Traditional Witchcraft & Wicca

[Ankhhape]

This is a continuation from another thread on Witchcraft.
I would like to discuss/debate the similarity/differences between what is termed; Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca.

Please, anyone jump in as I formulate my opinion.

[Divine Insight]

If your spiritual goal is to get out of the dream you've got to stop clinging to future expectations, because that very act is nothing more than a desire to keep on dreaming.

I have not the faintest idea what you are talking about, you sound preachy though....I do not accept your perspective premise however, I cope better with want and suffering...your metaphor is too alien for my mind.

You must understand that you know nothing about my spiritual goal(s), if I even have such a thing...

If I have got the wrong end of the stick I apologise...I am extremely intolerant, spiny, hostile and defensive by nature...I do my best to resist these impulses....so take no notice.

My deepest and most sincere apologies to you as well.

I have made the most common and grave mistake a person can make and I do it all the time. It's a mistake I can't seem to get past.

When I typed in the sentence, "If your spiritual goal is to get out of the dream you've got to stop clinging to future expectations, because that very act is nothing more than a desire to keep on dreaming"

What I really meant to type was, "If a person's spiritual goal is to get out of the dream they've got to stop clinging to future expectations, because that very act is nothing more than a desire to keep on dreaming"

I never meant for the "you" in that statement to indicate that this was your spiritual goal.

So yes, please accept my apologies on that one.

[Serpent Oracle]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Don't interpret ALL literally...I take some from ALL...obviously some concepts are completely opposed to others...I have to of course inject my individualist spin and preferences, as I reject and accept or consider...I try to be objective...I am not deluding myself that I am creating the 'one true religion' or something.

Just the vision of the Serpent Oracle...which may or may not be closer to the truth than other visions, I like to imagine it is.

Taking what you like from whatever Belief system is an approach that many modern occultists practice, particularly in Chaos Magick.

I have never found there to be a common thread in all religions concerning morality, violence, or materialism. The approach to each of these can greatly differ from System to System.

The common thread for example concerning violence and the teachings that prohibit it can be found in many religions, as I said I did not mean ALL religions, I meant threads common or concordant to many religions and I included all known belief systems as well (to me), not just theistic religions.

Not ALL religions prohibit violence and many are self contradictory about it...but that does not matter...it is like mining for gemstones amongst worthless rubble.

I can agree, this is a daunting task, I would just like to point out that some religions, such as our Darker ones, are not in compliance with most of the typical religious teachings. AND . . . yes, there has always been some form of hypocritical thing going on anyway in ALL religions (perhaps THAT is the common denominator of all religion?).

I guess at the end of the day...and to use a vile metaphor...I just want a 'religion' that ticks all the boxes.

Does it embrace the scientific principles of observation and investigation?
Does it allow for individualism?
Does it empower by helping people come to terms with their identity and place in the grand scheme of things?
Does it reveal in part at least some altruistic truth of reality?
Does it uphold the principles of humanism?
Does it encourage ethical behaviour?
Does it stand for the the most vulnerable in society?
Does it contradict itself? (a non tick in this case)

etc..

[Divine Insight]

I guess at the end of the day...and to use a vile metaphor...I just want a 'religion' that ticks all the boxes.

I feel similar. Just for fun I thought about your question with respect to my choose religious philosophies. Just to see how I would answer your questions with respect to these religions. Now it's true that these religions have different characteristic and perspective, but in my view they don't conflict with one another, but they may add a different perspective. And this is indeed why I chose to continually "practice" (or keep in mind) principles and values from all three.

My three chosen religions are:

1. Taoism
2. Buddhism
3. Wicca (a very personally-tailored solitary version of it)

Each one adds value in different areas. I might also mention at this point that I actually view Taoism and Buddhism more along the lines of philosophical and moral teachings, whereas I tend to view Wicca more along the lines of a paradigm that loans itself very well to religious psychic rituals thus providing a nice vehicle to psychically help to implement the philosophy and moral values of the first two.

I thought I'd share my results of toying with your questions for whatever they're worth.

Does it embrace the scientific principles of observation and investigation?

1. Taoism (yes)
2. Buddhism (yes)
3. Wicca (my personally-tailored solitary version does, yes)

Does it allow for individualism?

1. Taoism *(yes and no)
2. Buddhism *(yes and no)
3. Wicca (most definitely yes)

* The philosophies of Taoism and Buddhism are questionable in this regard because they view the ego as an illusion. So this can depend quite a bit on what is meant by individualism. These philosophies are pantheistic and basically suggest that you'll never be truly 'happy' focusing on individualism. It's not until you realize that you're merely a drop of water in an ocean of life that you begin to see your true nature. But clearly, there is no question that the "individual" drops of water that make up this ocean of life, have some form of individual identity themselves.

Learning how to deal with this very concept is a large part of what both Taoism and Buddhism focus on. But in Wicca, the ego can be embrace with the same passion as in Christianity.

I think this is the main reason that I retain Taoism and Buddhism in my spiritual philosophy. They continually grapple with the very concept of individualism at a very profound and deep level.

Does it empower by helping people come to terms with their identity and place in the grand scheme of things?

1. Taoism (yes)
2. Buddhism (yes)
3. Wicca (yes)

I have to answer yes in all three cases here, but once again I think they deal with this in slightly different ways.

Taoism and Buddhism basically deal with this in terms of individualism versus the whole. And their main point is that it's not going to work well as long as this is seen as "versus" or a war between these two concepts. Their underlying philosophies are an attempt to meld these two concepts together as a seamless whole.

Wicca (or at least my personal version of it) deals with this by offering many rituals, paradigms and psychic journeys into visions of how the individual can best serve the whole. So almost ironically, my *Wicca separates individualism completely from the whole, and then asks "How can his individual entity best serve the whole?"

I might note here also that I've tailored and designed my Wicca from the vantage point of philosophies gained from Taoism and Buddhism. So it should come as no surprise that my personally tailored Wicca would be influenced by what I brought with me into Wicca.

Does it reveal in part at least some altruistic truth of reality?

1. Taoism (yes)
2. Buddhism (yes)
3. Wicca *(yes? no?)

But again further comments are in order:

Altruism - showing unselfish concern for the welfare of others.

Taoism and Buddhism most certain do because they are both pantheistic, thus teaching us that we must view everyone as being equal to ourselves, and both of these philosophy hold to the Golden Rule as being sane common sense. Thus we should be concerned at least as much about the welfare of others as we are with our own welfare. I'm not so sure that either of these philosophies suggest that we should go overboard in the sense of knowingly doing damage to ourselves for the sake of the welfare of another. After all, our own welfare should be at least as important as the welfare of another too.

Having said, that I'd most likely risk my life to save the life of another without philosophizing about it in the moment. My instinct would be to save the other. I might even be stupid enough to risk my life to save the life of an animal which is utterly stupid, but again, it would be an instinctual act, rather than a philosophically analyzed act.

In Wicca, I've certainly embraced the Rede of "Harm none". But that's not really altruistic. All it says it not to harm others, it doesn't suggest that we should necessarily be helping others.

*So I see nothing in Wicca that necessarily support altruism. I marked "yes" for my own personal variation on Wicca, because I bring that value into my Wicca with me, but in truth, perhaps I should have checked it as "no" since that value didn't actually come from Wicca originally?

Does it uphold the principles of humanism?

I had to look up this term to see precisely what you mean by it. I found the following definition which you may or may not agree with:

Humanism - An outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

1. Taoism (not appllicable)
2. Buddhism (not applicable)
3. Wicca (definitely not? Maybe also not applicable?)

Taoism and Buddhism are both founded in a pantheistic view of life meaning "All is God" or "All is Divine". To to even make a distinction between the human and the divine is to miss the point of these philosophies altogether. So the question is meaningless with Taoism and Buddhism.

In terms of Wicca, the focus is suppose to be on the God and Goddess and appealing to their divine insight and guidance. I think the original idea is not unlike the Christian view. In other words, many Wiccans may view the God and Goddess of Wicca as actual personified Gods that must be worshiped and revered, even potentially pleased.

However, I view Wicca more as a psychic journey, so for me the images of the God and Goddess are indeed just that, psychic images. Images that are created in my mind in an attempt to commune with the cosmic consciousness, the higher self, the consciousness that is the ultimate source of all life. But at the same time I see myself as being at least a facet of this very same cosmic consciousness (i.e. the pantheistic view). So I actually embrace Wicca from a pantheistic view as well, which is certainly embraced by many others who hold this to be totally acceptable in modern "Wicca". Naturally there will exist some who will oppose this view, but I don't concern myself with naysayers.

Does it encourage ethical behaviour?

1. Taoism (yes)
2. Buddhism (yes)
3. Wicca (yes) (again speaking of my paradigm of Wicca)

Does it stand for the the most vulnerable in society?

See the question on altruism. It's basically the same question.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I'd like to have people help me when I'm down or falling through the cracks, so it only makes sense that I should do this for others.

Does it contradict itself?

1. Taoism (no)
2. Buddhism (no)
3. Wicca (no for me)

Some people have suggested to me that it's contradictory to hold Wicca up as a model for pantheism since Wicca clearly recognizes a "God" and "Goddess", but like I had previously mentioned, for me, those are just psychic archetypes for my own mind, and not to be taken to imply the existence of actual personified god-heads. That's the only source of potential self-contradiction I'm aware of, and for me it doesn't amount to a contradiction.

~~~~

Just to clarify. I posted these answers just for fun and to share since I went through them to satisfy my own curiosity anyway. So I figured I may as well post the results.

[Serpent Oracle]

I read that with interest DI, I know little about Taosim and I now resolve to look into it further.
Of course there are more criteria and if I thought very hard about it would probably come up with at least a dozen other conditions to satisfy.

Another is an almost holy/mystical reverence for nature and all living things and their environment...I think for any TRUE religion that could actually be benign, that is a prerequisite.
Here I strongly identify & sympathise with New agers and other modern pagan movements...including Wicca.
Of course Buddhism also is very clear about respect for all life...no matter how small and insignficant it may seem to be.
One can only approve strongly of that ethos.

[Ankhhape]

Great posts! We're on to something here

Being a Ritualist I embrace the philosophy behind Chaos Magic. One of the core principles is designing One's own paradigm from available paradigms and from imagination. This includes the design of One's own Belief System and Magickal System (if one is so inclined to magick). Picking and choosing what works and doesn't for you.

[Serpent Oracle]

This includes the design of One's own Belief System and Magickal System (if one is so inclined to magick). Picking and choosing what works and doesn't for you.

I guess on some subconcious levels everyone does this...accepting it conciously as you describe however is a different matter...and I like the sound of it.
Something I do myself in fact.
Something so abstract and subjective and personal cannot be given to you from without, like a Holy Book, it has to be the product of your seeking, your learning, your search for divinity, the oversoul, the godhead, whatever.
I am drawn to gnosis and other esoteric forms of knowledge...because I have unfortunately experienced prescience and other phenomena, I know these things can sometimes be explained in terms of statistical probability, satisfactorily to the skeptical mind, but I remain suspicious...
Unfortunately again recounted personal experience is not good evidence for anything however.
So I sometimes feel like the Hanged man in the Tarot set...suspended upside down and disorientated and paralysed by seemingly conflicting data....hence why I come to sites like this...to exhange ideas with interested people and better formulate a philosphical/religous 'model' if you will.
So to you and DI thanks for responses...appreciated.