Traditional Witchcraft & Wicca

[Ankhhape]

This is a continuation from another thread on Witchcraft.
I would like to discuss/debate the similarity/differences between what is termed; Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca.

Please, anyone jump in as I formulate my opinion.

[Serpent Oracle]

This is a continuation from another thread on Witchcraft.
I would like to discuss/debate the similarity/differences between what is termed; Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca.

Please, anyone jump in as I formulate my opinion.

Certainly I am interested because I can't call myself of the traditional witchcraft because I do not believe in Gods of any kind, nor can I fully trust any source that claims to represent the Old Craft accurately, given the constraints of oral tradition.

I do not hold with traditional Wiccan beliefs either, however they seem to be quite wide ranging and inclusive these days.

Personally, I am not sure that witches can be grouped into categories like religious sects.

[Divine Insight]

I would like to discuss/debate the similarity/differences between what is termed; Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca.

I could write a book on this topic. Not as an "authority" mind you. But rather I simply mean that I have much to say about it.

I don't mind "discussing" the topic. But I really have no interest in "debating" it as I believe that it would be virtually impossible to firmly support, or deny, any specific position.

Having said all of the above, I will be glad to share my views for whatever they are worth.

Let me begin from an Eastern Mystical perspective

I may be informative to understand that "Wicca" and/or "Witchcraft as a well-defined religious tradition", did not fully come to my attention until after I had studied many Eastern Mystical philosophies, mainly the many forms of Buddhism and Taoism.

The history of Buddhism had a somewhat "circular path" (Geographically speaking). It began in India as an offshoot of Hinduism, mirgrated into China, then up into Japan, and finally back down along the cost back toward India again.

This is not to say that it didn't also have paths that also reach as far west as Egypt, but those paths are less clear.

Taoism (and Tantra Buddhism which is combination of Buddhism and Taoism) moved more toward Tibet, central and even northwestern China and even Europe via that northerly route. It's my belief that the early Celtics were actually descendents of Chinese Taoists and Shamans.

It was actually by following this path that partially lead me to "Wicca" or "Traditional Witchcraft" if there is such a thing.

So I personally view these ancient Celtic religions to potentially be early European forms of Chinese Taoism and Shamanism.

Of course these religions then became highly "tainted" and affected by the Abrahamic religious views as well as the Greek religions that were both also migrating into Europe from the Mediterranean region. Christianity clearly playing a very large role in this influence.

Now let's move on to look at "Traditional Witchcraft" as a potential "religion".

"Traditional Witchcraft" as a religion

Well, at this point we must qualify what "Traditions" we're talking about. Obviously we'd be talking about European Traditions. Because clearly "Witchcraft" itself was being practices in various forms all over the world. The Chinese Shamans were already casting circles and so forth. American Indians had their own "witchdoctors" as did Africa, and South America, you name. In fact, there have been books published that look into the common beliefs and practices of various types of "witchcraft" from all of the globe.

So when we speak of "Traditional Witchcraft" we must specify precisely what "traditions" we are attempting to pin down.

Even in the case of Europe it can easily be argued, and demonstrated from historical evidence that there were many different 'traditions' throughout Europe that could be classified as "witchcraft" type of spiritual beliefs.

It is my own personal opinion (and the opinion of many scholars who have studied these things) that there is really no single "tradition" that can be pointed to as being "very well-defined". In fact, the cultures that practiced witchcraft did not right anything down for two reasons:\

1. Their traditions were innately taught via oral stories and folklore.
2. Later, because of Christian persecution it was simply wise to keep things secret.

In fact, many of the traditions when into "Occult" (total secrecy) precisely to avoid Christian persecution and harassment. I personally believe that this is one of the major reasons why some Witchcraft traditions remain quite secretive today. Not because they still fear Christian persecution, but simply because secrecy became part of their traditions and it just kind of stuck.

~~~~~

My own personal views on "Traditional European Witchcraft"

From my perspective there is no concrete blueprint to follow. All we can do is pick and choose from various folklore that calls to us. That is indeed precisely what I do on a personal level.

I am not about to 'argue' that anyone else should do what I do. But at the same time 'arguments' that I should buy into some supposed detailed dogma are going to wash over me like rain water and go right to the ground.

I pick and chose what calls to me from these traditions, and that's what "Witchcraft" meas to me on a personal level today.

~~~~~

Onward to "Wicca"

There is much controversy today over the term "Wicca". Some people claim that it is a religion started by Gerald Gardner around 1930? Supposedly he's the one who coined the term "Wicca" (although I've heard compelling arguments that the term was around long before Gardener used it).

Supposedly the term "Wicca" simply means "Wise one", especially with respect to people who practice natural and spiritual remedies (i.e. appeal to witchcraft).

So there are those that proclaim that while Gardner may have popularize the term he most certainly didn't invent it. Therefore there are arguments to be made that "Wicca" simply means "Witch" (or the practice of witchcraft).

Having said that, Gardner did introduce this term to be consider as the label of a new "religion" called "Wicca". He proposed what the religion should entail and he even had written a Book of Shadows that is supposed to contain the secrets and practices of a long line of "witches" before him. This information was supposedly handed down to him by tradition.

If you accept that this term "Wicca" only applies to Gardener's form of the religion then you'd be stuck having to follow his Book of Shadows verbatim I would think. After all, if you're allow to change the religion that what would be the point to it?

So from that perspective "Wicca" would be nothing more than a highly dogmatic religion based solely on Gerald Gardner's Book of Shadows as their "Holy Bible".

However, it's highly unlikely that very many people view "Wicca" in that way.

What I see happening in today's modern world on a far larger scale are people doing precisely what I do. They pick and choose from the rich European folklore of "witchcraft" and put together a personal version of the paradigm to suit what calls to them. And they call that "Wicca".

I personally feel that this is cool. I personally think it's the way things should be.

And so for me, that's how I view "Wicca". To me, its simply the modern day abstract view of Witchcraft traditions. And I feel that is has merit as such.

~~~~~

Objections!

There do exist "Wiccan Covens" that become highly upset if anyone calls an abstract approach to "Witchcraft" Wicca. They demand that you must join their "Traditional Coven" and be initiated and trained by them. Otherwise they renounce that you have anything at all to do with "Wicca".

To me, that's just a gross example of what religions often do. They fall into the trap of trying to own the religion and demand how everyone else must view it.

It's really not unlike the Christians trying to own Jesus. Only in this case it Wiccans trying to own the Moon Goddess, etc.

That's my personal view on that. And it's just an opinion. One that I have no desire to "debate". I'm never going to join any possessive secretive covens, so it really doesn't make any difference to me anyway.

Wicca as an Abstract Spirituality

One argument that is often given is that if a person is free to just 'make up their own Wicca' then what meaning does it have?

Well, as was already mentioned, if the term is truly referring to "Traditional European Witchcraft" then it would clearly need to include many of those elements. And since it claims to be "Wicca" it should include at least some of the elements of religion that Gerald Gardner eluded to.

Rather than write out a description here I would simply point to Christopher Penczak's "Temple of Witchcraft" series of book. As far as I'm concerned he describes the essence of "Wicca" pretty well.

And I realize that he didn't call it "The Temple of Wicca". He called it "The Temple of Witchcraft". But if you read his views they couldn't be more Wiccan.

He totally supports the idea of a Goddess, and God associated with the Moon and the Sun and he totally supports the moral value of "Harming None". And he also covers just about everything that has to do with "Wicca".

In fact, many people will argue that he has very little to with "Witchcraft" per say (i. e. witchcraft without Wicca). The reason being that there are many people who claim to be "witches" and/or practice "witchcraft" who do not believe in any Gods.

Penczak is totally all about the Goddess and God and the rede of "Harming None". It's far more than just 'witchcraft". Its Wicca, the religion in abstract from. Just the way I like it.

So for me, that's modern day "Wicca".

I have no need to "debate" it. It's just my view and I have no interest in changing my view. Nor do I have any interest in changing anyone else's views.

If someone takes the stance that everything I said here is garbage, more power to them.

It's just my own personal view. It's how I see it, and how I "practice" it.

My Wicca Paradigm

I'm not about to explain my Wicca paradigm here, but I'd just like to say that it is quite beautiful and quite detailed and involved, and while I appreciate Penczak's abstract guidance, my paradigm is quite my own, and I have not taken much of anything from Penczak in terms of absolute concrete rituals or paradigms. None the less, his abstract philosophy and explanations have been very helpful.

[Ankhhape]

Well, I must say that Divine Insight's well written post just about says it all.
Before the word Witchcraft was termed, the practice can be traced to the Palaeolithic era, in the forms of shamanism and nature worship.

Cults in Greece such as the Cult of Hekate, furthered the Tradition, the Gauls, Celts, and Northern Italy kept the Tradition alive.

I would say that Wicca is a branch of Traditional Witchcraft (Le Vecchia Religione).
That Wicca has a code of ethics and morals, Traditional Witchcraft is ethically set by the individual or Grove/Coven. For instance Luciferian Witchcraft's moral and ethical codes might surprise you, as would Stregherian Witchcraft.

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

[Serpent Oracle]

Divine Insight states:

''What I see happening in today's modern world on a far larger scale are people doing precisely what I do. They pick and choose from the rich European folklore of "witchcraft" and put together a personal version of the paradigm to suit what calls to them. And they call that "Wicca".

I personally feel that this is cool. I personally think it's the way things should be.

And so for me, that's how I view "Wicca". To me, its simply the modern day abstract view of Witchcraft traditions. And I feel that is has merit as such.''

I personally think it's the way things should be

Total and utter agreement DI.

If only more people realised that.

Then we get rid of all organised religion.

[Serpent Oracle]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

[Ankhhape]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

[Divine Insight]

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Individualism?

[Ankhhape]

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Individualism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism

[Divine Insight]

I was actually suggesting that Individualism might be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions. Because all religious beliefs and traditions are ultimately nothing more than some individual's philosophical or superstitious idea that slowly gained a following.


So Individualism is the common thread thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions.