Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[Burninglight]

@ A Troubled Man

Or, women are oppressed and meant to be kept at home pregnant and in the kitchen.

Women are not oppressed in Islam, every women has responsibilities as a parent, this being one of them, to look after her children and to feed them. Which parent wold deny this?? This is not something uncommon even the most primitive of people would do this as this in the nature of women, to love, care, nurture and give her children the best upbringing. No doubt there are exceptions where by men would do the same, however even according to the western statistics the amount of stay home women outweigh that of men. 

What I find to be oppression is where a society indirectly forces the women to work, run a house hold and look after the children all at once, due to the cost of living, in return being restricted by society to put aside having babies, sometimes all together. Where by women have a time frame to return back to work and are forced to put their children into childcare, depriving the child of very much needed care and nutrients such breast milk. This is not only oppression to the women but also to the child.

No, there aren't many embracing Islam, that is false.

Wrong Again.....2013:

No, they see the foolishness and delusions of those indoctrinated into religions.

Nope, they see the truth. They realize the doctrines in the Quran to be from God and submit to the commands of their Creator.

Why would Allah use deception in his plan by making something appear to be one thing it is not and cause the birth of a religion that is greater than Islam? If Allah didn't make it appear that Jesus Christ died then Christianity would never have started. It looks like the best of planners plan backfired. IMO, that makes the plan not so good. How do you honestly see it?

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

Why does Allah/God have to plan to deceive anyone? He can accomplish what He wants with truth. Jesus is the truth; He didn't say I show you the truth. He said I am. 

Jesus did everything on earth the father was doing in heaven. We don't see Jesus lying, tricking, scheming, fooling, planning or misleading anyone. He even told to truth to His enemies. Why would Allah/God have to lie and use the evil tactics of sinful man to accomplish his purposes with deception? As a result of this deception, Christianity was born, and it is larger than Islam. That seems self-defeating to me logically speaking, but you are willing to believe it. 

I believe God always tells the truth in love. We deceive ourselves when we disobey Him; He doesn't deceive people. I could never accept that God is the best of deceivers; but I believe the satan is the father of lies as stated in the Bible.

God is the truth and He is the All-Almighty, He does as He wills, protecting and aiding those that are following His religion. Jesus (peace be upon him) saying I am the truth is nothing different to any other Prophet that came at a specific time proclaiming the same thing. All the Prophets were the truth at the time they came to proclaim the belief and worship of pure Monotheism, believing in one God, something Christians do not do.

How can Jesus (peace be upon him) have been doing everything that the father was doing in heaven if Jesus (peace be upon him) is the father according to Christianity??? Furthermore who said anything about Jesus (peace be upon him) lying, tricking, scheming, fooling, planning or misleading anyone??, as Muslims we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the truth and was an example that demonstrated high moral values. Jesus (peace be upon him) never said I am the father worship me, he was nothing more than a Prophet (peace be upon him) like all other Prophets that came with the same message for a specific group of people. All the Prophets were truthful, you seem to be confused Burninglight God does not lie. Yes you are right in saying Christianity was born in the sense that it has been distorted changed and manipulated by man rather than following the true teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). The fastest growing religion in the world is Islam , logically this would tell you something, people are waking up. One only has to examine the statics of how many Christians are becoming Atheists to realize that Christianity doesn't make any sense.

God loves us more than a mother loves her child, you are right, we are deceiving ourselves when we don't believe in God, the question is are you truly believing in Him? Certainly Not!

No one said anything about Jesus being the father or tricking anyone. Jesus is not the father. He is the son of God or the Word of God incarnate.

It is written in the Quran that Allah used deception which is the same tactics of finite human beings. Why would he use the same tactics of unbelievers to scheme, plan and plot for the sole purpose of deception?

How could that have been from God when the plan failed by being self defeating?

More Muslims are becoming Christians than Christians are becoming atheistic or Muhammad's followers. Looking a Islam only raises questions; I get no answers!

There is a difference. Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and life." He didn't say I show the way. There is a difference between being and showing. No other prophet could say "I am" or "No one comes to God except through me" or "I am the way, truth and life."

[HaLi8993]

@ Burniglight

Why would Allah use deception in his plan by making something appear to be one thing it is not and cause the birth of a religion that is greater than Islam? If Allah didn't make it appear that Jesus Christ died then Christianity would never have started. It looks like the best of planners plan backfired. IMO, that makes the plan not so good. How do you honestly see it?

.

God does not deceive people in believing something it is not, it is Christianity that has deceived many into believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross. God sent Jesus (peace be upon him) with a clear message and that was the belief of One God. It is those that changed the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) that gave rise to a new religion that is now far from the truth. You said it yourself Christianity was started by man, namely Paul the founder of Christianity. God All-Mighty is most Knowledgable of what was to happen this is why he has clearly made mention of Jesus (peace be upon him) in the Quran. Allah's plan was the best of plans as He protected Jesus (peace be upon him) from such a humiliating death at the hands of the enemy that plotted to kill the Prophet of God (peace be upon him), to think that God will allow his Prophet to be killed in such a way is absurd. 

Jesus survived the cross so Christians are not saved. Your very own scriptures are against you. In Hebrews 5:7, we clearly see that GOD Almighty had heard Jesus' cries to save him from death.

Hebrews 5:7-8

7  During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 
8  Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

No one said anything about Jesus being the father or tricking anyone. Jesus is not the father. He is the son of God or the Word of God incarnate. 

It is written in the Quran that Allah used deception which is the same tactics of finite human beings. Why would he use the same tactics of unbelievers to scheme, plan and plot for the sole purpose of deception? 

How could that have been from God when the plan failed by being self defeating? 

More Muslims are becoming Christians than Christians are becoming atheistic or Muhammad's followers. Looking a Islam only raises questions; I get no answers! 

There is a difference. Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and life." He didn't say I show the way. There is a difference between being and showing. No other prophet could say "I am" or "No one comes to God except through me" or "I am the way, truth and life."

Care to explain the concept of the trinity Burninglight?? We don't believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) tricked anyone. He is neither the son of God nor God incarnate. God does not have a son, and to think that God could be incarnate violates the oneness of God, which Islam teaches. Jesus (peace be upon him) never proclaimed that He was God, so where do Christians get this from??. God is just one (indivisible) and no one can be held equal to God and this is exactly the message Jesus (peace be upon him) came with something Christians deny Nd ignore.

The names and attributes of God are far beyond the 
characteristics of humans, this is where Christians went wrong giving God the attributes of God. If humans have compassion God is All-Compassionate. This does not make us God. Seeing as you still cant grasp this "deceiving thing" I shall repeat the same thing, when Allah deceived his enemies such as the enemies of the prophets, it was to derail their plans, their evil plans. I see no evil in that, Allah is helping out his prophets, the good people. Allah does not deceive good people to harm them as Satan does, Allah just plots and plans on his enemies when they plan and plot against him, such as to kill his prophet or harm the Muslims. 

The defeat came when God saved Jesus (peace be upon him) from dying on the cross and upon his return all the lies that were made up in his name will be made apparent and he will testify to being a Muslim and will prostarte to His Lord like a Muslim.

Nope you are wrong Burninglight, there are more Christians becoming either Muslims or Atheist, as they see that Christianity cannot offer them answers whereas Islam has all the answers to life.

 Jesus (peace be upon him) was the way at the time, this does not mean he is God in incarnate or God's son. You need to read the entire chapter Burninglight it is quite clear that you have taken things out of context.

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

No one said anything about Jesus being the father or tricking anyone. Jesus is not the father. He is the son of God or the Word of God incarnate. 

It is written in the Quran that Allah used deception which is the same tactics of finite human beings. Why would he use the same tactics of unbelievers to scheme, plan and plot for the sole purpose of deception? 

How could that have been from God when the plan failed by being self defeating? 

More Muslims are becoming Christians than Christians are becoming atheistic or Muhammad's followers. Looking a Islam only raises questions; I get no answers! 

There is a difference. Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and life." He didn't say I show the way. There is a difference between being and showing. No other prophet could say "I am" or "No one comes to God except through me" or "I am the way, truth and life."

Care to explain the concept of the trinity Burninglight?? We don't believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) tricked anyone. He is neither the son of God nor God incarnate. God does not have a son, and to think that God could be incarnate violates the oneness of God, which Islam teaches. Jesus (peace be upon him) never proclaimed that He was God, so where do Christians get this from??. God is just one (indivisible) and no one can be held equal to God and this is exactly the message Jesus (peace be upon him) came with something Christians deny Nd ignore.

The names and attributes of God are far beyond the 
characteristics of humans, this is where Christians went wrong giving God the attributes of God. If humans have compassion God is All-Compassionate. This does not make us God. Seeing as you still cant grasp this "deceiving thing" I shall repeat the same thing, when Allah deceived his enemies such as the enemies of the prophets, it was to derail their plans, their evil plans. I see no evil in that, Allah is helping out his prophets, the good people. Allah does not deceive good people to harm them as Satan does, Allah just plots and plans on his enemies when they plan and plot against him, such as to kill his prophet or harm the Muslims. 

The defeat came when God saved Jesus (peace be upon him) from dying on the cross and upon his return all the lies that were made up in his name will be made apparent and he will testify to being a Muslim and will prostarte to His Lord like a Muslim.

Nope you are wrong Burninglight, there are more Christians becoming either Muslims or Atheist, as they see that Christianity cannot offer them answers whereas Islam has all the answers to life.

 Jesus (peace be upon him) was the way at the time, this does not mean he is God in incarnate or God's son. You need to read the entire chapter Burninglight it is quite clear that you have taken things out of context.

First of all, try not to misquote me. I didn’t say God (The father) incarnate; I said the word of God incarnate. The Bible states that God is Spirit and that Jesus is the word of God and that God is Holy. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit. God made man in His image and likeness. I am a soul. I have a body and I have a spirit. Am I three people? God can make His word flesh and the father God can send His Spirit to inhabit people. You ask me to explain, but we are not taught how God is able to make His Spirit and Word distinct persons, or how God created the heavens, but who am I to put limits on what God can or cannot do? IMO, you do so presumptuously.

The defeat came when Allah saved Jesus from the cross? I thought that was when the deception came. You say Jesus is not the son of God and he didn’t die, but that calls both God and Jesus a liar; for instance, God said: “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him� Jesus predicted His death three times. Are you saying Jesus is a false prophet or that He and God lied?

Jesus said, “I am the way, truth and life..No man comes to the father (God) except through me� He said “no one.� That means no one at any time since the beginning of creation. He didn't say I show the way for now. Again there is a big difference between being and showing. Jesus is the "Being" "the be" or "the I am"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus is the word of God who always existed uncreated and eternal. God exalts His word above His name. Since the beginning, God’s people had His uncorrupted word who wasn’t yet made flesh yet until Jesus was born of a virgin (Islam’s virgin birth story is a borrowed concept from Christianity)

You say you don’t believe Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Did it occur to you that both the Quran and the Bible call Jesus the word of God/Allah except the Bible elaborated on it in detail? If Jesus is the word of God or a word from Allah as stated in the Quran, and He didn’t come in the flesh, what did He come in? lol, do you see how ridiculous your argument or reasoning is based on your religion? That is why I am a believer without a religion; I have a relationship with God through Christ not a religion. I don't need a religion. Religion is what you promote, and that is all it is to me.

What am I taking out of context? Jesus said “I am� before Abraham. Did it occur to you that “I am� is a form of be. Allah said “Be� and it is. Jesus is the “Be� God used to create us and the worlds. At first Jesus came for the Jews, but they rejected Him, and now, God is inviting all. Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with Him and He with me� Rev 3:20

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

First of all, try not to misquote me. I didn’t say God (The father) incarnate; I said the word of God incarnate. The Bible states that God is Spirit and that Jesus is the word of God and that God is Holy. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit. God made man in His image and likeness. I am a soul. I have a body and I have a spirit. Am I three people? God can make His word flesh and the father God can send His Spirit to inhabit people. You ask me to explain, but we are not taught how God is able to make His Spirit and Word distinct persons, or how God created the heavens, but who am I to put limits on what God can or cannot do? IMO, you do so presumptuously. 

The defeat came when Allah saved Jesus from the cross? I thought that was when the deception came. You say Jesus is not the son of God and he didn’t die, but that calls both God and Jesus a liar; for instance, God said: “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him� Jesus predicted His death three times. Are you saying Jesus is a false prophet or that He and God lied? 

Jesus said, “I am the way, truth and life..No man comes to the father (God) except through me� He said “no one.� That means no one at any time since the beginning of creation. He didn't say I show the way for now. Again there is a big difference between being and showing. Jesus is the "Being" "the be" or "the I am"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Jesus is the word of God who always existed uncreated and eternal. God exalts His word above His name. Since the beginning, God’s people had His uncorrupted word who wasn’t yet made flesh yet until Jesus was born of a virgin (Islam’s virgin birth story is a borrowed concept from Christianity) 

You say you don’t believe Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Did it occur to you that both the Quran and the Bible call Jesus the word of God/Allah except the Bible elaborated on it in detail? If Jesus is the word of God or a word from Allah as stated in the Quran, and He didn’t come in the flesh, what did He come in? lol, do you see how ridiculous your argument or reasoning is based on your religion? That is why I am a believer without a religion; I have a relationship with God through Christ not a religion. I don't need a religion. Religion is what you promote, and that is all it is to me. 

What am I taking out of context? Jesus said “I am� before Abraham. Did it occur to you that “I am� is a form of be. Allah said “Be� and it is. Jesus is the “Be� God used to create us and the worlds. At first Jesus came for the Jews, but they rejected Him, and now, God is inviting all. Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with Him and He with me� Rev 3:20

Do not Christians believe that Jesus is God, meaning God is incarnate??? There can only be two possibilities here Burninglight, either Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word of God, as you have stated meaning God incarnate as Christians believe, otherwise  he could not be referred to as "Jesus is the word of God" or that he spoke the word of God, the latter of the two being correct as he was a Prophet sent by God to convey the message. Trinitarians often like to claim that they have a monotheistic belief, and that the Trinity is not the worship of 3 Gods rather it is the worship of One God. This is incorrect the Trinity is made up of three people, these three people are all different than one another.
 
Now Christians say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, the Father is God, and so is the Holy Spirit. So therefore if you have three people, and each one of them is God then what are you left with? You are left with THREE Gods! This is logic!  

We as Muslims speak of God as to what He has told us of Himself, unlike Christianity who has made up the concept of Christianity which is no where to be found in your scriptures that can explain what you have just explained.

You are mistaken Burninglight neither God nor Jesus (peace be upon him) are liars the only liars are those that have changed your scriptures. God never said that He has a son, He is far above what Christians say,  nor did Jesus (peace be upon him) proclaim such a thing.

Give me the verse where Jesus (peace be upon him) predicted His death three times. As mentioned previously the term "son of God" does not mean much , the disciples also said they were the son of God, so did Jesus (peace be upon him) this does not mean in the literal sense. Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed he is the son of God, not even once. So maybe you can tell us why his disciples explicitly stated he is the son of God???

As for Jesus (peace be upon him) saying "I am the way" if we are to back up a little and read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said: 

"In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."

Further, the verse  clearly states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the "WAY" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the "DESTINATION" which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place, in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam. 

Your own scripture, the bible says God cannot change and that he is All-Knowing. But the new testament teaches that Jesus (peace be upon him) did change and that he didn't even know the day or hour of his return, so then how can Jesus (peace be upon him) be God if he doesn't even have these essential attributes of God? Jesus never changed, he is always the same, so this means he was always bound by the flesh and in need of things, and that my friend does not work.

We as Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the teachings and words of God, we do not give Jesus (peace be upon him) the attributes of God making him God as Christians do, He was a Prophet of God like all other Prophets that came in the form of a human with human attributes. What you fail to realize and deny is that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the message of worshipping Allah as he was a Muslim. Your relationship with God is neither justified by God nor did Jesus (peace be upon him) teach such a thing. - going through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get to God??

Therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) came for a group of people whereas the seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind which you find a mention in both the original Torah and Gospel. 

Moreover throughout the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) is recorded to have made many claims regarding how God Almighty is Higher and Greater than him. These statements should be clear enough to demonstrate and prove that Jesus (peace be upon him) is no more than a creation of God Almighty. So all Christians have are a few verses that supposedly prove otherwise, that Jesus is God Almighty Himself. One example is Jesus saying "I am" however what Christians ignore and again deny is that this is a deliberate mistranslation of Jesus saying "I am" proven by  the Greek language. Jesus did Not Say "I AM".  He rather said, "I HAVE (seen Abraham before he was even born)". 

So let's look at the evidence,  Burninglight, and not deny the truth, how about it??

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

First of all, try not to misquote me. I didn’t say God (The father) incarnate; I said the word of God incarnate. The Bible states that God is Spirit and that Jesus is the word of God and that God is Holy. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit. God made man in His image and likeness. I am a soul. I have a body and I have a spirit. Am I three people? God can make His word flesh and the father God can send His Spirit to inhabit people. You ask me to explain, but we are not taught how God is able to make His Spirit and Word distinct persons, or how God created the heavens, but who am I to put limits on what God can or cannot do? IMO, you do so presumptuously. 

The defeat came when Allah saved Jesus from the cross? I thought that was when the deception came. You say Jesus is not the son of God and he didn’t die, but that calls both God and Jesus a liar; for instance, God said: “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him� Jesus predicted His death three times. Are you saying Jesus is a false prophet or that He and God lied? 

Jesus said, “I am the way, truth and life..No man comes to the father (God) except through me� He said “no one.� That means no one at any time since the beginning of creation. He didn't say I show the way for now. Again there is a big difference between being and showing. Jesus is the "Being" "the be" or "the I am"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Jesus is the word of God who always existed uncreated and eternal. God exalts His word above His name. Since the beginning, God’s people had His uncorrupted word who wasn’t yet made flesh yet until Jesus was born of a virgin (Islam’s virgin birth story is a borrowed concept from Christianity) 

You say you don’t believe Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Did it occur to you that both the Quran and the Bible call Jesus the word of God/Allah except the Bible elaborated on it in detail? If Jesus is the word of God or a word from Allah as stated in the Quran, and He didn’t come in the flesh, what did He come in? lol, do you see how ridiculous your argument or reasoning is based on your religion? That is why I am a believer without a religion; I have a relationship with God through Christ not a religion. I don't need a religion. Religion is what you promote, and that is all it is to me. 

What am I taking out of context? Jesus said “I am� before Abraham. Did it occur to you that “I am� is a form of be. Allah said “Be� and it is. Jesus is the “Be� God used to create us and the worlds. At first Jesus came for the Jews, but they rejected Him, and now, God is inviting all. Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with Him and He with me� Rev 3:20

Do not Christians believe that Jesus is God, meaning God is incarnate??? There can only be two possibilities here Burninglight, either Jesus (peace be upon him) is the word of God, as you have stated meaning God incarnate as Christians believe, otherwise  he could not be referred to as "Jesus is the word of God" or that he spoke the word of God, the latter of the two being correct as he was a Prophet sent by God to convey the message. Trinitarians often like to claim that they have a monotheistic belief, and that the Trinity is not the worship of 3 Gods rather it is the worship of One God. This is incorrect the Trinity is made up of three people, these three people are all different than one another.
 
Now Christians say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, the Father is God, and so is the Holy Spirit. So therefore if you have three people, and each one of them is God then what are you left with? You are left with THREE Gods! This is logic!  

We as Muslims speak of God as to what He has told us of Himself, unlike Christianity who has made up the concept of Christianity which is no where to be found in your scriptures that can explain what you have just explained.

You are mistaken Burninglight neither God nor Jesus (peace be upon him) are liars the only liars are those that have changed your scriptures. God never said that He has a son, He is far above what Christians say,  nor did Jesus (peace be upon him) proclaim such a thing.

Give me the verse where Jesus (peace be upon him) predicted His death three times. As mentioned previously the term "son of God" does not mean much , the disciples also said they were the son of God, so did Jesus (peace be upon him) this does not mean in the literal sense. Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed he is the son of God, not even once. So maybe you can tell us why his disciples explicitly stated he is the son of God???

As for Jesus (peace be upon him) saying "I am the way" if we are to back up a little and read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said: 

"In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."

Further, the verse  clearly states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the "WAY" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the "DESTINATION" which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place, in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam. 

Your own scripture, the bible says God cannot change and that he is All-Knowing. But the new testament teaches that Jesus (peace be upon him) did change and that he didn't even know the day or hour of his return, so then how can Jesus (peace be upon him) be God if he doesn't even have these essential attributes of God? Jesus never changed, he is always the same, so this means he was always bound by the flesh and in need of things, and that my friend does not work.

We as Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the teachings and words of God, we do not give Jesus (peace be upon him) the attributes of God making him God as Christians do, He was a Prophet of God like all other Prophets that came in the form of a human with human attributes. What you fail to realize and deny is that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with the message of worshipping Allah as he was a Muslim. Your relationship with God is neither justified by God nor did Jesus (peace be upon him) teach such a thing. - going through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get to God??

Therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) came for a group of people whereas the seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind which you find a mention in both the original Torah and Gospel. 

Moreover throughout the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) is recorded to have made many claims regarding how God Almighty is Higher and Greater than him. These statements should be clear enough to demonstrate and prove that Jesus (peace be upon him) is no more than a creation of God Almighty. So all Christians have are a few verses that supposedly prove otherwise, that Jesus is God Almighty Himself. One example is Jesus saying "I am" however what Christians ignore and again deny is that this is a deliberate mistranslation of Jesus saying "I am" proven by  the Greek language. Jesus did Not Say "I AM".  He rather said, "I HAVE (seen Abraham before he was even born)". 

So let's look at the evidence,  Burninglight, and not deny the truth, how about it??

If I were Muslim, I would ask the following: "Why do we believe the same as Christians in the virgin birth? How come we don't know why Jesus had to have been born of virgin but Christians do? Since Christians were the first to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, why don't we accept their explanation for the virgin birth especially since none was given to us?

Why didn't Allah show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit instead of implying Jesus, Mary and Allah? Why do we Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God?

Since we and the Christians believe Jesus is the word of God, and Christians believe there is a connection to that and Him being virgin born, why don't we believe like the Christians that Jesus is eternal and uncreated? How can the word of God not be eternal and uncreated??? Why do we say we don't believe the word of God became flesh if Jesus (the word of God) was born as the son of man and Mary was His natural mother?"

I honestly believe these are the types of question that would anger the prophet or God of Islam! I have hundreds of question like these that just come to me as I read the Quran or listen to Muslim arguments. The biggest deal to me is that Islam is a reaction to Catholicism, and they never had a true concept of Biblical Christianity. Christianity is not a reaction to any religion and it comes from fulfilling of prophecy in the OT and the NT.

Additionally, one thing you should understand is that unlike the Quran the Bible was not written as a dictation but by men that were inspired by God and also by the testimony of witnesses. You are not going to find perfect scientific line up like it is supposed to be with the Quran but is not either.

Just think of a group of people going to a football game. After the game they give accounts of what happened. The accounts will be different, but that doesn't mean they are not speaking truth. That is an example and brought up for illustration purposes. When I look at it this way I don't have a problem, but I would if someone said Jesus is not the son of God or he didn't really rise from the dead; then that would cause my world to turn upside down.

Now regarding the virgin birth of Jesus being written and documented in the NT Bible first and not the OT should make you at least wonder did Islam get this from Christianity. After all Muhammad had a Christian friend who knew about the book of Matthew that speaks of Jesus' Immaculate Conception. If I were a follower of Muhammad, I would see red flags. Is it not written to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah? Is it not true you must mention or associate the name Muhammad with Allah in your shahada. Is it not true that one can infer that Muhammad and Allah had misconceptions about the trinity as I have already demonstrated? Is it not true that there was documentation already in print from Galen and Hippocrates before the Quran that gives the Quranic explanation of the birth process or embryology?

I never said Jesus was God (the father) become flesh. I said Jesus is the word of God become flesh. Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God created us in His image and likeness according to Scripture. I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body. Am I three different people? God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit; Jesus is God's word Jn 1. and the Quran says he is God's word as well. God doesn't explain how His Holiness and Word are distinct persons but we know God said "This my Beloved son..." We know that Jesus is the word God used to speak all into existence.
We know Jesus has the monopoly on all that is called God. The father is greater in office, function and position, but they are equal in nature, essence and character. Do you not take my word that in the Bible Jesus predicted His death 3 X?

[Choir Loft]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

Do not be confused about Muslim pretexts of truth. There isn't any in this "me too" religion.

Consider that the Qur'an states "Allah is the best deceiver".
So answer me one simple question.....

If Allah is the best deceiver/liar, how can you believe anything Allah says?

How do you know when Allah isn't lying?

Bear in mind that Islam is a concept religion. By that I mean its a loose mixture of Judaism, Christianity and desert pagan pantheism. Add to that quite a bit of brutality, thievery and murder (read Surah 9 in the Qur'an itself)* and you've got modern Islam. It hasn't changed for centuries and those who believe it has are just dreaming.

The prophet Mohammad, who received most of the Qur'an from an angel (Gabriel - the 'official explanation') or what is most likely a demon (the prophet admitted it himself stating at one point that the spiritual entity assaulted him into submission), died in the year 630 AD (or 632, but who's counting). That means Christianity enjoyed nearly six and a half centuries of growth and prosperity before the founder of Islam went to his reward.

Before Mohammad there was no historical Islam. Hadith literature attempts to confuse the issue by stating earlier persons were founders after a fashion (Abraham, Ishmael, Moses and even Jesus/'Isa' in the Qur'an). Its not confusing at all if the reader simply remembers that Islam isn't really a religion in its own right. It's borrowed too much from elsewhere and bullies everyone into believing otherwise.

Finally I'd like to pass on a personal experience I had with four Muslims.

I'd been studying the text of the Qur'an and had a simple question that none of the Muslims I asked could answer. They responded by asking me why I was reading the Qur'an. I replied that I wanted to understand where their beliefs came from.

To which they answered that I shouldn't read the Qur'an at all because it's too confusing.

Bottom line is that I did finish the book and did read it from cover to cover.
There is indeed evidence of great confusion in its pages and the credit for it goes to its author - not God, not an angel and not a demon, but an illiterate extremely violent man.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

* Surah 9 contains the passages most often used to justify jihad, or murderous war against unbelievers.

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

Do not be confused about Muslim pretexts of truth. There isn't any in this "me too" religion.

Consider that the Qur'an states "Allah is the best deceiver".
So answer me one simple question.....

If Allah is the best deceiver/liar, how can you believe anything Allah says?

How do you know when Allah isn't lying?

Bear in mind that Islam is a concept religion. By that I mean its a loose mixture of Judaism, Christianity and desert pagan pantheism. Add to that quite a bit of brutality, thievery and murder (read Surah 9 in the Qur'an itself)* and you've got modern Islam. It hasn't changed for centuries and those who believe it has are just dreaming.

The prophet Mohammad, who received most of the Qur'an from an angel (Gabriel - the 'official explanation') or what is most likely a demon (the prophet admitted it himself stating at one point that the spiritual entity assaulted him into submission), died in the year 630 AD (or 632, but who's counting). That means Christianity enjoyed nearly six and a half centuries of growth and prosperity before the founder of Islam went to his reward.

Before Mohammad there was no historical Islam. Hadith literature attempts to confuse the issue by stating earlier persons were founders after a fashion (Abraham, Ishmael, Moses and even Jesus/'Isa' in the Qur'an). Its not confusing at all if the reader simply remembers that Islam isn't really a religion in its own right. It's borrowed too much from elsewhere and bullies everyone into believing otherwise.

Finally I'd like to pass on a personal experience I had with four Muslims.

I'd been studying the text of the Qur'an and had a simple question that none of the Muslims I asked could answer. They responded by asking me why I was reading the Qur'an. I replied that I wanted to understand where their beliefs came from.

To which they answered that I shouldn't read the Qur'an at all because it's too confusing.

Bottom line is that I did finish the book and did read it from cover to cover.
There is indeed evidence of great confusion in its pages and the credit for it goes to its author - not God, not an angel and not a demon, but an illiterate extremely violent man.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

* Surah 9 contains the passages most often used to justify jihad, or murderous war against unbelievers.

I agree, but I didn't understand what you meant by "Do not be confused about Muslim pretexts of truth. There isn't any in this "me too" religion." Maybe it is because, I am not confused about Islam, I just want to show Muslims they should be, and since God is not the author of confusion, they might get the hint. They have to see on their own with God's help, but there is some truth in every religion, but it is that little bit of deception that kills the soul.

I say I am confused not to be rude and to get them to think before responding. But it seems that the friend of Islam is deception and ignorance. Jesus said "The truth will set your free" and yet the truth from the one they say they love has become Islam's enemy along with the knowledge that comes with Christ.

Islam is a reaction to Catholicism. Muslims haven't been able gainsay anything I said so far. They do try, but when they cannot, they either report me, ban me or stop posting. I don't think banning is fair especially when they do it without a warning.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

If I were Muslim, I would ask the following: "Why do we believe the same as Christians in the virgin birth? How come we don't know why Jesus had to have been born of virgin but Christians do? Since Christians were the first to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, why don't we accept their explanation for the virgin birth especially since none was given to us? 

Why didn't Allah show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit instead of implying Jesus, Mary and Allah? Why do we Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God? 

Since we and the Christians believe Jesus is the word of God, and Christians believe there is a connection to that and Him being virgin born, why don't we believe like the Christians that Jesus is eternal and uncreated? How can the word of God not be eternal and uncreated??? Why do we say we don't believe the word of God became flesh if Jesus (the word of God) was born as the son of man and Mary was His natural mother?" 

I honestly believe these are the types of question that would anger the prophet or God of Islam! I have hundreds of question like these that just come to me as I read the Quran or listen to Muslim arguments. The biggest deal to me is that Islam is a reaction to Catholicism, and they never had a true concept of Biblical Christianity. Christianity is not a reaction to any religion and it comes from fulfilling of prophecy in the OT and the NT. 

Additionally, one thing you should understand is that unlike the Quran the Bible was not written as a dictation but by men that were inspired by God and also by the testimony of witnesses. You are not going to find perfect scientific line up like it is supposed to be with the Quran but is not either. 

Just think of a group of people going to a football game. After the game they give accounts of what happened. The accounts will be different, but that doesn't mean they are not speaking truth. That is an example and brought up for illustration purposes. When I look at it this way I don't have a problem, but I would if someone said Jesus is not the son of God or he didn't really rise from the dead; then that would cause my world to turn upside down. 

Now regarding the virgin birth of Jesus being written and documented in the NT Bible first and not the OT should make you at least wonder did Islam get this from Christianity. After all Muhammad had a Christian friend who knew about the book of Matthew that speaks of Jesus' Immaculate Conception. If I were a follower of Muhammad, I would see red flags. Is it not written to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah? Is it not true you must mention or associate the name Muhammad with Allah in your shahada. Is it not true that one can infer that Muhammad and Allah had misconceptions about the trinity as I have already demonstrated? Is it not true that there was documentation already in print from Galen and Hippocrates before the Quran that gives the Quranic explanation of the birth process or embryology? 

I never said Jesus was God (the father) become flesh. I said Jesus is the word of God become flesh. Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God created us in His image and likeness according to Scripture. I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body. Am I three different people? God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit; Jesus is God's word Jn 1. and the Quran says he is God's word as well. God doesn't explain how His Holiness and Word are distinct persons but we know God said "This my Beloved son..." We know that Jesus is the word God used to speak all into existence. 
We know Jesus has the monopoly on all that is called God. The father is greater in office, function and position, but they are equal in nature, essence and character. Do you not take my word that in the Bible Jesus predicted His death 3 X?

The answer to your question is because the same God that sent Jesus (peace be upon him) sent Muhammad (peace be upon him) and all the other Prophets that came with the same message. It is the same God that revealed the Torah, Gospel and Quran. It is very clear from the Quran that Jesus (peace be upon him) was born from a virgin birth, God makes the position of Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother Mary (may Allah he pleased with her) very clear.

Both Muslims and Christians agree that this was a mighty miracle and sign from God, however the difference between us and the Christian arise when we discuss why the virgin birth was done, both of us have different reasons, we as Muslims believe that one of the reasons for the virgin birth is, Allah wanted to make Jesus (peace be upon him) as a sign for man. What this basically means is that Allah wanted the virgin birth to signify a mighty miracle and mighty proof and sign of God, because such a thing was impossible and unthinkable, and that the only way that such a thing could happen is only if a divine being carried this act out.

Therefore Burninglight I would be more concerned asking myself why the earliest parts of the New Testament such as the Pauline epistles, do not mention the virgin birth, nor do the Gospels of Mark or John???

You are obviously not reading my posts if you are still insisting that Allah did not know what the Christians believe the Trinity is, the verse you quoted isn't even dealing with the trinity, there are verses of the Quran that deal with this false belief. I suggest you read my posts and get back to me addressing the issues raised. There are no contradictions in the Quran, this is false. The current day bibles have been changed by man and unless these men you claim have been inspired by God are Prophets or Messengers that were sent by God then no one has the right to change God's laws in which God already sent Jesus (peace be upon him) with. Who decides who is inspired by God man or God??? 

As for the word of God becoming flesh it is apparent from your very own scriptures that this is not possible Burninglight, so can you explain this contradiction then?? God cannot do what you claim, in fact your own book testifies to that:
 
 Num 23:19:  

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
 
 Malachi 3:6:

 "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
 
So your own Bible says no he cannot do that, these verses say that God is not like a man, basically what that means is that God does not share the same characteristics as us humans do in general. So those verses basically establish that God is not like a man, that he is different than us, in the way he acts and does things.
 
However so, if Jesus (peace be upon him) limited himself and so on, then this means he became like a man, he became exactly like all us humans, he ate, he slept, he cried, and finally he died. This totally contradicts the OT as it says God is not like a man, meaning God does not eat, does not sleep, nor does he die. The fact That Jesus (peace be upon him) became like a man ( not became a man),  proves he cannot be God since the God is not like a man and never will, he is above what Christians attribute to Him, the All-Mighty. There is no correlation between the virgin birth and God's word becoming  flesh.

Therefore these types of questions have already been answered in the Quran, as God has already conveyed to us the falseness of what Christians have created from the real teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). The Quran confirms what came before it and speaks of where the Jews and Christians went wrong in their beliefs. 

Burninglight this idea the entire Bible, OT and NT are all inspired books of God, and revelations from God and so is a false claim. When one reads the Gospel of Luke, we see that this book is not revealed by God unto Luke, nor inspired by God neither. The very first chapter and verses of the Gospel of Luke show us that this book is not inspired, nor revealed by God, as Luke himself said:

Luke 1

"For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,  2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;  3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,  4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

As we can see, Luke is not inspired by God nor receives any revelations from God, Luke simply says that it will be good for him to also write an account of things that happened, the things which are believed among the people. Also Luke writes this Gospel simply for a man named Theophilus so that he believes in these things. So basically the Gospel of Luke was written addressed to one man, and simply a work of collecting quotes, and information from eye-witness accounts.

So one must ask how in the world is the Gospel of Luke an inspiration and revelation from God? 

Different accounts of the same thing would be accepted provided there is legitimate proof for this however when their are conflicting accounts and totally different accounts then this need be rejected this is the case with Christianity too many conflicting accounts and no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God's son or that he rose from the dead. 

No red flags here!!! The God of the Gospel is the same God of the Quran, if we as Muslims copied the virgin birth as you claim then why would we claim the same God revealed the Gospel. One would think that we would dent such a thing, furthermore you are wrong in saying the Quran says:

"to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah"

In the contrary it says:

QURAN: 3:32

"Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger......"

As for the Shahada, can you point out the association??

The English translation is :

“I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.�

This is in fact rejecting any form of association by making it clear that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is only a Messenger of God and that there is no other worthy of worship but Allah.

As for Galen and Hippocrates I am happy to have a detailed discussion on this topic proving that what the Quran describes of embryology was not mentioned in any book prior to the Quran.

Trinitarian Christians always seem to maintain that Genesis 1:26-27 and are prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is false. When one examines the bible it will become clear that the image and likeness that are mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27 are nothing but metaphoric speech!

Moreover your "I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body" analogy isn't going to work, here is 
 is the problem, Christians say that each person in the Trinity is God, remember Christians say Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God. So therefore using the Christian Trinity doctrine, that would basically mean that the husband is a family, the wife is a family, and the son is also a family!!!!!!! In a family we say that the husband wife and son MAKE UP A FAMILLY, we do not say that each specific member of the family is the family!

More to the point the use of "Son of God" in ancient times meant no more than a righteous Servant and Chosen one of GOD Almighty, this does not mean anything!, hence I cannot take the word of the bible as truth as what is truth and falsehood is not apparent due to many changed and abrogations.