Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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Burninglight
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Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Post #1

Post by Burninglight »

Did Allah and Muhammad understand the concept of the Christianity trinity and did Islam borrow the concept of heaven and hell from Christianity?

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Post #2

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Christianity and Islam are both just spin-offs from the original Judaism which itself was obviously a collection of superstitions that even predate Judaism.

Judaism itself was never truly well-defined, nor was there every any true consensus concerning what it should be about. The rumors about Jesus clearly show that there was much controversy already. And Jesus himself clearly rebuked much of Orthodox Judaism. He called the Jewish Priests "Hypocrites" and rejected much of the teachings from the Old Testament. He was ultimately crucified for his apostasy and blaspheme against the God of Judaism.

Islam is just a later spin-off that came after Christianity and this is why the dogma of Islam contains references to Christianity.

There is no basis for any of these religions.

In fact, the idea of a single main God actually stems from Greek mythology and the concept of Zeus as being the "God of Gods". The Hebrews just took that idea and made the God jealous and pretended like no other Gods even exist at all (which turned out to be an extreme contradiction in the end). A God who is jealous of other gods that don't even exist is an oxymoron.

The Hebrews shot themselves in the foot so many times that their mythology has no feet left to stand on. And Both Christianity and Islam have nothing at all to stand on because both of them are standing on the shoulders of Judaism.

Without Judaism, Christianity and Islam would be totally meaningless. They are both totally dependent upon the mythology of their parent religion.
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Post #3

Post by Burninglight »

Divine Insight wrote: Christianity and Islam are both just spin-offs from the original Judaism which itself was obviously a collection of superstitions that even predate Judaism.

Judaism itself was never truly well-defined, nor was there every any true consensus concerning what it should be about. The rumors about Jesus clearly show that there was much controversy already. And Jesus himself clearly rebuked much of Orthodox Judaism. He called the Jewish Priests "Hypocrites" and rejected much of the teachings from the Old Testament. He was ultimately crucified for his apostasy and blaspheme against the God of Judaism.

Islam is just a later spin-off that came after Christianity and this is why the dogma of Islam contains references to Christianity.

There is no basis for any of these religions.

In fact, the idea of a single main God actually stems from Greek mythology and the concept of Zeus as being the "God of Gods". The Hebrews just took that idea and made the God jealous and pretended like no other Gods even exist at all (which turned out to be an extreme contradiction in the end). A God who is jealous of other gods that don't even exist is an oxymoron.

The Hebrews shot themselves in the foot so many times that their mythology has no feet left to stand on. And Both Christianity and Islam have nothing at all to stand on because both of them are standing on the shoulders of Judaism.

Without Judaism, Christianity and Islam would be totally meaningless. They are both totally dependent upon the mythology of their parent religion.
This has some truth to it, but I am afraid you have thrown the baby out with the bath water

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Post #4

Post by keithprosser3 »

Did Allah and Muhammad understand the concept of the Christianity trinity
No-one understands the concept of the Trinity.

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Post #5

Post by Burninglight »

keithprosser3 wrote:
Did Allah and Muhammad understand the concept of the Christianity trinity
No-one understands the concept of the Trinity.
What you say is very true. Concept was a poor choice of word. I meant to ask instead did Allah or Muhammad know the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit? I see no evidence that they did.
We don't understand the concept fully, but we have the persons correct and Allah shows no understanding of who those persons were; in fact he implies it was Jesus, Mary and Allah and nothing could be further from the truth..

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Post #6

Post by keithprosser3 »

I think it would be better to keep to the narrow point of the thread, DI, because everything you just said has been said very many times already - and no doubt will be said again (and again, and again). I don't care if it's true and I do agree with you - but does it really need saying again?

I don't think Mohammed thought the Christian concept of trinity referred to God, Jesus and Mary.

Islam is very strict in its monotheism. For that reason Islam rejects anything that suggests the divinity or any god-like qualities can be attributed to anyone but Allah, hence we find warnings about worshipping Jesus and Mary, but I don't see them as connected to the concept of a trinity per se.

Islam doesn't seem to pay any significant attention to the trinity specifically, except perhaps for this ayat:

"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity" (5:73)

Whether the trinity referred to is god, Jesus and holy spirit or god, jesus and mary is not stated, but I think it indicates that Muslims knew and understood the concept of trinity as well as it could be understood. One could ask which version of the Trinity was it that they misunderstood!

As to whether heaven and hell were borrowed, that is very hard to tell for certain.

But I would say they the Islamic idea of hell was probably borrowed or adapted from Judaism and heaven from Christian sources, but the hell of Judaism and the Heaven of Christianity are themselves borrowings to some degree - Christian heaven is heavily influenced by Hellenism, but I think that the Islamic heaven came from primarily Christian sources given the historical and geographical factors involved, not independently from a common source.

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Post #7

Post by Burninglight »

keithprosser3 wrote: I think it would be better to keep to the narrow point of the thread, DI, because everything you just said has been said very many times already - and no doubt will be said again (and again, and again). I don't care if it's true and I do agree with you - but does it really need saying again?

I don't think Mohammed thought the Christian concept of trinity referred to God, Jesus and Mary.

Islam is very strict in its monotheism. For that reason Islam rejects anything that suggests the divinity or any god-like qualities can be attributed to anyone but Allah, hence we find warnings about worshipping Jesus and Mary, but I don't see them as connected to the concept of a trinity per se.

Islam doesn't seem to pay any significant attention to the trinity specifically, except perhaps for this ayat:

"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity" (5:73)

Whether the trinity referred to is god, Jesus and holy spirit or god, jesus and mary is not stated, but I think it indicates that Muslims knew and understood the concept of trinity as well as it could be understood. One could ask which version of the Trinity was it that they misunderstood!

As to whether heaven and hell were borrowed, that is very hard to tell for certain.

But I would say they the Islamic idea of hell was probably borrowed or adapted from Judaism and heaven from Christian sources, but the hell of Judaism and the Heaven of Christianity are themselves borrowings to some degree - Christian heaven is heavily influenced by Hellenism, but I think that the Islamic heaven came from primarily Christian sources given the historical and geographical factors involved, not independently from a common source.
Why don't you think Muhammad thought the trinity consisted of Jesus, Mary and Allah?

Allah said, "say not three" He would have said say not four if he knew Christians believe the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity instead of believing the Holy Spirit was Gabriel.

I bring it up because I don't get an answer from Muslims themselves to satisfy why an all knowing Islamic god implies that the Christian trinity consisted of the three I mentioned. He said "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me? Anyone can count that makes three. The Holy Spirit would be four, but Allah said "say not three." A child can make this inference, IMO.

Judaism doesn't have a concept of heaven and hell so Islam got it from Christianity, and they got the virgin birth from Christianity as well. Unfortunately, they reject the Christian explanation as to why Jesus was born of a virgin. You can ask what version of trinity and the answer will always be the same. Allah's and Muhammad's version of the trinity were obviously Jesus, Mary and Allah. That would be considered a discrepancy IMO and a big one! I am surprise you can't see it or make that obvious inference.

keithprosser3

Post #8

Post by keithprosser3 »

It seems probably that Muslim theologians haven't paid much attention to the Christian notion of trinity, just as Christian theolgians pay little attention to, say, the finer points of karma in Hindu theology.

Certainly Islam stresses its monotheism. The idea of trinity would be unacceptable to Islamic theology regardless of how it was constituted! As Christians have never really got to terms with trinity and it is still a bone of contention between various Chrstian sects, Muslims are probably waiting for Christians to get their act together before comiting themselves!

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Post #9

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Burninglight

Often Christians such as Burniglight, use the Quranic verse  5:116, to make the claim that the Quran doesn't understand the Trinity, that the Quran's understanding of the Trinity is wrong, you will not find anywhere in Islam that makes the claim that Islam believed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a member of the Trinity. This verse is in fact about the worship of Jesus (peace be upon him) and Mary not about the Trinity. It clearly says:

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden"
 
So from this verse you assert that the Quran did not know what the Trinity was, as Mary is not in the Trinity, hence the Quran was wrong. For starters the Christians themselves have committed the mistake, not the Quran, if anyone reads Surah 5:116 (the above quoted verse) they will see that the verse says NOTHING about the concept ofTrinity. So I need ask you Burniglight from where do you assert that this verse is mentioning the Trinity? You have simply read what is not there.

In fact in the very same Surah, in passage 73, the Quran does mention the Trinity:

QURAN 5:73

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them"

So your wrong again, the Quran does mention the Trinity and the fact that in this verse it says nothing about Mary being included in the Trinity is a proof that Islam does not consider Mary as part of the trinity. 

The Quran also says this about the concept of trinity:

QURAN 4:171

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs" 

Therefore again the Quran attacks the Trinity, yet again there is nothing about Mary. So already we can see a problem with the Christian argument, the Quran when it attacks the Trinity it mentions the Trinity quite clearly, and when it does so it says nothing about Mary being involved within the Trinity. Now when the Quran mentions Jesus and Mary being worshiped as gods it never mentions the Trinity at all!

So the burden of proof is now on you to show me where the Quran says anything about Mary being in the Trinity, I have quoted two passages from the Quran which attack the Trinity, and neither of these two passages say that Mary is in the Trinity.

So the Quran attacks both the Trinity, as well as Christians who have wrongly raised Mary to such a high degree that she has become like a god. 

As for heaven and hell, please explain to me why you believe that Islam borrowed this?? 

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Post #10

Post by Allahakbar »

[Replying to post 9 by HaLi8993]

Isn't the word used THREE and not trinity?
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