The virgin birth of Christ is borrowed but why?

[Burninglight]

There is other place Islam could have gotten the virgin birth story but from Christianity. But why would thy borrow that and not the rest of Chrisitanity?

[Divine Insight]

There is other place Islam could have gotten the virgin birth story but from Christianity. But why would thy borrow that and not the rest of Chrisitanity?

In the early days there was no such thing as "Christianity". All that existed were rumors that Jesus was a demigod. So it's actually incorrect to say that Islam borrowed this from Christianity. A better way to look at it is to simply see it as a single roomer that evolved in different ways.

The way you pose the question suggests that you have already given the copyrights on Jesus to the Christians. But why give them the copyright on a generic myth? Christianity is just one slant on those ancient rumors.

[Jacob Simonsky]

There is other place Islam could have gotten the virgin birth story but from Christianity. But why would thy borrow that and not the rest of Chrisitanity?

The story of a virgin birth is ancient. It existed before Abraham lived. The principal god of Sumeria was said to have been born of a virgin. This was thousands of years before there were any such peoples as the Semites. There is a long tradition of gods born to virgins.

In the history of the earth whenever a new religion came along it was necessary to incorporate themes from older religious forms. Why? Because the people were more easily induced to the new if it contained a few things that made them comfortable. Thus references to ancient legends that later became Genesis and many others are fount in the OT.

Where did the idea of virgin birth originate? I don't know. I do know that it existed in both oral and written form at least 4,000 years before Jesus lived on earth. It is likely that those tales were told in Adam's day too.

Islam accepted Mary and the virgin birth because when Gabriel dictated the Quran to Mohammad that story was included. Much of Christianity is found in Islam. There is a question of why not more of Christianity appears in the Quran. The answer is that the Quran contains what was dictated to Mohammad by the Angel Gabriel, and no more. We err greatly when we selfishly claim that only the Bible is from God. The Holy Quran is also the word of God. In fact, unlike the many, many versions of the Bible the Quran exists today in the exact same form in which it was first inscribed. It has never been changed. While the Bible has suffered many times by the hand of man who thought they were qualified to edit God's word the Quran exists in a single pristine state.

[Divine Insight]

The Holy Quran is also the word of God.

I realize you have no desire to convince anyone to believe as you do, but I'm just curious why you would believe that the Qur'an is the word of God? Doesn't the Qur'an contain a lot of an anti-Christian rhetoric?

Also I notice you have in your signature:

Jew, Christian and Muslim... all equal in G-d's eye.

What about the rest of the people in the world and their religions? Do you think they too are equal in God's eye? If so, then religion itself cannot be important. If not, then why do you believe the creator of all mankind singled out the Middle Eastern cultures to commune with?

And what about the Greeks? Did God fail to commune with them too, or do you believe that Zeus was the same God as the the Biblical God?

[kayky]

I don't think there is any such thing as a "word of God." All of these books are merely human attempts to explain our experience of God. That doesn't mean these books are without value. It also doesn't mean that religion is "unimportant."

[Jacob Simonsky]

The Holy Quran is also the word of God.

I realize you have no desire to convince anyone to believe as you do, but I'm just curious why you would believe that the Qur'an is the word of God? Doesn't the Qur'an contain a lot of an anti-Christian rhetoric?

Also I notice you have in your signature:

Jew, Christian and Muslim... all equal in G-d's eye.

What about the rest of the people in the world and their religions? Do you think they too are equal in God's eye? If so, then religion itself cannot be important. If not, then why do you believe the creator of all mankind singled out the Middle Eastern cultures to commune with?

And what about the Greeks? Did God fail to commune with them too, or do you believe that Zeus was the same God as the the Biblical God?

Wow that's a lot to deal with.

I believe that the higher we go with our minds the easier, the more inclusive and less divisiveness the idea of "God" is. It is only here on earth that we insist upon the difficulties that are inherent with individual belief systems.

Sure my signature says what it says. It addresses the three religions of Abraham because most folks on this forum can relate to one or another of them. I could as easily say that all the world's religions are equal in God's eye because I believe that. There are a couple of atheists floating around this forum too. To them questions of right and wrong are usually easier to answer since they are not burdened with any set of religious requirements.

It is religions that make relationships with God difficult because religions are all man made and men think in exclusive, not inclusive, terms.

I believe the Quran is the Word of God, equal in every respect to the scriptures of ancient Judaism and to those of the Christian era. The Quran was dictated to Mohammad personally over a period of 22 years by the Angel Gabriel. This is the same Gabriel that visited Mary to tell her of the impending birth of Jesus. It is the same Gabriel who is known from earlier times too. I have known many Christians who are of the opinion that Islam is set against Christianity. From the Islamic viewpoint though this is not true. Muslims revere Jesus as a respected prophet of God.


There is a long story which will reveal my thinking.

The following is my belief. I can't prove any of it. It will be accepted by a few but rejected by most. No matter.

It is, of course, the great source that we call God which created the earth and peopled it with humanity. I will use the term "God" in this but do not think that I insist upon a belief in one God only. I do not.

There was a blinding moment of creation and time began. Evolution began.

It took the earth quite a long while to develop proto-human types. Finally the brains of these creatures were sufficiently capable and God began to send human souls to inhabit them. This was the time of Adam and Eve. They were the arch-types. "God" was pleased. A knowledge of and a belief in a God (or gods) is now widespread via the line of Adam. Much time passes and humanity spreads itself around the globe. As people move farther apart the quasi-religious traditions are changed too. Belief in a single God becomes beliefs in many. Why not have a god for each area of living? The idea makes perfect sense to many. So up until the time of the flood people are living all over the planet and entertaining lots of differing beliefs. What they have in common though is an innate belief in a divine entity(s). In this they are all "true". To be sure both benevolent and hurtful gods appeared. The fearful minds of men were responsible for these.

This is the setting then when a great event occurred.

Right around 13 thousand years ago, as the last ice age ended, a great sheet of continental ice on the Southernmost land mass suddenly moved to the sea creating an immense wave which rocketed around the world. Where it went northward between Africa and the sub-Indian land masses it was particularly strong. Narrowing in the funnels of the Red Sea and Persian Gulfs it was raised to great heights. It came ashore. It was high enough to almost cover Mt. Ararat. The land Northward as far as present day Armenia was inundated. Around the world coastal regions were likewise set upon by the sea. Tens of thousands died. This was the great flood of Noah. Yes, Noah was informed in advance by a messenger from "God". This event was remembered by peoples throughout the world as we know from universal stories of "the flood".

God had a purpose in creating man in the first place. To this end He appointed a great spiritual entity and assigned Him the task of teaching the world. In the days of Adam this was easy and direct. As humanity spread throughout the globe though the results were more diluted. At some time after the flood this great effort is revitalized. God again is more direct in His dealings with humanity. Christ begins anew.

Now in those post flood days we see in the world a wide variety of beliefs. Most have morphed into what we would today call "pagan" but the source of them all is traceable to the family of Adam so very long before.

Advance from Noah to ancient Sumer. By now religious beliefs are pretty much universally built on the assumption that there are many gods in existence. In the Sumerian period the multiplicity of gods reached it's apex in complexity.

Sumer gives way to Babylonia when it becomes desired that one single God will sit higher than all the rest. Witness Marduk the creator of the heavens and earth. Now we have one great god with many lesser gods. This supreme entity is said to be born to a virgin mother. Through this magical arrival the people are convinced that something really authentic and mysterious has happened and so it is probably in their best interests to begin believing in Him (just in case??). In order to force the populace to discard their previous beliefs and begin revering one God as being supreme it is ordered that one single language be made the official tongue of the land. This event is remember in the story of the tower of Babel.

In the later Babylonian times a people from north of that region (where present day Eastern Turkey is) began to assert themselves against the Babylonian dictums. These good folk were from ancient Akkad. The spoke Akkadian. They warred against Babylonia with some success. A favored son was named Abraham. The world teacher, the Christ, was able to get through to this man and led him to begin the reinstitution of the beliefs of Adam. "There was really only one true God." It was in these times that the Semitics first appeared. Abraham had three notable sons. Each was a new messenger to the world. Abraham had several wives and consorted with his household maid servant as well. Such things were acceptable in those days as tribal power was directly related to numbers. There was an ancient tradition too of leaders marrying their half sisters. This was to insure the blood lines remained pure. These ideas remained as we see in recent history of European Kings.

Now Hebrew replaces Akkadian as the preferred language. The son of Abraham by his second wife, his half sister wife Sarah was the man who eventually began the line that would lead the world to Judaism. But the Semitic peoples were sundered now. Another son left to join with the family of tribes that became the Arabic peoples. These adopted their own version of the old Akkadian. This language remains today as Arabic in it's several forms. It was at a later time that the story of Moses appears. A reaffirmation of the Abrahamic desire to impart to the people the idea of a single God is made through His teachings. It is now that all the ancient teachings are put together into a single whole. The OT is seen on earth.

Now move forward to a time when something very important happens for the first time in the world. Christ decides to take on a human form. A thing which He had never done before. He assigns Gabriel to visit the prospective mother, Mary, to inform her of that decision. Witness the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. As in the older days the tradition of a virgin birth is used to great advantage. Jesus of Nazareth is born.

Jesus' mission is to the entire world. He is born in the center of the world. Judea was near all the important trade routes of the day. Most of the people of the world were close to hand. For most of His life Jesus lives quietly but the time of His mission nears. He knows of the spirit of Christ who is with Him but is yet fearful. To resolve this He removes Himself to the desert for an extended meditation. It is during this communion with the Father that He finally is able to decide to accept what is asked of Him. The metaphor of rejecting Satan tells of this moment. The spirit of Christ is now fully merged with the man Jesus.

What better place for a teacher to appear in those days than Judea? Now a man in physical form is speaking as though He were directly of God. This makes a great impression on everyone. He reaffirms the oneness of humanity. He emphasizes giving over receiving. He teaches humility. But He doesn't please everyone. The powerful Jewish leaders of the day saw the world in terms of temporal power. Why should they not? After all survival was dependent upon physical strength. They had long expected a Messiah but believed that this great leader would be warlike; that they would be led to victories in the real world. God's teachings to us are that we be warlike but the only true wars of value are those that each of us fights by ourselves. Humility is the weapon that will defeat these internal enemies. The victory promised is the eventual return to the Father. So Jesus teaches us to be nice to each other. His most important and pivotal teachings are those contained on His sermon on the mount. He practices what He preaches. He is burdened with the necessity to prove to the people that what He claims about being of the Father is true. The only way He can do this is by dying and resurrecting to appear to the doubters, witness of God's truth to humanity. This He gladly, though hesitatingly, does. Now the spirit of Christ leaves physical form but the work is not yet completed.

Judaism is split. One branch becomes the new religion, Christianity. Later a new apostle from the North of Judea joins the effort. This is Paul who we all know so well. The apostles had by now traveled to all points of the compass carrying the "good news" to the world. Well, almost to the whole world.

Much of the world has yet to hear of the appearance of the world teacher, the Christ. What to do? One problem closer to home is dealt with at last. The very warlike, nomadic, Arabic peoples of the far desert lands are yet immersed in the old models of multiple gods. They are happy and comfortable in this. They know of Christianity and Judaism but reject them because they are carried to them by outsiders who they never had been inclined to trust. They thus rejected the teachings of Christ. The world teacher is now back in spirit, His mission through Jesus having run it's course.

Christ decides that the Arabic brothers will only accept a messenger if He is one who is born to them. He selects Mohammad and begins an effort, through Gabriel, at teaching. His is a difficult task because it plainly says that the Arabs must reject the many gods of their fathers and accept the supremacy of one only. It is met with violence. Mohammad has to fight for his life. Islam is born through war. But it is born and takes a foothold on earth. Christ finally is able to bring these good folk into harmony with God. The work of bringing all of humanity back to the beliefs prevalent in Adam's time is advanced. The entire rest of the world must wait a while longer. Humanity has yet to develop efficient means of transportation to far distant, over oceans, lands. Enter the age of the great explorations.

Spain and other Christian nations assume the mission of carrying God's word to the "heathens" of the new world. They do so with the sword. Their work, though born in violence, is effective. The far reaches of the world are beginning to come back to the teachings which were lost to them in the generations following Adam.
Christianity becomes a very dominant religion in the world. In more modern times and yet today missionaries are busy in virtually all parts of the world. They are engaged in the work which was begun by Christ through Jesus. Now let's come right to this moment. We are on this forum talking about religions and which God is the real one and so on.

My position is that the God of Adam was the driving force in the formation of all the religions of the world; they are all thus based on God's truth. My belief is that the world has long had a teacher. The Greeks named Him with the title Kristos (the anointed one). My position is that the man Jesus consciously cooperated in the work and was henceforth called (by us) Christ. So where are we today regarding the global view of religions?

I maintain that all religions are, no matter how distant the connection, of the God of Adam. I believe in the inclusiveness of Christ's teachings and reject the exclusiveness of the idea of any one religion being better than another. It is, after all, the teachings that are important and not the man made organizations which were built around them.

In todays world we find that Christianity has been expanded to meet the expectations of nearly everyone on the planet. Multitudes of cultures require like numbers of religious forms to serve each. We witness hundreds of flavors of Christianity. How to deal with it?

Remember the teachings of Christ through Jesus. Remember that His wish was that each of us follow the example given by Jesus. That we identify and make war on all the nasty little things that our individual personalities are capable of. Mankind has yet to grow to the point where it can realize that it is the teachings that are essential and not the religious requirements that have been added on by man. Efforts are commonly made to convert others to our own religions. There are yet three great religions of Abraham in the world. There are the others too. The God of Adam will eventually be known to us all though. The work is underway. One day we will eliminate the divisiveness from our minds.

The Kingdom of God is promised. It will arrive. Christ will return openly to humanity. It will happen when we make ourselves ready to receive it. While we yet refuse to allow that all religions are one the Kingdom is delayed. The burden is upon us.

In the new "kingdom" which is really a metaphor for a time when humanity once again is together in God's spirit. We will have finally set aside our inclination to fight with each other over which religion is the right one or over how many Gods there really are and all that.

The Kingdom will not arrive with the purpose of setting us straight. Rather it will arrive after we set ourselves right. It is delayed by the global inclination for greed, jealousy, war and competitiveness. May I cite the Jews of old who expected a warlike Messiah? Our expectation of the advent of the return of Christ is much the same. Humanity will first half to change their attitudes towards their fellows. Then, when the dust clears, Christ will reappear and all will be well. Christ will not reappear until we invite Him in by changing our hearts.

In the coming Kingdom of God all religions will be resolved into a single all encompassing whole body of worship. It will not be Christianity or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism or Taoism or any of the rest. It will be a synthesis of God's original teachings to Adam so very long ago. So how do we cause this to happen?

The best thing for humanity to do beginning right now is to actually practice what they preach. Begin living the teachings. Stop building walls of separation by insisting that only religion is correct. Begin thinking as though the new Kingdom was already here. Build a positive image of tomorrow. Allow that all religions are correct in that they all have, no matter how distant, their origins in the time of Adam. Desist telling people that their beliefs are wrong. Do we say that God loves us unconditionally? Begin to prove this by never again insisting upon the condition that others must move to our particular beliefs. Realize that this, in itself, is not only a condition but a very large one. God really does love us with no expectations. It is only our poor little humans minds that complicate this.

These are my personal beliefs. It is because I believe these things that I refuse to assert that any religion is correct while others are wrong. I do not consider it important to argue about either gods or prophets or anything else. I see in all the worlds scriptures a single truth. When I consider all the religions of the world I also see Christ. When I think of Jesus I choose to be reminded of the state of the world that required His sacrifice.

I claim Judaism, Christianity and Islam as my religions. I see Christ in them all. I do not necessarily relate to the other religions in the world simply because I am or European lineage and have had little experience with them.

Returning to your question..... Zeus and the tens of thousands of other gods the world has known reflect the human minds of various times as they seek to remember the world as it was in the time of Adam. It was so very long ago. The last thing I would ever do is to tell someone that his beliefs are wrong. The reason is because to do so would be to drive the wedge of separation even deeper in the bleeding wound which so represents the state of the world today. Better to remain silent than to do that.

[Jacob Simonsky]

I don't think there is any such thing as a "word of God." All of these books are merely human attempts to explain our experience of God. That doesn't mean these books are without value. It also doesn't mean that religion is "unimportant."

That's it exactly. When a man attempts to write about how he understands god the inclination is present for him to claim that what he presents is "the word of God".

I use the term "word of God" too because it fits into what so many people expect.

[Ooberman]

I don't think there is any such thing as a "word of God." All of these books are merely human attempts to explain our experience of God. That doesn't mean these books are without value. It also doesn't mean that religion is "unimportant."

That's it exactly. When a man attempts to write about how he understands god the inclination is present for him to claim that what he presents is "the word of God".

I use the term "word of God" too because it fits into what so many people expect.

What if there is no God? What is your "Plan B"? (What is your best explanation of the facts?)

[Jacob Simonsky]

I don't think there is any such thing as a "word of God." All of these books are merely human attempts to explain our experience of God. That doesn't mean these books are without value. It also doesn't mean that religion is "unimportant."

That's it exactly. When a man attempts to write about how he understands god the inclination is present for him to claim that what he presents is "the word of God".

I use the term "word of God" too because it fits into what so many people expect.

What if there is no God? What is your "Plan B"? (What is your best explanation of the facts?)

My personal plan A is that there is a viable spiritual universe beyond the physical, that we came from there and will return there after we die. Plan A does not specifically require that there is a God. If there is then OK with me.

My plan B is less definable... If I am entirely wrong about everything then???? What? Nothingness? What would be the point of that? Maybe my plan B is the plan A of the atheist???

I'll be having a beer before bed time from now on just in case plan B is true.

[Ooberman]

There is other place Islam could have gotten the virgin birth story but from Christianity. But why would thy borrow that and not the rest of Chrisitanity?

BurningLight, you are aware that Jesus wasn't the first or last "Virgin Birth Myth".


In fact, in Pre-Columbia Mexico, the Mayans had a "Vanguard of the Supreme Duality". God's Son, born of a virgin, etc...