is that "therefore" whatever He said to Israel was never intended to apply beyond 
Israel. This includes Jesus' teaching on divorce and remarriage and adultery. MMLJ refers to the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. By "before the Cross" he means all that these books talk about before the story of the cross itself. 

Answer to that argument: 

1. He spoke the great commission to Jews only, but instructed that what He commanded them was to be taught to all nations. Matthew 28:18-20. Even if it is argued that Matthew 28:20 is talking about the commands He gave in the 40 days after the cross, those were still spoken to Jews only. Therefore, the fact that something was spoken to the Jews first, does not mean that it was only for them. But, notice further.... "

ANSWER:  Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) say I have come for all of mankind, from history we know that the present day Gospels were written by men much after the departure of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) from earth, so how can we be sure they have not been changed to include all of mankind.

How can a Prophet's mission change?? Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is referred to as a Prophet of Galilee and not of the whole world by the ordinary person, Matthew 21:11. It was Paul who changed his mission to suit their needs:

"And the crowds said, 'This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.'"
 
"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 

Therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is greater than the disciples and his words are what matter most. If there is a contradiction, the disciples should be rejected on this matter. We are witness how the disciples were confused:

Acts 11:19 

"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."

 AND

Acts 11:1-3
 
"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him. Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them ."

QUOTE: "2. Jesus said that the gospel He had been preaching before the cross to Jews only was to also be preached "in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). Therefore, the fact that He came to the Jews only, is not proof that His words were intended to be limited to them. Jesus here declares that what He had been teaching the Jews only regarding the kingdom was INTENDED to be preached to all nations. But, notice further...."

ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) never said such a thing, can you show me where he said this. Jesus (peace be upon him) was not sent to  all of mankind nor is Christianity a religion for all of mankind. Even if for arguments sake we say that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross (which he didn't) for people's sins, he didn't do it for all nations sins, but for the Jews alone who believed in him.

In Islam, every nation on earth had a Messenger of God sent to them, this does not mean Jesus (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind. Furthermore there is another problem with this scenario when one reads the entire chapter of  Mathew 24 it says:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This suggests the end of time prophecie when Jesus(peace be upon him) coming back should occur during the time of the generation in which Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke of in the bible. Clearly Jesus (peace be upon him), according to the bible meant his generation who witnessed his speech, those who were living at that time. Jesus (peace be upon him) makes it clear that "this generation" , those who were standing in front of him would witness all those signs. So how could it be for all nations???

Moreover some translations  have it as "people" which is referring to the near by nations and tribes, not necessarily every single nation on earth.  
Certainly, Jesus (peace be upon him) promising them that he will come back soon and that Judgement Day will come before "this generation passes" (Mark 13:30) proves it doesn't include every single nation on earth.

QUOTE: "3. The story of the woman who anointed Jesus (Matthew 26:6-13 - before the cross), was to be "preached in the whole world". Therefore, Jesus intended that His actions and interactions with people before the cross, as well as what He was teaching before the cross be among the things that would be "preached in all the world" (not to Jews ONLY). Matthew and Mark are the only places where this story is told. But Jesus intended that this story be told in all the world, not just to the Jews. Therefore, Jesus intended that Matthew and Mark would be among those things that would be "preached in all the world". These things were among the things that would "go forth from Jerusalem". But, notice further...."

ANSWER: What Jesus (peace be upon him) taught before the cross cannot be upheld by Christians let alone be preached to all the world. This verse does not mean literally the whole world because this is a figure of speech. For example, if I say I like pizza that doesn't mean I like all types of pizza. If decide to take Matthew 26:13 literally, then we have another problem because it contradicts the following   2 verses:

Matthew 15:24: 

Jesus said: "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Matthew 10:5-6: Jesus said:

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."

QUOTE: "4. "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world" (John 1:9). John is writing his book to describe the Light of the world. Even though He came first to the Jews, His intention was to light "every man coming into the world" (not just the Jews). While Jesus was still a baby Simeon said: "A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel" (Luke 2:32). Notice now, that Jesus was intended to be a light to "every man" including Gentiles. Now, at the time John wrote his gospel (long after the Old Testament was nailed to the cross), he can now introduce Jesus as "the true Light which GIVES (present tense) light to every man who comes into the world". John was written to share the true light with everyone, not just the Jews. Therefore, John is not intended to be an Old Testament book for the Jews. The gospel was intended to be "for the Jew FIRST, and ALSO for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16)."

ANSWER: Who decides when to introduce Jesus (peace be upon him)?? Did Jesus (peace be upon him) give John a command to introduce him after his death did he??.  Luke 2:32 is in agreement that it included only the Jews and Israel:

Luke 2:32:

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

As for Romans 1:16 if we look at the king James version it tells us exactly who this includes:

Romans 1:16:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Again if we look at the NIV of John 1:9. There isn't even any mention of Jesus (peace be upon him) being a light to "every man"

John 1:9:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

QUOTE: "Conclusion: 
It is immaterial that Jesus went first to Israel only. He expressed His clear intentions that what He was preaching before the cross and interactions with people before the cross would be among the things that would be "preached in ALL the world" (Matthew 24:14; 26:9-13). Those things He wanted "preached in all the world" are given to us in the 27 books of the New Testament, all of which are among the Spirit revelations that would "go forth from Jerusalem." Clearly, all 27 books are New Testament books. New Testament books often contain many important Old Testament facts (the gospels, Acts 7, Acts 13, Heb.11, etc.). This does not change them into Old Testament books. Genesis - Exodus19 are in the Old Testament. This section contains patriarchal facts, but that does not turn them into books that do not belong to the Old Testament. Acts 7 talks about patriarchal facts. That does not remove Acts 7 from the New Testament. There are ONLY two testaments. The first testament and the second (See Hebrews 8-10). The first testament contained Genesis thru Malachi. The second testament was written after the first was abolished. The first four books that appear in our present arrangement of the New Testament books tells us things Jesus was preaching that He said would be "preached in all the world." So, every time you hear someone make the "to Jews ONLY" argument, just remember these things"

ANSWER: Therefore in conclusion we see no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) said that he came to all of mankind just speculations and illusory statements that Jesus (peace be upon him) wanted things changed after the cross when he explicitly said to follow the laws of the Old Testament.

I have quoted the Bible to you and besides, you are wrong. Jesus did mandate that His disciples go into all the world and preach the gospel teaching them to observe all He commanded in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. He even mentions the trinity. What do you think Jesus meant by the father,son and Holy Spirit? Don't throw rocks at what you don't understand, or at what Muhammad never understood. Concern yourself with your own associations in your religion.

BTW, many Muslims also agree that the shahadah is an association. Sorry, you can't see it, but I am calling a spade a spade. When you say Allah is god "AND" Muhammad is his prophet, you have made an association by using the conjunction "AND" by linking them together as two inseparable Entities as pertains to your standing with Allah as a Muslim; otherwise, you cannot be Muslim!!! So, don't attack the Christian trinity throwing rocks when you live in a glass house. Thank you

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "I have quoted the Bible to you and besides, you are wrong. Jesus did mandate that His disciples go into all the world and preach the gospel teaching them to observe all He commanded in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. He even mentions the trinity. What do you think Jesus meant by the father,son and Holy Spirit? Don't throw rocks at what you don't understand, or at what Muhammad never understood. Concern yourself with your own associations in your religion"

ANSWER: You have quoted the bible that has been corrupted and changed by Paul, and I have shown you how contradictory those verses are. Jesus (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind at the time, there is absolutely no evidence that it applies to all of mankind today. I want to see where the Trinity concept was accepted and preached by Jesus (peace be upon him) himself. Islam doesn't associate partners onto God, you still have failed to prove this only an attempt to say that the shahada is an association with God, which you can't explain other than saying that by adding God and Muhammad (peace be upon him)  in the same sentence this is association, we are talking about worship not sentence structures.

QUOTE: "BTW, many Muslims also agree that the shahadah is an association. Sorry, you can't see it, but I am calling a spade a spade. When you say Allah is god "AND" Muhammad is his prophet, you have made an association by using the conjunction "AND" by linking them together as two inseparable Entities as pertains to your standing with Allah as a Muslim; otherwise, you cannot be Muslim!!! So, don't attack the Christian trinity throwing rocks when you live in a glass house. Thank you.

ANSWER: Many Muslims?? Lol. The Shahada is the number one fundamental pillar in Islam, if one doesn't believe in the Shahada he is not Muslim and does not recognize that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final Messenger of God. So can you explain to me how someone that does not accept the shahada can be classified as being Muslim?, furthermore it's not an association with God in worship the Shahada actually refutes this claim. I don't know of any Muslims that would agree with you in regards to it being an association in worship. I think you have nothing credible to stand on so you just want to accuse Islam of such a thing when you clearly know very well you can't prove this. If I hadn't come out of my glass house I wouldn't know what I know about the Trinity concept that does not exist, nor would have been guided to the true religion of God, Islam. Your Welcome

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "I have quoted the Bible to you and besides, you are wrong. Jesus did mandate that His disciples go into all the world and preach the gospel teaching them to observe all He commanded in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. He even mentions the trinity. What do you think Jesus meant by the father,son and Holy Spirit? Don't throw rocks at what you don't understand, or at what Muhammad never understood. Concern yourself with your own associations in your religion"

ANSWER: You have quoted the bible that has been corrupted and changed by Paul, and I have shown you how contradictory those verses are. Jesus (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind at the time, there is absolutely no evidence that it applies to all of mankind today. I want to see where the Trinity concept was accepted and preached by Jesus (peace be upon him) himself. Islam doesn't associate partners onto God, you still have failed to prove this only an attempt to say that the shahada is an association with God, which you can't explain other than saying that by adding God and Muhammad (peace be upon him)  in the same sentence this is association, we are talking about worship not sentence structures.

QUOTE: "BTW, many Muslims also agree that the shahadah is an association. Sorry, you can't see it, but I am calling a spade a spade. When you say Allah is god "AND" Muhammad is his prophet, you have made an association by using the conjunction "AND" by linking them together as two inseparable Entities as pertains to your standing with Allah as a Muslim; otherwise, you cannot be Muslim!!! So, don't attack the Christian trinity throwing rocks when you live in a glass house. Thank you.

ANSWER: Many Muslims?? Lol. The Shahada is the number one fundamental pillar in Islam, if one doesn't believe in the Shahada he is not Muslim and does not recognize that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final Messenger of God. So can you explain to me how someone that does not accept the shahada can be classified as being Muslim?, furthermore it's not an association with God in worship the Shahada actually refutes this claim. I don't know of any Muslims that would agree with you in regards to it being an association in worship. I think you have nothing credible to stand on so you just want to accuse Islam of such a thing when you clearly know very well you can't prove this. If I hadn't come out of my glass house I wouldn't know what I know about the Trinity concept that does not exist, nor would have been guided to the true religion of God, Islam. Your Welcome

The great apostle Paul (PBUH) corrupted nothing. He brought knowledge and wisdom and was called by God to be an apostle. Besides, Jesus is the one that said preach the gospel to all peoples in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit not Paul. Your argument is weak; besides, look at the problems the Quran has. You don't have an original. They were burned and changed by Uthman Allah's editor.

The Muslims called the Quranist don't believe in saying the second part of the shahadah. You need to do a little more research about the different sects of Islam. Muslims are having differences just like Christians only all Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "The great apostle Paul (PBUH) corrupted nothing. He brought knowledge and wisdom and was called by God to be an apostle. Besides, Jesus is the one that said preach the gospel to all peoples in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit not Paul. Your argument is weak; besides, look at the problems the Quran has. You don't have an original. They were burned and changed by Uthman Allah's editor"

ANSWER: Of course he did, he brought knowledge and wisdom?? By going against the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and distorting the religion of God?? I doubt God would choose such a person to represent Jesus (peace be upon him). There are many things that Jesus (peace be upon him) taught that Paul was clearly opposed to and distorted. A few examples include:

1) Jesus (peace be upon him) ordered circumcision Paul rejected this.

2) Jesus (peace be upon him) taught salvation is attained by keeping the commandments, physical prayer, fasting, and observing the Law of Moses. Paul neglected these commands and distorted the Path to Salvation preached by Jesus (peace be upon him) claiming  “salvation comes through faith and grace� which is exactly what the missionaries are saying today. 

3) Fasting is commanded however we see Christians echoing the teachings of Paul.

4) Physical prayer is commanded, Paul rejected these laws.

These are a few examples so why do Christians not uphold and practice the true teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him)??.  Muslims a closer in following Jesus (peace be upon him) as the practice  circumcision, fasting an entire month during Ramadan, physically praying at least 5 times a day and believing he was a Prophet of God.

Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) say preach in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit?? The Quran doesn't have any problems, it is you that has problems with it, we do have the original from day one, nothing has been changed not the slightest of letters. The Quran was originally revealed in the Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman, differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. 

Because this alarmed Uthman, he decided to burn the Quran and made an official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and was memorized by his companions, hence there couldn't of been a change, as it was already memorized in the heart of men which would have picked up on the slightest change. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet (peace be upon him) by One God, Allah. You are trying to take a situation that occurred and adding your interpretation of what really happened. It's not going to work Burniglight, I'm sorry lol.

QUOTE: "The Muslims called the Quranist don't believe in saying the second part of the shahadah. You need to do a little more research about the different sects of Islam. Muslims are having differences just like Christians only all Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God"

ANSWER: I don't consider Quranists as Muslim because they reject the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the shahada so how are they Muslim?? And you say I have weak arguments lol. I'm aware of the different sects of Islam thats why Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) warned us against such deviance and made it very clear that there is only one sect that is on the straight path. And these people are those that adhere to the true teachings of Islam without any distortion. Differences do not suggest they are all right, there is only One truth. The early Christians rejected the concept of Trinity and you are mistaken there are liberal Christians that believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is merely a man.

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "The great apostle Paul (PBUH) corrupted nothing. He brought knowledge and wisdom and was called by God to be an apostle. Besides, Jesus is the one that said preach the gospel to all peoples in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit not Paul. Your argument is weak; besides, look at the problems the Quran has. You don't have an original. They were burned and changed by Uthman Allah's editor"

ANSWER: Of course he did, he brought knowledge and wisdom?? By going against the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and distorting the religion of God?? I doubt God would choose such a person to represent Jesus (peace be upon him). There are many things that Jesus (peace be upon him) taught that Paul was clearly opposed to and distorted. A few examples include:

1) Jesus (peace be upon him) ordered circumcision Paul rejected this.

2) Jesus (peace be upon him) taught salvation is attained by keeping the commandments, physical prayer, fasting, and observing the Law of Moses. Paul neglected these commands and distorted the Path to Salvation preached by Jesus (peace be upon him) claiming  “salvation comes through faith and grace� which is exactly what the missionaries are saying today. 

3) Fasting is commanded however we see Christians echoing the teachings of Paul.

4) Physical prayer is commanded, Paul rejected these laws.

These are a few examples so why do Christians not uphold and practice the true teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him)??.  Muslims a closer in following Jesus (peace be upon him) as the practice  circumcision, fasting an entire month during Ramadan, physically praying at least 5 times a day and believing he was a Prophet of God.

Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) say preach in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit?? The Quran doesn't have any problems, it is you that has problems with it, we do have the original from day one, nothing has been changed not the slightest of letters. The Quran was originally revealed in the Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman, differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. 

Because this alarmed Uthman, he decided to burn the Quran and made an official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and was memorized by his companions, hence there couldn't of been a change, as it was already memorized in the heart of men which would have picked up on the slightest change. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet (peace be upon him) by One God, Allah. You are trying to take a situation that occurred and adding your interpretation of what really happened. It's not going to work Burniglight, I'm sorry lol..

Sure it is all working. You are going to have to show proof for you points 1-4. This, IMO, is one of your fabrication again. Paul was following Jesus' commands to the T. Muslim say Jesus (Peace be upon Him) and that PBUH means nothing. It makes Him sick to hear it. It makes Jesus sick when people honor Him with their lips and their hearts are far from Him, but Muslim don't even honor Him with their lips. They don't know Jesus so how can they love him or honor Him. Jesus is only an argument for Muslim and nothing more. Muslim can't see the truth in the Bible or the Quran where in both books Jesus is called the word of God. The word of God is eternal; the word of God is uncreated. Muslim can't see how S 4: 171 calls Jesus the word of God; than, it contradicts itself by saying Jesus is only a messenger. One cannot be the word of God and be a Messenger at the same time. The word of God is God. God esteems His word above all his name. Muslims simply do not know God or Jesus and claim they do.

QUOTE: "The Muslims called the Quranist don't believe in saying the second part of the shahadah. You need to do a little more research about the different sects of Islam. Muslims are having differences just like Christians only all Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God"

ANSWER: I don't consider Quranists as Muslim because they reject the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the shahada so how are they Muslim?? And you say I have weak arguments lol. I'm aware of the different sects of Islam thats why Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) warned us against such deviance and made it very clear that there is only one sect that is on the straight path. And these people are those that adhere to the true teachings of Islam without any distortion. Differences do not suggest they are all right, there is only One truth. The early Christians rejected the concept of Trinity and you are mistaken there are liberal Christians that believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is merely a man.

They don't reject the prophet; they only reject saying the second part of the shahadah. They claim you are association partners with Allah. I agree with them. I can see it that way. You do have many discrepancies in Islam to say the least.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Sure it is all working. You are going to have to show proof for you points 1-4. This, IMO, is one of your fabrication again. Paul was following Jesus' commands to the T. Muslim say Jesus (Peace be upon Him) and that PBUH means nothing. It makes Him sick to hear it. It makes Jesus sick when people honor Him with their lips and their hearts are far from Him, but Muslim don't even honor Him with their lips. They don't know Jesus so how can they love him or honor Him. Jesus is only an argument for Muslim and nothing more. Muslim can't see the truth in the Bible or the Quran where in both books Jesus is called the word of God. The word of God is eternal; the word of God is uncreated. Muslim can't see how S 4: 171 calls Jesus the word of God; than, it contradicts itself by saying Jesus is only a messenger. One cannot be the word of God and be a Messenger at the same time. The word of God is God. God esteems His word above all his name. Muslims simply do not know God or Jesus and claim they do"

ANSWER: Fabrications?? are these fabrications??:

Point 1:

This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14)

What did Paul order:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6, KJV)

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (NIV)

Point 2: 

And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. (Mark 9:29)

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. (Matthew 26:39)

What did Paul order:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isaiah 45:23)

Point 3: 

Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: (Joel 2:12)

Where does Paul in the bible say to fast??

Point 4:

And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: (Daniel 9:3)

Where does Paul uphold physical prayer???

Therefore we see none of these things upheld by Paul, Burninglight, we don't rely on Paul to tell us who Jesus (peace be upon him) was we rely on God, hence the reason we love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) for who he was. If you really loved him you wouldn't be claiming he is Devine and be worshipping him like a Godly figure. You are correct we don't see elements of falsehood as truth in parts of the bible, because we reject anything that is in contradiction with what God wanted mankind to follow. I have already explained 4:171, where in that verse does it say such a thing???

Jesus (peace be upon him) the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him. Jesus (peace be upon him) is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, "Be" and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. Jesus (peace be upon him) was a word from Allah NOT Jesus (peace be upon him) that He bestowed on Mary, meaning He created him with the word "Be" that He sent with Angel Gabriel to Mary. Angel Gabriel blew the life of Jesus (peace be upon him) into Mary by Allah's leave, and Jesus (peace be upon him) came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why Jesus (peace be upon him) was a word and a spirit created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, "Be" and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Angel Gabriel. 

You are claiming that Jesus (peace be upon him) is part of God hence spoke the word of God, this is associating partners onto God, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not part or equal to God in any way nor does he possess any of His names or attributes this is uniquely for God. Then you claim that because the Quran used the sentence "Allah and His word" this means that this is Jesus??? When it specifically says God???

QUOTE: "They don't reject the prophet; they only reject saying the second part of the shahadah. They claim you are association partners with Allah. I agree with them. I can see it that way. You do have many discrepancies in Islam to say the least"

ANSWER: If you reject the second part of the shahada you are in return rejecting the Prophet (peace be upon him) because the second part of the shahada means: 

“I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.�

Quranists reject the Sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him) meaning that they don't follow the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the Hadith. If they reject the Hadith then how do they even know how to pray?? I guess they don't lol. There are no discrepancies in Islam, you are only trying to create one.

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Sure it is all working. You are going to have to show proof for you points 1-4. This, IMO, is one of your fabrication again. Paul was following Jesus' commands to the T. Muslim say Jesus (Peace be upon Him) and that PBUH means nothing. It makes Him sick to hear it. It makes Jesus sick when people honor Him with their lips and their hearts are far from Him, but Muslim don't even honor Him with their lips. They don't know Jesus so how can they love him or honor Him. Jesus is only an argument for Muslim and nothing more. Muslim can't see the truth in the Bible or the Quran where in both books Jesus is called the word of God. The word of God is eternal; the word of God is uncreated. Muslim can't see how S 4: 171 calls Jesus the word of God; than, it contradicts itself by saying Jesus is only a messenger. One cannot be the word of God and be a Messenger at the same time. The word of God is God. God esteems His word above all his name. Muslims simply do not know God or Jesus and claim they do"

ANSWER: Fabrications?? are these fabrications??:

Point 1:

This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14)

What did Paul order:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6, KJV)

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (NIV)

Point 2: 

And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting. (Mark 9:29)

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. (Matthew 26:39)

What did Paul order:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isaiah 45:23)

Point 3: 

Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: (Joel 2:12)

Where does Paul in the bible say to fast??

Point 4:

And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: (Daniel 9:3)

Where does Paul uphold physical prayer???

Therefore we see none of these things upheld by Paul, Burninglight, we don't rely on Paul to tell us who Jesus (peace be upon him) was we rely on God, hence the reason we love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) for who he was. If you really loved him you wouldn't be claiming he is Devine and be worshipping him like a Godly figure. You are correct we don't see elements of falsehood as truth in parts of the bible, because we reject anything that is in contradiction with what God wanted mankind to follow. I have already explained 4:171, where in that verse does it say such a thing???

Jesus (peace be upon him) the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him. Jesus (peace be upon him) is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, "Be" and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. Jesus (peace be upon him) was a word from Allah NOT Jesus (peace be upon him) that He bestowed on Mary, meaning He created him with the word "Be" that He sent with Angel Gabriel to Mary. Angel Gabriel blew the life of Jesus (peace be upon him) into Mary by Allah's leave, and Jesus (peace be upon him) came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why Jesus (peace be upon him) was a word and a spirit created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, "Be" and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Angel Gabriel. 

You are claiming that Jesus (peace be upon him) is part of God hence spoke the word of God, this is associating partners onto God, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not part or equal to God in any way nor does he possess any of His names or attributes this is uniquely for God. Then you claim that because the Quran used the sentence "Allah and His word" this means that this is Jesus??? When it specifically says God???

QUOTE: "They don't reject the prophet; they only reject saying the second part of the shahadah. They claim you are association partners with Allah. I agree with them. I can see it that way. You do have many discrepancies in Islam to say the least"

ANSWER: If you reject the second part of the shahada you are in return rejecting the Prophet (peace be upon him) because the second part of the shahada means: 

“I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.�

Quranists reject the Sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him) meaning that they don't follow the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the Hadith. If they reject the Hadith then how do they even know how to pray?? I guess they don't lol. There are no discrepancies in Islam, you are only trying to create one.

Is that what you call proof?. Circumcision was a covenant between God and the Jews not for gentiles.

You state, "If you reject the second part of the shahada you are in return rejecting the Prophet..." Well, in that case, with your very own words, you don't honor all other prophets in the Bible, because you don't mention them in the shahadah, and you don't see all prophets as equal. Muhammad is an idol in Islam. It is written to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah.

No matter how you twist and turn this it is an association worthy of shirk in Islam. The Quran contradicts itself by Calling Jesus the word of God only to deny Him the power of being the word of God. Christ Jesus is not valued at all unless He is valued above all" Saying PBUH after mentioning a prophet does nothing for the prophet or the Muslim saying it. Finally, The shahadah itself is a contradiction of what Isalm claims to stand for. I wish you could see the truth. Jesus is the truth the only one you'll ever know!

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Is that what you call proof?. Circumcision was a covenant between God and the Jews not for gentiles"

ANSWER: Circumcision was a practice of Jesus (peace be upon him) something that is neglected today, and not the teaching of Paul. The Jewish Law commands the circumcision on the eighth day. The reason why Christians are not circumcised is because they follow Paul. They have broken the covenant of Circumcision according to Jesus himself Matthew 5:19:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

The Talmud states the following to those who break the Covenant:

"The one who voids the covenant of Abraham has no portion in the world to come (Avot 3:16).

Christians will not have any “portion in the world to come� because they have totally rejected the Message of Jesus (peace be upon him) and have  replaced it with the Gospel of Paul.

QUOTE: "You state, "If you reject the second part of the shahada you are in return rejecting the Prophet..." Well, in that case, with your very own words, you don't honor all other prophets in the Bible, because you don't mention them in the shahadah, and you don't see all prophets as equal. Muhammad is an idol in Islam. It is written to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah"

ANSWER: Nope, wrong again those who reject the second part of the shahada are rejecting the Prophet (peace be upon him) being the Messenger of God as well as all of the Prophets because Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the seal of the Prophets. Hence we acknowledge all the Prophets (peace be upon them all) and do not reject the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as Christians do today.

Furthermore as for your statement about the shahada not mentioning all the Prophets, where would the practicality be in that, we would need to read pages full of Prophets that God has sent to earth??

We don't see all the Prophets as equal with God as Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him). There is a difference. What next Burninglight where is it stated "to obey Muhammad (peace be upon him) is to obey Allah" please provide your evidence and explain how Muhammad (peace be upon him) is an idol in Islam.

QUOTE: "No matter how you twist and turn this it is an association worthy of shirk in Islam. The Quran contradicts itself by Calling Jesus the word of God only to deny Him the power of being the word of God. Christ Jesus is not valued at all unless He is valued above all" Saying PBUH after mentioning a prophet does nothing for the prophet or the Muslim saying it. Finally, The shahadah itself is a contradiction of what Isalm claims to stand for. I wish you could see the truth. Jesus is the truth the only one you'll ever know!"

ANSWER: You need to explain how Burninglight, throwing unauthorized statements means nothing much at all, especially when I have explained this to you extensively. Again just in case you missed what I said in my previous post it was a word from God not Jesus (peace be upon him) in that verse. We don't believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God Burninglight, you should know this by now. You are placing Jesus (peace be upon him) above God by saying he is "valued above all". We regard all the Prophets in a highly respectable manner for that reason we say peace be upon them, furthermore
God willing we are rewarded for saying this as it is  an obligation to say this after mentioning Muhammad's (peace be upon him) name. I would more than happy to accept the truth if you could prove the truth Burninglight. You are right Jesus (peace be upon him) was on the truth and came with the truth, but his teachings are not upheld by Christians today. What a shame!

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Is that what you call proof?. Circumcision was a covenant between God and the Jews not for gentiles"

ANSWER: Circumcision was a practice of Jesus (peace be upon him) something that is neglected today, and not the teaching of Paul. The Jewish Law commands the circumcision on the eighth day. The reason why Christians are not circumcised is because they follow Paul. They have broken the covenant of Circumcision according to Jesus himself Matthew 5:19:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

The Talmud states the following to those who break the Covenant:

"The one who voids the covenant of Abraham has no portion in the world to come (Avot 3:16).

Christians will not have any “portion in the world to come� because they have totally rejected the Message of Jesus (peace be upon him) and have  replaced it with the Gospel of Paul.

QUOTE: "You state, "If you reject the second part of the shahada you are in return rejecting the Prophet..." Well, in that case, with your very own words, you don't honor all other prophets in the Bible, because you don't mention them in the shahadah, and you don't see all prophets as equal. Muhammad is an idol in Islam. It is written to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah"

ANSWER: Nope, wrong again those who reject the second part of the shahada are rejecting the Prophet (peace be upon him) being the Messenger of God as well as all of the Prophets because Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the seal of the Prophets. Hence we acknowledge all the Prophets (peace be upon them all) and do not reject the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as Christians do today.

Furthermore as for your statement about the shahada not mentioning all the Prophets, where would the practicality be in that, we would need to read pages full of Prophets that God has sent to earth??

We don't see all the Prophets as equal with God as Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him). There is a difference. What next Burninglight where is it stated "to obey Muhammad (peace be upon him) is to obey Allah" please provide your evidence and explain how Muhammad (peace be upon him) is an idol in Islam.

QUOTE: "No matter how you twist and turn this it is an association worthy of shirk in Islam. The Quran contradicts itself by Calling Jesus the word of God only to deny Him the power of being the word of God. Christ Jesus is not valued at all unless He is valued above all" Saying PBUH after mentioning a prophet does nothing for the prophet or the Muslim saying it. Finally, The shahadah itself is a contradiction of what Isalm claims to stand for. I wish you could see the truth. Jesus is the truth the only one you'll ever know!"

ANSWER: You need to explain how Burninglight, throwing unauthorized statements means nothing much at all, especially when I have explained this to you extensively. Again just in case you missed what I said in my previous post it was a word from God not Jesus (peace be upon him) in that verse. We don't believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God Burninglight, you should know this by now. You are placing Jesus (peace be upon him) above God by saying he is "valued above all". We regard all the Prophets in a highly respectable manner for that reason we say peace be upon them, furthermore
God willing we are rewarded for saying this as it is  an obligation to say this after mentioning Muhammad's (peace be upon him) name. I would more than happy to accept the truth if you could prove the truth Burninglight. You are right Jesus (peace be upon him) was on the truth and came with the truth, but his teachings are not upheld by Christians today. What a shame!

That is fine many Christians are circumcised at birth as i was, but that means nothing. circumcision was not a commandment.
Jesus is a word? lol, what word is He? I see you like to pick and choose what to believe from the the Bible and the Quran. That is not what Jn 1 says and it is not what Quran 4: 171 says. You think you have explained extensively, but your explanation satisfys only you misconceptions of God's will. IOW, it is your misconceptions of truth that are extensive sister.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "That is fine many Christians are circumcised at birth as i was, but that means nothing. circumcision was not a commandment. 
Jesus is a word? lol, what word is He? I see you like to pick and choose what to believe from the the Bible and the Quran. That is not what Jn 1 says and it is not what Quran 4: 171 says. You think you have explained extensively, but your explanation satisfys only you misconceptions of God's will. IOW, it is your misconceptions of truth that are extensive sister"

ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) approved of circumcision, he was in favor of it and never disallowed it, he was circumcised himself (Luke 2:15-21). Paul preached that it was not physically necessary. If God wanted to prohibit circumcision in the New Testament, then he would of inspired Mary and Joseph not to circumcise Jesus (peace be upon him) Jesus (peace be upon him) never even once prohibited circumcision.

Furthermore according to Acts 15:1, you cannot be saved unless you are circumcised:

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1)

Jesus (peace be upon him) approved of the Law that the Jews were following and Jesus (peace be upon him) did not come to abolish the laws of the Old Testament:

 “Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished"

(From the NIV Bible, Matthew 5:17-18)

Where did I say Jesus (peace be upon him) is a word?? Lol. What am I picking and choosing Burninglight, care to explain what you mean? That is exactly what those verses mean, if you do not agree then prove it otherwise. I have given you extensive explanations from both your scriptures and the Quran, but you are refusing to accept the evidence provided. My extensive research into the distortions and changes that are present in the bible is what has lead me to the truth.