The witch of Endor

[Burninglight]

When the prophet Samuel told King Saul he lost his Kingdom because of his rebellion against God. He started taking matters into his own hands. After prophet Samuel's death he was troubled. He still wanted the prophet's blessing. So he went to the witch of Endor. The witch was afraid, because they put witches to death back then, but King Saul promised her protection. He wanted her to conjure up the prophet Samuel, and when she did, she totally freaked out when he showed up.
I couldn't understand why she freaked out nor could I understand why she was able to move the hand of God to allow the prophet of God to show up at her beckoning. I have an idea what happen, but I like to hear someone elses opinion as to what they think happened.

[Divine Insight]

You can quiz me if you think I don't understand exactly where you're coming from. I will pass the quiz and you cat won't be able to respond. You believe the Hebrew God is a hard task master, but you don't believe Him to be real.

I never called the Hebrew God a "Hard Taskmaster". That's your term.

On the contrary I call the Hebrew fictitious God a completely idiot incapable of solving a single idolatry problem. Incapable of communicating clearly with his creation. And a monstrous heartless fool if he's been standing around for over 2000 years silently watching innocent midwives being burned at a stake in his name, and suicide bombers blowing things up in his name, etc.

If he can't recognize that there is some GROSS MISUNDERSTANDINGS going on by now Burninglight, then he couldn't be any more sentient than my cat either.

To not intervene and clear up the miscommunication would be criminally insane irresponsible behavior. For only HE would be capable of clearing things up.

The fact that he's not doing that is all the proof anyone should need to know that he can't possibly exist.

but you have somewhat of a problem friend. That is about 5 billion people in the world do, and that is better that 3/4 of the worlds population. Now that is almost like saying "I am okay; the whole world is crazy."

It wouldn't be the whole world, it would only be 3/4 of it.

And, yes it sure appears that way to me. Not only in terms of religious beliefs, but in terms of being obsessed with greed, any many other things.

Just look at the world's populations? What are they doing? They are all spending far more money than they take in. Their competition-driven economies are falling apart and collapsing.

And what do the masses do about? They protest to the governments wanting the governments to magically bail them out.

We're destroying our planet's environment with our "throw-away" wasteful approach to greedy industrial and marketing practices. And we're not even showing a remote recognition of the real problems. We just keep on trucking along. Listen to any radio or TV and you'll see commercials that are still continually trying to get people to buy all sorts of wasteful disposable products etc.

Yes, Burninglight, I recognize that I live on "The Planet of the Apes", and that most of the apes are still acting like lowly un-evolved monkeys.

All those people can't be as dumb as your cat!

I wouldn't bet on that if I were you. In fact, my cat actually seems far more intelligent and responsible. He just can't communicate his views is all.

[Burninglight]

You can quiz me if you think I don't understand exactly where you're coming from. I will pass the quiz and you cat won't be able to respond. You believe the Hebrew God is a hard task master, but you don't believe Him to be real.

I never called the Hebrew God a "Hard Taskmaster". That's your term.

On the contrary I call the Hebrew fictitious God a completely idiot incapable of solving a single idolatry problem. Incapable of communicating clearly with his creation. And a monstrous heartless fool if he's been standing around for over 2000 years silently watching innocent midwives being burned at a stake in his name, and suicide bombers blowing things up in his name, etc.

If he can't recognize that there is some GROSS MISUNDERSTANDINGS going on by now Burninglight, then he couldn't be any more sentient than my cat either.

To not intervene and clear up the miscommunication would be criminally insane irresponsible behavior. For only HE would be capable of clearing things up.

The fact that he's not doing that is all the proof anyone should need to know that he can't possibly exist.

but you have somewhat of a problem friend. That is about 5 billion people in the world do, and that is better that 3/4 of the worlds population. Now that is almost like saying "I am okay; the whole world is crazy."

It wouldn't be the whole world, it would only be 3/4 of it.

And, yes it sure appears that way to me. Not only in terms of religious beliefs, but in terms of being obsessed with greed, any many other things.

Just look at the world's populations? What are they doing? They are all spending far more money than they take in. Their competition-driven economies are falling apart and collapsing.

And what do the masses do about? They protest to the governments wanting the governments to magically bail them out.

We're destroying our planet's environment with our "throw-away" wasteful approach to greedy industrial and marketing practices. And we're not even showing a remote recognition of the real problems. We just keep on trucking along. Listen to any radio or TV and you'll see commercials that are still continually trying to get people to buy all sorts of wasteful disposable products etc.

Yes, Burninglight, I recognize that I live on "The Planet of the Apes", and that most of the apes are still acting like lowly un-evolved monkeys.

All those people can't be as dumb as your cat!

I wouldn't bet on that if I were you. In fact, my cat actually seems far more intelligent and responsible. He just can't communicate his views is all.

All you say about greed and the government is true. It is truly disgusting, but I'd still take you up on a wager that is about your cat and 3/4 of the world. You will lose big time.

Jesus did say wide is the gate and board is the way that leads to destruction and many go therein, but straight and narrow is the way that leads to life. Few they be that find it.

Look you do have good arguments, but you still won't go far with them, because it is written that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death. I have all my confidence in what you call a monstrous God. BTW, that is even worse than a hard task master.

[Divine Insight]

All you say about greed and the government is true. It is truly disgusting, but I'd still take you up on a wager that is about your cat and 3/4 of the world. You will lose big time.

So you're suggesting that your God of Christianity should believed in as a "Safe Bet"?

I thought you were supposed to love that God with all your heart, soul, and mind?

It's pretty said that the best you can do is believe in him as a "Safe Bet" just because that appears to be where the masses are placing their chips.

It's obvious to me why the masses fell for this religious brainwashing scheme as well as why it has been propagated onto the masses like a spreading cancer.

It was originally forced onto people. Starting with Constantine proclaiming Christianity as the "Official Religion" of Rome. Ever since then the religion has been shoved down people's throats literally at sword-point and threats of deaths, or actual murders!

Threats of social outcast at the very least. These kind of threats were in place throughout most of history. Not only in Christianity, but also in Islam where it is deemed blasphemy to speak out against "God" or the religion of Islam.

That's why these religion contaminated so much of the world's populations. With Christianity the brainwashing scheme took the form of "evangelism" where it is seen as the "Duty" of a Christian to spread the Gospel of Christ and convert people into accepting him as "The Christ" lest they be warned that they will suffer extreme and dire consequences.

It's no surprise to me that these "Jealous God" religions have infested the bulk of humanity. I too recognize them as a cancer on society.

And by the way, you've been scammed again if you believe that 3/4 of the world believe as you do. That's yet another Christian lie. In order to lay claim to that large of a percentage of the world's population you must include Islam in with your Christianity, as well as Judaism. And you also must combine Catholicism with the myriad of protesting Protestantisms as well.

I just looked up the following graph for world religions:



According to this graph you claim that 3/4 of the world believes in the Christian God is wrong. At best you can only claim half the world, and even then you must include Islam to do that.

By this graph, at best only 1/3 of the world believes in Jesus. And that's even highly questionable truly because when taking surveys like this they often go by what people check on surveys and a LOT of people check Christianity when in truth they're really agnostic at best. They just claim to be Christians because it's the most socially acceptable think to claim in a lot of situations.

Jesus did say wide is the gate and board is the way that leads to destruction and many go therein, but straight and narrow is the way that leads to life. Few they be that find it.

Well there you go. Even Jesus recognized that God is a LOSER. He obviously loses the vast majority of souls that he creates.

Why would a creator create such a situation where the vast majority of souls he creates end up in destruction? If I were that inefficient of a creator I would have serious ethical problems with creating any souls at all.

Why should I create souls if the vast majority of them will end up in disaster?

In fact anyone who believes this would have to be a fool to give birth to a new soul, IMHO.

If this is true humans should refuse to propagate the species right NOW!

In fact, Adam and Eve should have refused to have any more babies way back when.

Look you do have good arguments, but you still won't go far with them, because it is written that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death.

There you go with that "It is written" baloney again. So what?

Things are "written" about the Greek Gods too, that doesn't make you run off to worship Zeus. Clearly just because something was written down doesn't make it true.

I have all my confidence in what you call a monstrous God. BTW, that is even worse than a hard task master.

Yes it is worse. And that's why these Hebrew fables can't possibly be true.

These Hebrews created such a powerful brainwashing scheme that it has contaminated half the world's population into believing that some God is out to get them and will most certainly get them if they fail to believe in him!

How utterly ironic is that?

This brainwashing scheme has succeeded in convincing people that a God who they don't believe in will hurt them for not believing in him!

People are so gullible and paranoid that this frightens them so much they try extremely hard to have "faith" that such a hateful monstrous God actually exists just to avoid his hateful wrath. And most of them even CONFESS that they are finding it increasingly difficult to keep up this utterly absurd faith. But they keep trying because they don't want to be damned to hell for having "lost the faith".

How utterly oxymoronic is that?

You'll have to pardon me, but I can't help but seeing this situation as being utterly insane.

People trying very hard to "keep the faith" that some God will condemn them to hell if they fail to "keep the faith".

When are people going to wake-up and realize the absurdity of this scam?

Instead they try hard to convince others to but into it. No doubt to help support their own faith. After all, if they can convince other people to buy into it, then they won't need feel so ashamed about having bought into it themselves.

Clearly you yourself are appealing to this very ideal, "Look! This many other people fell for it. Therefore it can't be that stupid!"

Unfortunately what the masses do is not an indication of intelligent behavior which I had already pointed out about non-religious topics.

If the masses can be that stupid about everyday practical things, why can't the be just as stupid when it come to falling for unproven superstitions?

[Burninglight]

All you say about greed and the government is true. It is truly disgusting, but I'd still take you up on a wager that is about your cat and 3/4 of the world. You will lose big time.

So you're suggesting that your God of Christianity should believed in as a "Safe Bet"?

I thought you were supposed to love that God with all your heart, soul, and mind?

It's pretty said that the best you can do is believe in him as a "Safe Bet" just because that appears to be where the masses are placing their chips.

It's obvious to me why the masses fell for this religious brainwashing scheme as well as why it has been propagated onto the masses like a spreading cancer.

It was originally forced onto people. Starting with Constantine proclaiming Christianity as the "Official Religion" of Rome. Ever since then the religion has been shoved down people's throats literally at sword-point and threats of deaths, or actual murders!

Threats of social outcast at the very least. These kind of threats were in place throughout most of history. Not only in Christianity, but also in Islam where it is deemed blasphemy to speak out against "God" or the religion of Islam.

That's why these religion contaminated so much of the world's populations. With Christianity the brainwashing scheme took the form of "evangelism" where it is seen as the "Duty" of a Christian to spread the Gospel of Christ and convert people into accepting him as "The Christ" lest they be warned that they will suffer extreme and dire consequences.

It's no surprise to me that these "Jealous God" religions have infested the bulk of humanity. I too recognize them as a cancer on society.

And by the way, you've been scammed again if you believe that 3/4 of the world believe as you do. That's yet another Christian lie. In order to lay claim to that large of a percentage of the world's population you must include Islam in with your Christianity, as well as Judaism. And you also must combine Catholicism with the myriad of protesting Protestantisms as well.

I just looked up the following graph for world religions:



According to this graph you claim that 3/4 of the world believes in the Christian God is wrong. At best you can only claim half the world, and even then you must include Islam to do that.

By this graph, at best only 1/3 of the world believes in Jesus. And that's even highly questionable truly because when taking surveys like this they often go by what people check on surveys and a LOT of people check Christianity when in truth they're really agnostic at best. They just claim to be Christians because it's the most socially acceptable think to claim in a lot of situations.

Jesus did say wide is the gate and board is the way that leads to destruction and many go therein, but straight and narrow is the way that leads to life. Few they be that find it.

Well there you go. Even Jesus recognized that God is a LOSER. He obviously loses the vast majority of souls that he creates.

Why would a creator create such a situation where the vast majority of souls he creates end up in destruction? If I were that inefficient of a creator I would have serious ethical problems with creating any souls at all.

Why should I create souls if the vast majority of them will end up in disaster?

In fact anyone who believes this would have to be a fool to give birth to a new soul, IMHO.

If this is true humans should refuse to propagate the species right NOW!

In fact, Adam and Eve should have refused to have any more babies way back when.

Look you do have good arguments, but you still won't go far with them, because it is written that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death.

There you go with that "It is written" baloney again. So what?

Things are "written" about the Greek Gods too, that doesn't make you run off to worship Zeus. Clearly just because something was written down doesn't make it true.

I have all my confidence in what you call a monstrous God. BTW, that is even worse than a hard task master.

Yes it is worse. And that's why these Hebrew fables can't possibly be true.

These Hebrews created such a powerful brainwashing scheme that it has contaminated half the world's population into believing that some God is out to get them and will most certainly get them if they fail to believe in him!

How utterly ironic is that?

This brainwashing scheme has succeeded in convincing people that a God who they don't believe in will hurt them for not believing in him!

People are so gullible and paranoid that this frightens them so much they try extremely hard to have "faith" that such a hateful monstrous God actually exists just to avoid his hateful wrath. And most of them even CONFESS that they are finding it increasingly difficult to keep up this utterly absurd faith. But they keep trying because they don't want to be damned to hell for having "lost the faith".

How utterly oxymoronic is that?

You'll have to pardon me, but I can't help but seeing this situation as being utterly insane.

People trying very hard to "keep the faith" that some God will condemn them to hell if they fail to "keep the faith".

When are people going to wake-up and realize the absurdity of this scam?

Instead they try hard to convince others to but into it. No doubt to help support their own faith. After all, if they can convince other people to buy into it, then they won't need feel so ashamed about having bought into it themselves.

Clearly you yourself are appealing to this very ideal, "Look! This many other people fell for it. Therefore it can't be that stupid!"

Unfortunately what the masses do is not an indication of intelligent behavior which I had already pointed out about non-religious topics.

If the masses can be that stupid about everyday practical things, why can't the be just as stupid when it come to falling for unproven superstitions?

I though i said about 3/4 believe in the Hebrew God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A more accurate estimation would be 2/3 if that graph is correct; nevertheless, that is still most of the worlds population which was the point I was trying to make and made.
Christianity didn't start with Constantine. He didn't write the Bible nor did the Council of Nicea. They corrupted the Catholic Church. That is why I left Catholicism, but make no mistake the Hebrew God is the only God who chose to manifest Himself through His chosen people. When people mess with God's own, they are sticking their finger in the apple of His eye. How monstrous would you get if someone get poking their finger in your eye?

Paul said he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly. So, I believe I am now a grafted in Jew who is the apple of God's eye. I know who I am in Christ and I know my name is written in the Lamb's Book of life and that no one can separate me from the love of Christ. All true Biblical Christians see it this way. Now that graph would be significantly reduced to a minority to say the least if you take out all Muslims and nominal Christians.

[Divine Insight]

How monstrous would you get if someone get poking their finger in your eye?

I wouldn't stand by and allow people to be burned at a stake in my name.

I wouldn't stand by and allow people to flies planes into world trade centers in my name.

I wouldn't stand by and allow people to blow themselves up taking others with them in my name.

I wouldn't play hide-and-seek with souls that I create.

I would even be creating souls if I thought is was a crap-shoot where they might end up.

According the entire Hebrew mythology their fictional God does all these things and even already knows that the "vast majority" of souls that he creates will end up in eternal damnation.

Thus the biblical God is a crap-shooter who shoots craps with human souls and loses that vast majority of the time.

Yes, if I was that disgusting I'd deserve to be poked in the eye.

Someone should do something to wake me up to the evil nature of my ways.

~~~~~

You are apparently in love with an idea of a "Christ".

Fine. I don't want to burst your bubble on that one.

But you seem to be totally missing the point of the dastardly God your "Christ" would be saving you from.

And this is supposed to be the same God? Or have you made "The Christ" into a totally separate God in his own right separate from the God of Abraham?

You have a monotheistic schizophrenic trinity where one potentially benevolent face of God is trying to save you from the other evil face of God?

If you're happy with that situation more power to you. But I'm not interested. I don't care how many monkeys believe in it. It's a man-made fear-based mythology as far as I'm concerned.

If it turns out that our creator is actually like that all I can say is that I would be so thoroughly disappointed in him that it wouldn't even matter if he cast me into his hateful hell at that point.

There's no way I could love such an irresponsible hateful deity in any case.

So even if the religion were true all it would mean to me is that my creator is disgusting.

How sad a reality that would be.

As I've said before, pure secular atheism would be a far prettier picture.

I'd rather just cease to exist when my body dies than to have been created by a heartless, and even sadistic, God who shoots craps with the souls he creates in his endless childish games of "hide-and-seek".

"Believe in me or I punish you for eternity!"

"And all I'll give you to go on are totally confused, irrational, rumors that were clearly written by a male-chauvinistic culture who are supposedly my chosen people"


Yeah right.

An all-wise, all-powerful, all-supreme being would play that game?

I don't think so.

There's nothing all-wise, all-powerful, or all-supreme about it.

That's the simple truth Burninglight.

[Burninglight]

How monstrous would you get if someone get poking their finger in your eye?

I wouldn't stand by and allow people to be burned at a stake in my name.

I wouldn't stand by and allow people to flies planes into world trade centers in my name.

I wouldn't stand by and allow people to blow themselves up taking others with them in my name.

I wouldn't play hide-and-seek with souls that I create.

I would even be creating souls if I thought is was a crap-shoot where they might end up.

According the entire Hebrew mythology their fictional God does all these things and even already knows that the "vast majority" of souls that he creates will end up in eternal damnation.

Thus the biblical God is a crap-shooter who shoots craps with human souls and loses that vast majority of the time.

Yes, if I was that disgusting I'd deserve to be poked in the eye.

Someone should do something to wake me up to the evil nature of my ways.

~~~~~

You are apparently in love with an idea of a "Christ".

Fine. I don't want to burst your bubble on that one.

But you seem to be totally missing the point of the dastardly God your "Christ" would be saving you from.

And this is supposed to be the same God? Or have you made "The Christ" into a totally separate God in his own right separate from the God of Abraham?

You have a monotheistic schizophrenic trinity where one potentially benevolent face of God is trying to save you from the other evil face of God?

If you're happy with that situation more power to you. But I'm not interested. I don't care how many monkeys believe in it. It's a man-made fear-based mythology as far as I'm concerned.

If it turns out that our creator is actually like that all I can say is that I would be so thoroughly disappointed in him that it wouldn't even matter if he cast me into his hateful hell at that point.

There's no way I could love such an irresponsible hateful deity in any case.

So even if the religion were true all it would mean to me is that my creator is disgusting.

How sad a reality that would be.

As I've said before, pure secular atheism would be a far prettier picture.

I'd rather just cease to exist when my body dies than to have been created by a heartless, and even sadistic, God who shoots craps with the souls he creates in his endless childish games of "hide-and-seek".

"Believe in me or I punish you for eternity!"

"And all I'll give you to go on are totally confused, irrational, rumors that were clearly written by a male-chauvinistic culture who are supposedly my chosen people"


Yeah right.

An all-wise, all-powerful, all-supreme being would play that game?

I don't think so.

There's nothing all-wise, all-powerful, or all-supreme about it.

That's the simple truth Burninglight.

Divine Insight:

I don't know what to say. You seem like a very nice intelligent person to me. I would be lying if I said it didn't disturb my spirit to see someone hate the God I love so much. It also disturbs me to hear you say you would rather go to hell than be with the Hebrew God and Jesus the son of God.
I wish I could convince you to see the way I do. I understand how you can see things the way you do. IMHO, you have grave misconceptions about the Biblical God who never sanctioned flying planes into building or burning people to stakes like Nero did to Christians. I believe God in His sovereignty allows man to make choices and reap what he sows.

Many times the sin of others effects innocent people, but this life is not the end. There is the hereafter, and there is the present and the future return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. God will perfectly make things right. He does test people. Some people pass His test some get discouraged and give up. Some get bitter and many are defiled. It is written: "Beware lest any root of bitterness spring up in you whereby many be defiled" You my friend have a great potential to defile many with the articulate way you defame the biblical God of Christianity!

[Divine Insight]

I don't know what to say. You seem like a very nice intelligent person to me. I would be lying if I said it didn't disturb my spirit to see someone hate the God I love so much.

Well actually I don't, in two entirely separate and different ways.

First, I don't hate the Hebrew God anymore than you hate Zeus. From my perspective the fables are so utterly absurd that they can only be fictitious superstitions. And that's really all I've been saying all along. I'm simply saying that "From my perspective" the God described in these Hebrew fables is so ignorant and malicious that that the fables can't possibly be true.

So there's nothing to "hate". Although I do confess, that if such a God was real I would indeed be quite upset with him for not stepping in when innocence women were being tortured and burned alive in his name. To me, that would be absolutely inexcusable. But I don't believe that any such God exists. Therefore there is nothing to "hate".

Secondly, the God that you have created in your mind from these fables is an entirely different picture of God altogether. Clearly you love Jesus, and you just sweep anything that doesn't make sense about the God of Abraham under the carpet or just assume that it can somehow be justified.

So you've "justified" the God in your mind. So in your mind you've created a just God, in spite of what the fables have to say about it.

It also disturbs me to hear you say you would rather go to hell than be with the Hebrew God and Jesus the son of God.

I can only go by how the Hebrews describe their "God". And no, I would not want to live under the rule of the God that they describe.

It's that simple.

I also wouldn't want to go to any heaven where I wasn't worthy of being there on my own merit. Why would I want to go to a heaven based solely on grace? Knowing all along that I'm not worthy of being their on my own merit.

After all, I supposedly didn't even create myself. If I'm that screwed up, it could only be because my creator didn't design me very well.

The whole thing makes no sense at all Burninglight. Every human being is unworthy of heaven? What does that say about the creator?

I wish I could convince you to see the way I do. I understand how you can see things the way you do. IMHO, you have grave misconceptions about the Biblical God who never sanctioned flying planes into building or burning people to stakes like Nero did to Christians. I believe God in His sovereignty allows man to make choices and reap what he sows.

You believe on FAITH that God is good no matter what.

Well, guess what Burninglight, so do I.

That's precisely why I don't believe in the Hebrew picture of God.

Many times the sin of others effects innocent people, but this life is not the end. There is the hereafter, and there is the present and the future return of Christ to judge the living and the dead.

I see absolutely no reason to believe such superstitions. But clearly you do, and obviously they bother you intensely. If you are so concerned about my relationship with God (or anyone else's relationship with God other than our own relationship with him), then your religion is a great burden on you.

Why should you be so concerned about the fate of other people? Do you believe that your God is unfair, unjust, or untrustworthy?

If not, then why are you so concerned that your God might cast undeserving people into a hell fire or whatever?

And why should such an extreme fate be dealt out to someone for merely not believing in utterly absurd stories?

How in the world do you justify such unjust actions?

Non-belief cannot be sufficient reason to cast someone into hell.

And as I've even pointed out but you refuse to see it, even Jesus himself pleaded with God to forgive people who know not what they do. Do you think Jesus was wrong? And what about the claims in the Bible that all judgement has been given to the Son, and the Father judgeth no man?

Of all judgement has been given to Jesus, and Jesus forgives people who know not what they do, then all non-believers would be forgiven by your Christ.

So what are you so worried about? Do you not TRUST your Christ?

Apparently I trust Jesus more than you do!

God will perfectly make things right.

Why didn't he do that the first time around instead of creating a dog-eat-dog world where animals eat each other to survive, and disease infects humans?

He does test people. Some people pass His test some get discouraged and give up. Some get bitter and many are defiled. It is written: "Beware lest any root of bitterness spring up in you whereby many be defiled" You my friend have a great potential to defile many with the articulate way you defame the biblical God of Christianity!

And I will never stop. Because these superstitious rumors have caused too many heartaches already.

It pains me to watch Christians use Jesus as an excuse to belittle other people.

IMHO, that's about as anti-Jesus as you can get.

And when you suggest that I'm "out of favor" with Jesus that's your judgement call on me!

You are judging my relationship with Jesus based entirely on RELIGION.

Who are you to do that?

This is why Christianity is so utterly despicable. It causes people to go around judging others in Jesus' name simply because they don't buy into a bigoted hypocritical religion that doesn't even remotely reflect the principles that Jesus even taught.

[Burninglight]

I don't know what to say. You seem like a very nice intelligent person to me. I would be lying if I said it didn't disturb my spirit to see someone hate the God I love so much.

Well actually I don't, in two entirely separate and different ways.

First, I don't hate the Hebrew God anymore than you hate Zeus. From my perspective the fables are so utterly absurd that they can only be fictitious superstitions. And that's really all I've been saying all along. I'm simply saying that "From my perspective" the God described in these Hebrew fables is so ignorant and malicious that that the fables can't possibly be true.

So there's nothing to "hate". Although I do confess, that if such a God was real I would indeed be quite upset with him for not stepping in when innocence women were being tortured and burned alive in his name. To me, that would be absolutely inexcusable. But I don't believe that any such God exists. Therefore there is nothing to "hate".

Secondly, the God that you have created in your mind from these fables is an entirely different picture of God altogether. Clearly you love Jesus, and you just sweep anything that doesn't make sense about the God of Abraham under the carpet or just assume that it can somehow be justified.

So you've "justified" the God in your mind. So in your mind you've created a just God, in spite of what the fables have to say about it.

It also disturbs me to hear you say you would rather go to hell than be with the Hebrew God and Jesus the son of God.

I can only go by how the Hebrews describe their "God". And no, I would not want to live under the rule of the God that they describe.

It's that simple.

I also wouldn't want to go to any heaven where I wasn't worthy of being there on my own merit. Why would I want to go to a heaven based solely on grace? Knowing all along that I'm not worthy of being their on my own merit.

After all, I supposedly didn't even create myself. If I'm that screwed up, it could only be because my creator didn't design me very well.

The whole thing makes no sense at all Burninglight. Every human being is unworthy of heaven? What does that say about the creator?

I wish I could convince you to see the way I do. I understand how you can see things the way you do. IMHO, you have grave misconceptions about the Biblical God who never sanctioned flying planes into building or burning people to stakes like Nero did to Christians. I believe God in His sovereignty allows man to make choices and reap what he sows.

You believe on FAITH that God is good no matter what.

Well, guess what Burninglight, so do I.

That's precisely why I don't believe in the Hebrew picture of God.

Many times the sin of others effects innocent people, but this life is not the end. There is the hereafter, and there is the present and the future return of Christ to judge the living and the dead.

I see absolutely no reason to believe such superstitions. But clearly you do, and obviously they bother you intensely. If you are so concerned about my relationship with God (or anyone else's relationship with God other than our own relationship with him), then your religion is a great burden on you.

Why should you be so concerned about the fate of other people? Do you believe that your God is unfair, unjust, or untrustworthy?

If not, then why are you so concerned that your God might cast undeserving people into a hell fire or whatever?

And why should such an extreme fate be dealt out to someone for merely not believing in utterly absurd stories?

How in the world do you justify such unjust actions?

Non-belief cannot be sufficient reason to cast someone into hell.

And as I've even pointed out but you refuse to see it, even Jesus himself pleaded with God to forgive people who know not what they do. Do you think Jesus was wrong? And what about the claims in the Bible that all judgement has been given to the Son, and the Father judgeth no man?

Of all judgement has been given to Jesus, and Jesus forgives people who know not what they do, then all non-believers would be forgiven by your Christ.

So what are you so worried about? Do you not TRUST your Christ?

Apparently I trust Jesus more than you do!

God will perfectly make things right.

Why didn't he do that the first time around instead of creating a dog-eat-dog world where animals eat each other to survive, and disease infects humans?

He does test people. Some people pass His test some get discouraged and give up. Some get bitter and many are defiled. It is written: "Beware lest any root of bitterness spring up in you whereby many be defiled" You my friend have a great potential to defile many with the articulate way you defame the biblical God of Christianity!

And I will never stop. Because these superstitious rumors have caused too many heartaches already.

It pains me to watch Christians use Jesus as an excuse to belittle other people.

IMHO, that's about as anti-Jesus as you can get.

And when you suggest that I'm "out of favor" with Jesus that's your judgement call on me!

You are judging my relationship with Jesus based entirely on RELIGION.

Who are you to do that?

This is why Christianity is so utterly despicable. It causes people to go around judging others in Jesus' name simply because they don't buy into a bigoted hypocritical religion that doesn't even remotely reflect the principles that Jesus even taught.

All people justify things they can't understand from time to time. You, for instance, do it with your god as well. You believe in a good god who is perfect and lovely and that would never be as monstrous as the Hebrew God; so, why doesn't or didn't your god step in and save the day where you say the the Hebrew fictitious God failed?
You are more atheist, IMHO, than deist. So who are you trying to fool? When have I judged you in Jesus' name. I haven't, but I have shared verses with you that you see judgment in, but that is not me doing the judging. I believe there is always hope where there is life.

One of the differences between us is that I know I am a sinner and I can't trust to make it to the ceiling of my house let alone heaven on my merit. Jesus said He has come for the sick. I am sick and in need of a great physician, but you are not in such need like me. He is my only hope of glory. I could never merit anything good. Anything good about me is Him and only Him. Look, I respect your choice, and I am not worried about you.

I am not concerned about the things that make no sense in the Bible and there is plenty of things that confuse me, but what really concerns and bothers me is what I do understand. IMHO, it should be that way with you too, but it isn't and I am not going to let it bother me unnecessarily. I wish you well doctor.

[Divine Insight]

All people justify things they can't understand from time to time. You, for instance, do it with your god as well.

There is no such thing as "your God" versus "my God".

Only the Jealous God religions hold that mentality.

There's either a spiritual essence to reality, or their isn't.

If there is, then it's true for everyone, if there isn't then that's true for everyone.

So climb down off that "Your God versus my God" pedestal.

It's that very kind of arrogance that makes the Jealous God religion so utterly disgusting.

You believe in a good god who is perfect and lovely and that would never be as monstrous as the Hebrew God; so, why doesn't or didn't your god step in and save the day where you say the the Hebrew fictitious God failed?

I believe no such thing. I don't believe in personified egotistical Zeus-like Gods.

The very term "God" means something totally different to you than it does to me because you can't climb out of the Jealous God religion that you have accepted.

That religion is causing you a lot of grief evidently because it clearly disturbs you greatly when other people don't believe in it. And that's precisely what make those Jealous God religion so detrimental to humanity.

Not only does it gravely disturb you, but you're very faith in your religion cause you do go around accusing other people of not having a relationship with God simply because they don't worship your idol image of a personified God.

You are more atheist, IMHO, than deist. So who are you trying to fool?

I'm not trying to fool anyone. Every human being on planet Earth is necessarily agnostic unless they have actual proof that some God exists. I have never met a person yet who has convinced me that they have anything more than FAITH.

In fact, any Christian would necessarily be a liar if they said that they had anything more than faith, because the Bible holds out the notion that faith is precisely what you must have.

So all Christians are necessarily agnostic as well, whether they like it or not. They have no knowledge of the existence of any God. All they can possibly have is FAITH that the Hebrew fables are true. It's entirely a faith-based religion.

So who are you trying to fool?

When have I judged you in Jesus' name. I haven't, but I have shared verses with you that you see judgment in, but that is not me doing the judging. I believe there is always hope where there is life.

But you keep talking to me like as if you have judged that I am "not in good with Jesus". That, my friend, can only be your judgement.

I too, have shared with you verses that show that Jesus would have absolutely no reason whatsoever to be upset with me, even according to the fables.

You're the one who's is hell bent on demanding that Jesus has a problem with me.

One of the differences between us is that I know I am a sinner and I can't trust to make it to the ceiling of my house let alone heaven on my merit.

Well, yes, that would be a huge difference between us I suppose. And this explains why the religion makes more sense to you than it does to me.

Jesus said He has come for the sick. I am sick and in need of a great physician, but you are not in such need like me.

That may very well be true, I'm not about to make that decision for you. But yes, I feel that if I were to meet Jesus today he would indeed recognize me as a healthy righteous person. Absolutely. I would expect him to give me a clean bill of spiritual health just like my doctor typically gives me a clean bill of physical health.

I'm sincerely sorry to hear that you don't feel this way. I hope that whatever you've done to make you feel the way you do was not serious and no one was harmed in the process.

I'm not trying to take Jesus away from you. I'll be more than happy to agree that he came to save the sinners, and if you feel that you fit in that category then fine. He's your savior.

But don't be pushing your situation onto me.

He is my only hope of glory. I could never merit anything good. Anything good about me is Him and only Him. Look, I respect your choice, and I am not worried about you.

Well, that's all I ask. Leave my relationship with Jesus between me and him. That's all I ask of you, and all Christians. I don't need to acknowledge that Jesus was "The Christ" in order to recognize that he has 'saved' you. I don't care if he was a Mahayana Buddhist. Evidently he "saved" you in any case. In fact, he could be a totally fictitious character in a fairytale and still have 'saved' you simply because you believe in him. The fables have given you hope and a desire to change your evil ways evidently. So it worked even as a fable.

I am not concerned about the things that make no sense in the Bible and there is plenty of things that confuse me, but what really concerns and bothers me is what I do understand.

Well, if there are plenty of things in the bible that confuse you, or make no sense to you, then clearly you are merely accepting ON FAITH that there can be some sort of justification for those things.

Two things come out of that.

Number 1: Your beliefs are indeed based on faith. And thus you shouldn't be arguing with other people that they too should have faith. Especially when they have their own views on what various things in the Bible mean to them.

Number 2: You certainly shouldn't be on a Christian Debate forum if you yourself are confused about what's in the Bible and plenty of things confuse you, because the very purpose of a "Debate" forum is to question and debate these very things.

If you want to believe in these things on pure faith, why do you put yourself through the torture of joining a forum where the sole purpose is to debate these very things?

You can hardly object to me debating this topic on a public forum that is designed specifically for this purpose.

IMHO, it should be that way with you too, but it isn't and I am not going to let it bother me unnecessarily.

I'm not going to place my faith in a bunch of fables that are riddled with absurdities. Why should I?

Unlike you, I don't feel that I'm unworthy of my creator, or that I'm a sinner unworthy of eternal life or whatever. So I'm certainly not going to be attracted to the religion based on a guilt complex.

I can see how it could be attractive to someone who feels that way though. I imagine that if I had done some really horrible things in my life I might be inclined to seek out a religion that promises forgiveness too. But I have no reason to feel that way.

I have no reason to take this religion away from you. If you want to believe in it, then by all means believe in it.

Why should you want to take my religion away from me?

That's basically what you keep suggesting. You keep suggesting that I should dump my religious faith in favor of exchanging it for a religion that you've decided to place your faith in.

Why should I do that? That would be a major DOWNGRADE.

I'd have to go from believing in a good God to believing in what I see as fables that describe an ignorant and even hateful God.

Why would I want to do that?

[Burninglight]

It is not about my God versus your god nor is a pedestal involved. But we clearly dance to he beat of a different drummer. You don't believe in the God I do nor do you serve Him who doesn't exist to you. I can tell you that the Hebrew God you don't believe in and want nothing to do with is that way for you and will be that way.

Like Bob Dylan sang: "You're gonna have to serve somebody; it might be the Lord it might be the Devil but you gonna have to serve somebody. You want nothing to do with the Biblical God and I want nothing to do with an impersonal cosmic force type benevolent creator that matches no description of the ancient of days.

I know we need to be careful and choose our words carefully for in the multiude of words there is sin that can take the form of self righteousness, arrogance and pride. But sin is anything that separates us from God.. Many people believe in god and have invited him into their lives. It means nothing. The devils believe too and fear and tremble. It makes a difference whether God is in our life or Lord of it.

The God that disgusts you is Lord of my life. He is not even in your life. If you reject Him He rejects you. You will be judged by your works. If you are as good as you say, you have nothing to fear. I am not good. It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Ro 3 & 6: 23. Those who do not believe this literally are facing a literal Christless eternity.

I hate every false way. That is what disgusts me. I am even against myself if what I share is not truth; in light of this, I bind & rebuke Satan and his helpers in the name of Jesus Christ, he shall be exposed and silenced in my presence and in the midst of every true lover of what is good and righteous.