Injustice in the Quran and the Bible

[jessehove]

Deuteronomy declares that men who rape women should marry them, and the Quran promotes men marrying multiple wives, but not women marrying multiple men. How are we to understand these apparent injustices? Here is my answer:

http://mercyandmessiah.blogspot.ca/2013 ... bible.html

[HaLi8993]

@ Jessehove

I never said Islam oppressed women? Where do you get that? I agree with Amina Wadud that men and women are created equal based on Sura 4:1. I have never heard her reject any part of the Quran. I believe she was shown me the spirit of the Quran and its' ultimate intent. 

I think God gives us law in a context and it up to us to try and faithfully interpret that context for today based on his larger principles of justice and mercy. If God gave us his law as something that is meant to remain static, despite its' 7th century context, why would we use different methodologies to interpret it? (ijma, Quyas, Ray` etc. Islam has always been interpreting God's law in a context.

If you are in agreement with the values, actions and beliefs that Amina Wadud stands for then you are in agreement that Muslim women are oppressed. Followers of these values are a group of people who have set themselves apart from the majority of Muslims, taking an approach to Islam that is highly influenced by secular Western liberalism. They believe that Islam needs to be freed from centuries of male-dominated, conservative scholarship to adequately address issues of human rights and gender equality. While this idea might appeal to some, it certainly has its flaws. This divine gift of guidance has withstood the test of time immemorial. It is sheer foolishness for any Muslim to claim the right to alter the Sharia of Allah. Allah Most High says in the Qur'an about the primary source of Sacred Law.

  "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil)." 

(Al-Baqarah, 2:2) 

Therefore any movement that lures people away from the principles of Divine guidance has gone astray.This is what happened when a mixed-gender Jumu'ah prayer was lead by Amina Wadud. This event took place with the intent to give Muslim women the opportunity to fight for gender justice as they "reclaim their right to be spiritual equals and leaders" by moving them from the space Islam has relegated them, in the back of the mosque to the front rows, something that is opposed to the teachings of Islam. 

The verse in the Quran in 4:1 says:

"And from them both He created many men and women" - meaning, Allah created from Adam and Hawwa' many men and women and distributed them throughout the world in various shapes, characteristics, colors and languages. In the end, their gathering and return will be to Allah. 

This verse does not mean that women and men are the same. Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are misinformed, rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different. Men and women are clearly different. Based on this, Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice. Islam recognizes the difference between genders hence each have their own rights a and responsibilities. 

Amina Wadud rejects parts of the Quran these are  her own words below:

"As for "no" to the Qur'an, let me summarize the work I have been doing to overcome some of the apologia of Qur'an and Woman. Yes, the Qur'an I believe and love is considered a form of Allah's self disclosure, but I do not believe God is locked into the 7th century Arabian context with its limitations based on coherency in that context, including Arabic to have a universal underpinning of TRUTH, justice and love."

Believing in such a thing means that you believe that God does not know the future. She does not believe in some of the rulings in the Quran, hence believing  in parts of the Quran and rejecting other parts. Disbelief in anything written in the Quran is rejecting it.

In Islam if we do not understand a verse we refer to the commentary called Tafsir which explains the meaning of the verse and we ask and inquire this from knowledgable scholars of the past and present we do not interpret any verse according to our own logic. The laws in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is for all times and places to suggest that they need to be changed would be like saying God got it wrong, which is not the case in Islam as it is the true religion for all of mankind. This is where Christians went wrong as they started changing their scripture, again how can God's laws be changed???

I don't think you have grasped the meaning of Ijma and qiyas. I suggest you do a little research on these topics. There is room for differences of opinion in Islam regarding jurisprudence, however this is based on authentic evidence, this is completely different to out right denial of verses and rejection, we do not reject what is already in front of us as proof, it must be in accordance with Shariah and not contradictory to the teachings of Islam, we look at the evidence we have and do not deny this altogether as Amina has done with parts of the Quran.

[jessehove]

Amina Wadud doesn't believe men and women are the same. Simply that they are equal. She accepts the diversity of their gender.

Of course God knows the future. He has also chosen to enact his goal for the future in humanity. Sharia Law is always changing. I suggest you study your own history.

[HaLi8993]

@ Jessehove

Amina Wadud doesn't believe men and women are the same. Simply that they are equal. She accepts the diversity of their gender. 

Of course God knows the future. He has also chosen to enact his goal for the future in humanity. Sharia Law is always changing. I suggest you study your own history.

What is her definition of equal??

How has Shariah Law changed Jesse??

[jessehove]

I should be more precise. The interpretation and application of Sharia Law has changed overtime therefore it pratical applications have changed and have room to change as well in our context today.

While Sharia is God' eternal and immutable will for humanity, the interpretation of that law is Fiqh or Jurisprudence which is the human effort to codify that law into cultural norms. This is always changing.

In premodern times judicial instutitions would preside over private, civil, and public matters on the basis of Islamic legal code. In the earliest times Judges would rule based on their own personal interpretation. By the 11th century Judicial instutions created a more concrete univeralized system based on the 4 central islamic schools and their major methodogolies for interpretation of the Sunnah and the Quran.

However, by the nineteenth century how Islamic Law was to be applied began to change once again because of the overarching hatred for western imperialistic regimes there was often unequal treatment of non-Muslims and major political changes were occuring on both an economic and social level. As imperialstic regimes continued to take over Muslim countries Shariah courts continued to lose more power until they really only presided over personal legal matters.

For Amina Wadud the Quran says that “everything in creation is paired.� And the Quran even goes so far as to dictate that “all things� God has created comes in pairs, and “perhaps you will all reflect on this fact.� For the Quran “a pair is made of two co-existing forms of a single reality,� the “two congruent parts formed to fit together as a whole.� Therefore because each created thing is dependent upon its zawj (mate), “the creation of both the original parents is irrevocably and primordially linked� and so the “two are equally essential.�

Although these pairs are both created equal, this does not mean they are the same. Sura 53:45 and 3:36 show their difference in that “male is not like female� and there is no “explicit characteristics to either one or the other, exclusively.� While the female naturally goes through the child bearing processing, no other aspect of the child rearing process is given explicitly to the female as her duty. Thus the biological function of the mother should not be correlated into Quranic support for the stereotyped “psychological and cultural perceptions of mothering.�

While masculine and feminine are not seen as primordial characteristics, there is a Quranic dictate for them to be seen as mutual comforts to one another, as Sura 30:21 suggests that “Among His signs is this: He has created azwaj for you from your own an/us so that you may find rest in them.�

[HaLi8993]

@ Jessehove

I should be more precise. The interpretation and application of Sharia Law has changed overtime therefore it pratical applications have changed and have room to change as well in our context today. 

While Sharia is God' eternal and immutable will for humanity, the interpretation of that law is Fiqh or Jurisprudence which is the human effort to codify that law into cultural norms. This is always changing. 

In premodern times judicial instutitions would preside over private, civil, and public matters on the basis of Islamic legal code. In the earliest times Judges would rule based on their own personal interpretation. By the 11th century Judicial instutions created a more concrete univeralized system based on the 4 central islamic schools and their major methodogolies for interpretation of the Sunnah and the Quran. 

However, by the nineteenth century how Islamic Law was to be applied began to change once again because of the overarching hatred for western imperialistic regimes there was often unequal treatment of non-Muslims and major political changes were occuring on both an economic and social level. As imperialstic regimes continued to take over Muslim countries Shariah courts continued to lose more power until they really only presided over personal legal matters. 

For Amina Wadud the Quran says that “everything in creation is paired.� And the Quran even goes so far as to dictate that “all things� God has created comes in pairs, and “perhaps you will all reflect on this fact.� For the Quran “a pair is made of two co-existing forms of a single reality,� the “two congruent parts formed to fit together as a whole.� Therefore because each created thing is dependent upon its zawj (mate), “the creation of both the original parents is irrevocably and primordially linked� and so the “two are equally essential.� 

Although these pairs are both created equal, this does not mean they are the same. Sura 53:45 and 3:36 show their difference in that “male is not like female� and there is no “explicit characteristics to either one or the other, exclusively.� While the female naturally goes through the child bearing processing, no other aspect of the child rearing process is given explicitly to the female as her duty. Thus the biological function of the mother should not be correlated into Quranic support for the stereotyped “psychological and cultural perceptions of mothering.� 

While masculine and feminine are not seen as primordial characteristics, there is a Quranic dictate for them to be seen as mutual comforts to one another, as Sura 30:21 suggests that “Among His signs is this: He has created azwaj for you from your own an/us so that you may find rest in them.�

Jesse you haven't answered my question, how has it changed? can you show me, how can God's laws be changed?? The idea that it has room to change goes against the principles of Islam especially when there is proof for or against a particular ruling. This is what those who are trying to change Islam are in striving to achieve. We are not a people that want to change Shariah Law, we are happy ruling by God's Laws in every aspect of human life. 

Fiqh is understanding the laws based on proof from the Quran and Sunnah. Give me an example how Fiqh has been used in a cultural norm and how it has been changed. I don't think you have grasped the true meaning of the word Fiqh. Here is a video to help you:



The only thing that is excepted in Islam is to rule by Islamic Law, anything else whether it be a judge, society or any individual that governs other than this, has deviated and has gone astray. It is true that Shariah Law is not being applied as it should nowadays, however this is what we are striving for. Just because there have been changes in the way a society is governed does not make this correct. Therefore you cannot say that Islam accepts nor supports such a thing. 

Which verse are you referring to about all things that God has created comes in pairs, there are a few verses in the Quran that mention "pairs" and what are the psychological and cultural perceptions of mothering we are dealing with here?

If there is an agreement that the male and female is created differently then why is Amina Wadud trying to change the rulings of Islam and what Islam has clearly allocated to each individual gender?

[jessehove]

I just told you that, I should have been more precise. Shariah Law as a divine metaphysical law has not changed, how it is applied over time has...If you want to believe there was a golden age where it was applied perfectly you can believe that. I think that point of Sura 4 is that God's ultimate ideal has never been applied perfectly. Even as Shariah itself is perfect.

[HaLi8993]

@ Jessehove

I just told you that, I should have been more precise. Shariah Law as a divine metaphysical law has not changed, how it is applied over time has...If you want to believe there was a golden age where it was applied perfectly you can believe that. I think that point of Sura 4 is that God's ultimate ideal has never been applied perfectly. Even as Shariah itself is perfect.

The reason why Islamic Law is not applied nowadays is due to global western intervention and the decadent state, poverty and the weakness of the Muslim world. However in saying this there has been a time where Shariah Law was applied perfectly namely during the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and also the four generations and caliphs that followed.

[jessehove]

I would agree that it was a time when Shariah Law was most faithfully applied. But certainly not perfect. That is probably the most significant between the Muslims I follow and yourself. I don't think God's Law will every be perfectly applied by humanity until the final Resurrection.

[HaLi8993]

@ Jessehove

I would agree that it was a time when Shariah Law was most faithfully applied. But certainly not perfect. That is probably the most significant between the Muslims I follow and yourself. I don't think God's Law will every be perfectly applied by humanity until the final Resurrection.

What makes you believe this?? What Muslims do you follow, Amina Wadud?? It would be a contradiction to think that God would send Muhammad (peace be upon him) to mankind as a guide and perfect example in teaching people God's religion and to think that it was not applied perfectly, off course it was. And when Jesus (peace be upon him) returns it will once again be applied perfectly. God says:

QURAN 5:3

"......This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion....."

[jessehove]

Khidr, Al-Ghazali, Ibn Arabi, Tariq Ramadan, Hasan of Basra, Rabia, Muhammad, his early companions and his wives.