If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
happy forever
Apprentice
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:55 am

If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #1

Post by happy forever »

The Quran is the book of Allah for all humanity, it's Ayats are mercy and guidance.
If you really read it, how didn't you believe in it?

happy forever
Apprentice
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:55 am

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #21

Post by happy forever »

A Troubled Man wrote: LOL. Anything can be translated from one language to another.
Except Quran.

Are you a translator?
I give an Ayah and challenge you to translate it.


"الحمد لله رب العالمين"

"Al Hamd li Allah Rab Al Alameen"
the meaning:
Al: the
Hamd: thank and praise and satisfaction for the graces
li: for and to
Allah: The One True God The Ahad The Creator The Most Merciful
Rab: Lord and master and owner and possessor
Al: the
'Alameen: everything with mind as the humans and Jinns or all creatures in the heavens and the earth.

Here is the first Ayah in the first Surah of The Quran "Al Fatiha" with the meaning of each word, translate it if you can giving the full meaning using the same number of words, a word to a word.

happy forever
Apprentice
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:55 am

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #22

Post by happy forever »

A Troubled Man wrote:
happy forever wrote:
The Quran can be interpreted easily because it is clear but can never be translated.

Translation is to give a word to a word and a meaning to a meaning and this is impossible to happen with Quran because no one human in the world can produce the like of Quran.
I think we've found your problem, you don't know the definition of 'translation'.

Yes, the Quran and anything else can be translated from one language to another. It is the lamest of excuses to say it can't.
What is translation?
Break the challenge first.

happy forever
Apprentice
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:55 am

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #23

Post by happy forever »

A Troubled Man wrote:
happy forever wrote:
Most of Arabic words especially the words in Quran doesn't have its equal in any language but can be explained with many words. If some used one to one word claiming that it gives the equal meaning as happens in the false translation books, he is a liar and is deceiving you. I am a translator and can never be able to translate any Ayah even not easy to give the full meaning and explanation of one Ayah, the connection between words and between sentences and between proverbs, with Ayats themselves and Surahs also, all these have to be taken into consideration in interprating one Ayah in Quran.

This is Quran, the words of Allah, who can read it and doesn't believe in it?
Obviously, if a religion compels people to say such things that are clearly false, it has no value other than to cause conflict. Calling others liars and deceivers after propagating such nonsense is evidence of no morals or ethics contained within.
Trouble Man,

I am an Arab and I read the Quran. Know it first and then judge.

Once you give the translation of the Ayah, I will believe all what you say.

happy forever
Apprentice
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:55 am

Post #24

Post by happy forever »

playhavock wrote:
Thanks for the story. Since you posted it in english, and told that no english translation is possible, only transliteration (same thing basicly) then, I guess your's is the latter. Given what you've posted as a short story, I now see no reasion to bother reading the Korran, thanks for saving me a ton of time.

Heres why I will not bother reading it now: Muhammad claims to recive a message from someone named Allah, addonaly, he (Muhammad) tells someone or someone else things that Muhammad is equal to two people - ah that magical number of two, the Mormans really like that idea as well, because two people are much more convincing then one - but whatever. Anyway this "message" is keeped "In the hearts" and by that I can only assume you meen subjective memory that can change over time, so the orginal message played the telephone game and there is no orginal writing, so we have zero idea what the first message was, at all.

So, basicly its nothing built upon nothing and more nothing. All trust in someone named Muhammad who, at this point I do not even know existed. Do we know where his bones are?

Also, I'd still like to know when the EARLYEST writing of the Koran was writen down by someone because that had to be a thing at some point, if that early writing matches with modern writing then you've at least done better then the Chirstans have in perserving the oldest text you have.

This whole "cant be translated" to english bit is very odd - I guess God is not powerfull enough to get its message into every languge possible? Why, one would almost think that it is said to be only readable in your languge due to tribalisem. Actualy, thats probley the explation.

So, yeah, good job, saved me a ton of time reading your made up myth, thanks :)

What writing you're asking for?!
A book written by a human then lost then found? what is the evidence that these writings are from your Creator?

There are many books of Quran old and new and the oldest and newest all the same and no one press dare to change a word in an Ayah.

Do you think we base our religion and our believing in Allah on papers and inks?
Nay, bro. The Quran once sent is for all, the messengers taught it for all and never kept in a book which only literate can read it or able to change it if they like

Burn all book of Quran, the Quran is here preserved in our hearts, millions of Muslims have it all word by word, vowel by vowel and can't change a slight letter in it.

The messenger is dead and his companions are dead and our hearts will turn to dust but what we and all can never deny is that Quran is with no doubt the literal words of Allah, kept by all in all ages till the end of this lower life. Every Ayah (Ayah means miracle) in it is a miracle because it is the literal words of Allah, was received by Jibril to the messenger to all humanity.
Read it or don't, it is the mercy and light and guidance for all.

User avatar
Suzy
Apprentice
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:54 pm

Post #25

Post by Suzy »

I am studying Islam at the moment and have been reading all the posts by happy forever and its one more step towards rejecting this silly [but dangerous] religion.

We atheists can’t help but look upon theists as having a closed mind to reason sometimes.
But having said that some of the counter arguments from Christians that I have read over the years have been intelligent and made me work hard to counter.

But this is closed mindedness with a vengeance!

Thank you happy forever. You have helped me along the road to understanding the Muslim faith even better.

A Troubled Man
Guru
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:24 am

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #26

Post by A Troubled Man »

happy forever wrote:
A Troubled Man wrote: LOL. Anything can be translated from one language to another.
Except Quran.

Are you a translator?
No, I'm not a translator, and I seriously doubt you are. However, I have learned Russian and am now tackling basic Hiragana. Please note both languages do not use the West Germanic structure typically used in English, German, French, Spanish... languages in which the structure will be familiar from the get go. Learning Russian and Japanese require learning their structures first, which means learning whole new alphabets and what sounds they generate, along with a number of other variables that need to be understood.

The point is that while learning those languages, I had to translate a great deal of words and found that you simply cannot use just one word to translate another, it just doesn't work that way. This is not a problem at all, because even though there may be a requirement to use several words to properly translate one language to another, the meaning and understanding always maintains its relevance.

Yes, there are many words that translate one word to another, but there are also words that require more than one word to fully grasp the meaning of that word. And, it is often that these discrepancies arise simply due to the underlying structures of the languages. But again, this is not a problem for encapsulating the meanings of the words themselves when translations are required.

The Quran can be interpreted easily because it is clear but can never be translated.

Translation is to give a word to a word and a meaning to a meaning and this is impossible to happen with Quran because no one human in the world can produce the like of Quran.

...translate it if you can giving the full meaning using the same number of words, a word to a word.

What is translation?
Your post has several flaws, but the most predominant are when you mistakenly refer to producing the "like of Quran" with translating Arabic to English. Neither are relevant to one another. The second is when you put forth the challenge to use "a word for a word", which is completely unnecessary as it neither adds or diminishes to the meaning of the Arabic to English translation.

You will notice that the definition of translate below does not include your word for a word challenge nor does it acknowledge your claim that Arabic cannot be translated to English.


Translate: Verb.

Express the sense of (words or text) in another language. To render in another language.

a. To put into simpler terms; explain or interpret.
b. To express in different words; paraphrase.

A Troubled Man
Guru
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:24 am

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #27

Post by A Troubled Man »

happy forever wrote:
Trouble Man,

I am an Arab and I read the Quran. Know it first and then judge.
Yeah, I get that. I lived in Rabat a while with several Muslim families and managed to get a grasp on the Arab mindset... sort of. Certainly though, the Moroccan mindset is somewhat different to other Arab mindsets as one moves across Northern Africa towards the ME. Claiming to be an Arab means very little even amongst other Arabs and especially amongst other Muslim sects.

In fact, you'll find many other Arabs/Muslims who will vehemently judge you first.

Tiberius47
Apprentice
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:57 am

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #28

Post by Tiberius47 »

happy forever wrote: The Quran is the book of Allah for all humanity, it's Ayats are mercy and guidance.
If you really read it, how didn't you believe in it?
Do you read Aesop's Fables and then believe that animals can talk? No? Then why do you think that I should read the Quran and then believe that a guy named Muhammad did all that stuff, and that Allah is real?

Allahakbar
Banned
Banned
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 10:47 am

Post #29

Post by Allahakbar »

happy forever wrote:
playhavock wrote:
Thanks for the story. Since you posted it in english, and told that no english translation is possible, only transliteration (same thing basicly) then, I guess your's is the latter. Given what you've posted as a short story, I now see no reasion to bother reading the Korran, thanks for saving me a ton of time.

Heres why I will not bother reading it now: Muhammad claims to recive a message from someone named Allah, addonaly, he (Muhammad) tells someone or someone else things that Muhammad is equal to two people - ah that magical number of two, the Mormans really like that idea as well, because two people are much more convincing then one - but whatever. Anyway this "message" is keeped "In the hearts" and by that I can only assume you meen subjective memory that can change over time, so the orginal message played the telephone game and there is no orginal writing, so we have zero idea what the first message was, at all.

So, basicly its nothing built upon nothing and more nothing. All trust in someone named Muhammad who, at this point I do not even know existed. Do we know where his bones are?

Also, I'd still like to know when the EARLYEST writing of the Koran was writen down by someone because that had to be a thing at some point, if that early writing matches with modern writing then you've at least done better then the Chirstans have in perserving the oldest text you have.

This whole "cant be translated" to english bit is very odd - I guess God is not powerfull enough to get its message into every languge possible? Why, one would almost think that it is said to be only readable in your languge due to tribalisem. Actualy, thats probley the explation.

So, yeah, good job, saved me a ton of time reading your made up myth, thanks :)

What writing you're asking for?!
A book written by a human then lost then found? what is the evidence that these writings are from your Creator?

There are many books of Quran old and new and the oldest and newest all the same and no one press dare to change a word in an Ayah.

Do you think we base our religion and our believing in Allah on papers and inks?
Nay, bro. The Quran once sent is for all, the messengers taught it for all and never kept in a book which only literate can read it or able to change it if they like

Burn all book of Quran, the Quran is here preserved in our hearts, millions of Muslims have it all word by word, vowel by vowel and can't change a slight letter in it.

The messenger is dead and his companions are dead and our hearts will turn to dust but what we and all can never deny is that Quran is with no doubt the literal words of Allah, kept by all in all ages till the end of this lower life. Every Ayah (Ayah means miracle) in it is a miracle because it is the literal words of Allah, was received by Jibril to the messenger to all humanity.
Read it or don't, it is the mercy and light and guidance for all.
Why didn't god know that muhammad was illiterate?

User avatar
Pazuzu bin Hanbi
Sage
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:54 pm
Location: Kefitzat Haderech

Re: If you read the Quran, why didn't you believe in it?

Post #30

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Tiberius47 wrote:
happy forever wrote: The Quran is the book of Allah for all humanity, it's Ayats are mercy and guidance.
If you really read it, how didn't you believe in it?
Do you read Aesop's Fables and then believe that animals can talk? No? Then why do you think that I should read the Quran and then believe that a guy named Muhammad did all that stuff, and that Allah is real?
AND that ants spoke to Solomon :whistle:

Post Reply