Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

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Misconceptions and Borrowed Concepts

Post #1

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Did Allah and Muhammad understand the concept of the Christianity trinity and did Islam borrow the concept of heaven and hell from Christianity?

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Post #11

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Replying to post 10 by Allahakbar]

I believe both are used.
My work got wiped out so I'll show prove later that Allah and Muhammad had no clue about the concept of the Christian trinity. And I'll show proof that all Muslim can do is make poor excuses by saying he didn't mention trinity

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Post #12

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HaLi8993 wrote: @ Burninglight

Often Christians such as Burniglight, use the Quranic verse  5:116, to make the claim that the Quran doesn't understand the Trinity, that the Quran's understanding of the Trinity is wrong, you will not find anywhere in Islam that makes the claim that Islam believed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a member of the Trinity. This verse is in fact about the worship of Jesus (peace be upon him) and Mary not about the Trinity. It clearly says:

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden"
 
So from this verse you assert that the Quran did not know what the Trinity was, as Mary is not in the Trinity, hence the Quran was wrong. For starters the Christians themselves have committed the mistake, not the Quran, if anyone reads Surah 5:116 (the above quoted verse) they will see that the verse says NOTHING about the concept ofTrinity. So I need ask you Burniglight from where do you assert that this verse is mentioning the Trinity? You have simply read what is not there.

In fact in the very same Surah, in passage 73, the Quran does mention the Trinity:

QURAN 5:73

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them"

So your wrong again, the Quran does mention the Trinity and the fact that in this verse it says nothing about Mary being included in the Trinity is a proof that Islam does not consider Mary as part of the trinity. 

The Quran also says this about the concept of trinity:

QURAN 4:171

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs" 

Therefore again the Quran attacks the Trinity, yet again there is nothing about Mary. So already we can see a problem with the Christian argument, the Quran when it attacks the Trinity it mentions the Trinity quite clearly, and when it does so it says nothing about Mary being involved within the Trinity. Now when the Quran mentions Jesus and Mary being worshiped as gods it never mentions the Trinity at all!

So the burden of proof is now on you to show me where the Quran says anything about Mary being in the Trinity, I have quoted two passages from the Quran which attack the Trinity, and neither of these two passages say that Mary is in the Trinity.

So the Quran attacks both the Trinity, as well as Christians who have wrongly raised Mary to such a high degree that she has become like a god. 

As for heaven and hell, please explain to me why you believe that Islam borrowed this?? 
Hi Hali
First of all, in today’s age, you don't have to be a Christian to infer intelligently that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of the Christian trinity and imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts. You can tell what someone knows by the questions they ask.

You have not proved me wrong yet. I never said the Quran doesn't attack a trinity, but it doesn't attack the Christian trinity as Christians understood and understand Him to be, because no Christians ever considered Jesus, Mary and Allah the trinity ever. Allah unequivocally alludes or implies to the trinity as Jesus, Mary and himself!

You can tell what a person believes and knows by the things he says, doesn’t say and the questions he asks. Allah will ask Jesus, “Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?� This question proves ignorance, uncertainty, and distrust. You mean Allah doesn’t know what Jesus said? This proves that Allah was reacting to an imperfect understanding of Christianity and the Christian trinity.

Allah did not know that the Holy Spirit in Christianity was and is the third person of God’s tri unity and not himself, lol, a child with a 4th grade reading level can make this inference. No one said Allah said explicitly that Jesus, Mary and himself are the Christian trinity, but he didn’t have to. We know by his question to Jesus. There is no burden of proof on Christians to prove this. Someone only needs common sense to see the obvious. Lol, ask an atheists interested in religion and he’ll tell you the same thing.

Allah (or was it really Muhammad) said “say not three;� he didn’t say “Say not four.� If he believed Christians believe Mary was a god, than he would’ve have said “say not four.� LOL, it is so obviously that you are making useless excuses to cover up this discrepancy. And it makes it clear to me that deception and ignorance is the order of the day.

Finally, many Muslims such as yourself don’t know that Islam borrowed the virgin birth and the heaven and hell concept from Christianity. Christianity was the first to say Jesus was born of a virgin and the first to speak of heaven and hell. Jesus is the one who preached on heaven and hell in the Bible as much as He did of eternal life. The burden of proof is all on you to show where Islam got what had already been said by Christianity; in fact, Islam got the concept of monotheism from the Jews and Christians as well.

The burden of proof is also on you to prove Allah understood the Christianity trinity, and the burden is on you to prove Islam wasn’t a reaction to Catholicism along with Muhammad using religion to unite a mighty army to take over the world for the Islamic god who has nothing to do with the Scriptures that came before. Because the Scriptures that came before reject Ishmael as a prophet from whom Muhammad is said to be a descendant by many Muslims.

Hali, PBUY, don’t take it personally. I am calling it the way I see it, and trying to be as honest about Islam and Christianity as I know how. I am not looking to spread , speak or make a lie. Let the truth be told. If the truth kills a religion let it.

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Post #13

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Burninglight
Hi Hali 
First of all, in today’s age, you don't have to be a Christian to infer intelligently that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of the Christian trinity and imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts. You can tell what someone knows by the questions they ask. 

You have not proved me wrong yet. I never said the Quran doesn't attack a trinity, but it doesn't attack the Christian trinity as Christians understood and understand Him to be, because no Christians ever considered Jesus, Mary and Allah the trinity ever. Allah unequivocally alludes or implies to the trinity as Jesus, Mary and himself! 

You can tell what a person believes and knows by the things he says, doesn’t say and the questions he asks. Allah will ask Jesus, “Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?� This question proves ignorance, uncertainty, and distrust. You mean Allah doesn’t know what Jesus said? This proves that Allah was reacting to an imperfect understanding of Christianity and the Christian trinity. 

Allah did not know that the Holy Spirit in Christianity was and is the third person of God’s tri unity and not himself, lol, a child with a 4th grade reading level can make this inference. No one said Allah said explicitly that Jesus, Mary and himself are the Christian trinity, but he didn’t have to. We know by his question to Jesus. There is no burden of proof on Christians to prove this. Someone only needs common sense to see the obvious. Lol, ask an atheists interested in religion and he’ll tell you the same thing. 

Allah (or was it really Muhammad) said “say not three;� he didn’t say “Say not four.� If he believed Christians believe Mary was a god, than he would’ve have said “say not four.� LOL, it is so obviously that you are making useless excuses to cover up this discrepancy. And it makes it clear to me that deception and ignorance is the order of the day. 

Finally, many Muslims such as yourself don’t know that Islam borrowed the virgin birth and the heaven and hell concept from Christianity. Christianity was the first to say Jesus was born of a virgin and the first to speak of heaven and hell. Jesus is the one who preached on heaven and hell in the Bible as much as He did of eternal life. The burden of proof is all on you to show where Islam got what had already been said by Christianity; in fact, Islam got the concept of monotheism from the Jews and Christians as well. 

The burden of proof is also on you to prove Allah understood the Christianity trinity, and the burden is on you to prove Islam wasn’t a reaction to Catholicism along with Muhammad using religion to unite a mighty army to take over the world for the Islamic god who has nothing to do with the Scriptures that came before. Because the Scriptures that came before reject Ishmael as a prophet from whom Muhammad is said to be a descendant by many Muslims. 

Hali, PBUY, don’t take it personally. I am calling it the way I see it, and trying to be as honest about Islam and Christianity as I know how. I am not looking to spread , speak or make a lie. Let the truth be told. If the truth kills a religion let it.
Hi Burninglight,

As I have said, the misconception is that you believe that the Quran is saying something it is not. Where in the Quran does Allah make any mention that the trinity includes Mary??, you will not find anywhere in the Quran that makes such a claim, this is something you have created and a fiction of imagination. 

There is no uncertainty, distrust or ignorance in verse 5:116, the only ignorance is those that fail to understand the context of the verse and it's meaning. It is clear from this verse that Allah will ask Jesus (peace be upon him) on the day of Resurrection to confirm the true message in which Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent with, he will on that day be a witness against those that worshipped him and his mother as god, as Christians do today. The verse is very clear and here it is again for you:

QURAN 5:116

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

Allah is All-Knowing of what the trinity consists of, hence the reason we are warned against such a belief, the problem with what you say is that the verse your quoting has nothing to do with the trinity, so you need to prove that this is so. 

One with common sense would realize that the trinity was never part of the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). Christians themselves have varying understands of what the trinity is about, this is only supported by the fact that this belief was an old worshipping practice that had started a long time before the advent of Jesus (peace be upon him), making it's way into Christianity from ancient Pagonistic beliefs. 

It seems Christians themselves cant explain the concept of trinity, this is no surprise when it is well known that some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." so which is it then Burninglight?? So many contradictions that Christians themselves can't even agree!

More to the point Allah does not mention four because the trinity concept is made of three, but at the same time he addresses those that worship Mary as God, He is not dealing with the trinity in that verse, as you seem to allude. Therefore for you to be correct in what you say you need to be able to prove that the Quran is dealing with the trinity when Allah says:

"......did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah...."

Furthermore if Islam borrowed the concept of the virgin birth and heaven and hell from Christianity then why are these beliefs different and not the same??? Allah revealed the Torah, Gospel and Quran Burninglight, as much as you would like to deny this, the truth can be found in your own books. All the Prophets and Messengers came with the belief of Islamic Monotheism because they all came with the same message to worship One God (not three). Seeing as you believe that Christians believe in Monotheism then you need to prove it, what we see is in complete parallel to this with Christian beliefs and practices.

I have already proven how the Quran addresses the trinity, it is not up to us as Muslims to prove absurdities, it is up to you to prove that it is not dealing with the trinity instead of giving your own interpretation to verses of the Quran in which you have no knowledge of. The advent of Muhammad (peace be upon him) can be found in your own scriptures Burninglight something that is again ignored. It is the current scriptures that have been changed that reject Ismael as a Prophet not what was revealed to the Prophets and Messengers of revelation from God, only to cover up the truth. The Quran is the final religion chosen for all of mankind. 

So my sincere advice to you is go back and read into History about the trinity and how it all started.

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Post #14

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ 
Isn't the word used THREE and not trinity?
Isn't the trinity three??? 

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Post #15

Post by Burninglight »

HaLi8993 wrote: @ Burninglight
Hi Hali 
First of all, in today’s age, you don't have to be a Christian to infer intelligently that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of the Christian trinity and imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts. You can tell what someone knows by the questions they ask. 

You have not proved me wrong yet. I never said the Quran doesn't attack a trinity, but it doesn't attack the Christian trinity as Christians understood and understand Him to be, because no Christians ever considered Jesus, Mary and Allah the trinity ever. Allah unequivocally alludes or implies to the trinity as Jesus, Mary and himself! 

You can tell what a person believes and knows by the things he says, doesn’t say and the questions he asks. Allah will ask Jesus, “Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?� This question proves ignorance, uncertainty, and distrust. You mean Allah doesn’t know what Jesus said? This proves that Allah was reacting to an imperfect understanding of Christianity and the Christian trinity. 

Allah did not know that the Holy Spirit in Christianity was and is the third person of God’s tri unity and not himself, lol, a child with a 4th grade reading level can make this inference. No one said Allah said explicitly that Jesus, Mary and himself are the Christian trinity, but he didn’t have to. We know by his question to Jesus. There is no burden of proof on Christians to prove this. Someone only needs common sense to see the obvious. Lol, ask an atheists interested in religion and he’ll tell you the same thing. 

Allah (or was it really Muhammad) said “say not three;� he didn’t say “Say not four.� If he believed Christians believe Mary was a god, than he would’ve have said “say not four.� LOL, it is so obviously that you are making useless excuses to cover up this discrepancy. And it makes it clear to me that deception and ignorance is the order of the day. 

Finally, many Muslims such as yourself don’t know that Islam borrowed the virgin birth and the heaven and hell concept from Christianity. Christianity was the first to say Jesus was born of a virgin and the first to speak of heaven and hell. Jesus is the one who preached on heaven and hell in the Bible as much as He did of eternal life. The burden of proof is all on you to show where Islam got what had already been said by Christianity; in fact, Islam got the concept of monotheism from the Jews and Christians as well. 

The burden of proof is also on you to prove Allah understood the Christianity trinity, and the burden is on you to prove Islam wasn’t a reaction to Catholicism along with Muhammad using religion to unite a mighty army to take over the world for the Islamic god who has nothing to do with the Scriptures that came before. Because the Scriptures that came before reject Ishmael as a prophet from whom Muhammad is said to be a descendant by many Muslims. 

Hali, PBUY, don’t take it personally. I am calling it the way I see it, and trying to be as honest about Islam and Christianity as I know how. I am not looking to spread , speak or make a lie. Let the truth be told. If the truth kills a religion let it.
Hi Burninglight,

As I have said, the misconception is that you believe that the Quran is saying something it is not. Where in the Quran does Allah make any mention that the trinity includes Mary??, you will not find anywhere in the Quran that makes such a claim, this is something you have created and a fiction of imagination. 

There is no uncertainty, distrust or ignorance in verse 5:116, the only ignorance is those that fail to understand the context of the verse and it's meaning. It is clear from this verse that Allah will ask Jesus (peace be upon him) on the day of Resurrection to confirm the true message in which Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent with, he will on that day be a witness against those that worshipped him and his mother as god, as Christians do today. The verse is very clear and here it is again for you:

QURAN 5:116

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."

Allah is All-Knowing of what the trinity consists of, hence the reason we are warned against such a belief, the problem with what you say is that the verse your quoting has nothing to do with the trinity, so you need to prove that this is so. 

I have already proven how the Quran addresses the trinity, it is not up to us as Muslims to prove absurdities, it is up to you to prove that it is not dealing with the trinity instead of giving your own interpretation to verses of the Quran in which you have no knowledge of. The advent of Muhammad (peace be upon him) can be found in your own scriptures Burninglight something that is again ignored. It is the current scriptures that have been changed that reject Ismael as a Prophet not what was revealed to the Prophets and Messengers of revelation from God, only to cover up the truth. The Quran is the final religion chosen for all of mankind. 

So my sincere advice to you is go back and read into History about the trinity and how it all started.
First of all, Christians do not worship Mary as god never have and never will. Secondly, I didn't say Allah said explicitly that Mary was part of the trinity, I said one can infer that is what Allah meant. He implies it and it is the only inference that could be made.

Allah was not all knowing about who the trinity was. He though it was son, mother and father. Only Muslims refuse to see this inference, but anyone who can see objectively knows that is what was meant.

Now Catholics have prayed to Mary and other saints, but they didn't worship her as god, but I can understand why Allah had misconceptions. As far as the term trinity, it was never mentioned in the Bible. The word was coined at the council of Nicaea with Constantine, but the Bible does mention the father, son and Holy Spirit and we know that God called Jesus His beloved son according to the Scriptures; that the Council of Nicaea or Constantine had nothing to do with.

We know Allah didn't understand the three in question, because he thought the Holy Spirit was Gabriel; he didn't know the Holy Spirit was the third person of the trinity; he thought Christians considered Allah the third. That is what intelligent people could infer by what Allah said. It is a mega discrepancy for Islam. The burden of proof is on you. There is no way you could prove he didn't mean a misconception regarding the three who are one God.

The Bible or Christians never claimed God has partners or associations; Muslims made that claim about Christians, and still make that claim, but they do so hypocritically when you listen to the second part of their Shahada.

So not only Allah misconceived the Christian trinity; he also imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts such as heaven and hell. Moreover, the virgin birth of Jesus could only be found in the Bible. Again, there is no other place that information could be found before Muhammad was born. Finally, Islam borrowed the concept of monotheism from the Jews and the Christians. Islam is a religion that brings nothing new and has nothing to offer Christians who know the Lord or any person for that matter.

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Post #16

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Burninglight
First of all, Christians do not worship Mary as god never have and never will. Secondly, I didn't say Allah said explicitly that Mary was part of the trinity, I said one can infer that is what Allah meant. He implies it and it is the only inference that could be made. 

Allah was not all knowing about who the trinity was. He though it was son, mother and father. Only Muslims refuse to see this inference, but anyone who can see objectively knows that is what was meant. 

Now Catholics have prayed to Mary and other saints, but they didn't worship her as god, but I can understand why Allah had misconceptions. As far as the term trinity, it was never mentioned in the Bible. The word was coined at the council of Nicaea with Constantine, but the Bible does mention the father, son and Holy Spirit and we know that God called Jesus His beloved son according to the Scriptures; that the Council of Nicaea or Constantine had nothing to do with. 

We know Allah didn't understand the three in question, because he thought the Holy Spirit was Gabriel; he didn't know the Holy Spirit was the third person of the trinity; he thought Christians considered Allah the third. That is what intelligent people could infer by what Allah said. It is a mega discrepancy for Islam. The burden of proof is on you. There is no way you could prove he didn't mean a misconception regarding the three who are one God. 

The Bible or Christians never claimed God has partners or associations; Muslims made that claim about Christians, and still make that claim, but they do so hypocritically when you listen to the second part of their Shahada. 

So not only Allah misconceived the Christian trinity; he also imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts such as heaven and hell. Moreover, the virgin birth of Jesus could only be found in the Bible. Again, there is no other place that information could be found before Muhammad was born. Finally, Islam borrowed the concept of monotheism from the Jews and the Christians. Islam is a religion that brings nothing new and has nothing to offer Christians who know the Lord or any person for that matter. 

You are loved
We cannot deny that Christians worship Mary, this is apparent in the countless practices carried out by Christians when they raise Mary to the level of God. You have clearly stated that the Quran got the trinity concept wrong, the Quran is a revelation by God hence you are saying that God implies that Mary is part of the trinity. Furthermore we as Muslims cannot interpret the Quran based on un-evidenced unauthentic reasoning so what gives the Christian the right to do so in any any sense when he does not understand the teachings of Islam in the least??? 

It is very clear that Christians associate partners with God, this is when Christians give humans the attributes of God, meaning that they have made a person an idol hence their god, this is what we can see with Christians in regards to Mary. They worship her instead of worshipping God All-Mighty. (praying to her instead of God). For example Christians who believe in Mary's Divine Motherhood that she was the mother of God. The Quran shows the fallacy in such a belief, how can there be a trinity, and Mary having a divine motherhood due to giving birth to a supposedly divine Jesus, when Mary was a normal lady like every other lady, eating food and so on. In case Christians don't get it, Jesus' divinity and the trinity itself is what makes Mary so special and given a divine status,  yet the Quran is arguing how such a thing is possible in the first place, Mary was like other humans, she ate food and so on, so a lady like herself will never give birth to God in the first place, the very same God whom Christians claim to be a part of the trinity.

The verse in the Quran also goes on to show the complete humanity of Jesus (peace be upon him) which refutes the trinity, by emphasizing the humanity of Mary, the Quran is trying to emphasize the humanity of Jesus as well, his mother was a normal human being like everyone else, hence why would she give birth to the All-Mighty God and part of what is called the trinity? It doesn't add up at all, and this is precisely what the Quran is getting at, Mary was a normal lady, hence she doesn't give birth to God or anything to do with divinity!

So the verse is not including Mary in the trinity, rather it is attacking the very core and basis of the trinity by pointing out that it is a complete fallacy for a normal lady who eats, to give birth to God himself, the very same God who supposedly makes up a trinity.

So in conclusion Mary is never mentioned in the trinity, when the Quran mentions the worship of Jesus (peace be upon him) and Mary, that same verse says nothing about a trinity. The Quran does mention the trinity in two other places, and Mary is never included within the trinity itself, hence the Quran is not wrong, it is the Christian who is wrong, and it is the Christian who has mis-understood the Quran.

More to the point Allah is All-Wise and All-Knowing of what the Christians have done in regards to their changing of the religion and therefore is full aware what the trinity consists, any person who has a thorough understanding of the Quran would realize that there is no where in the Quran that mentions the trinity being the son, mother and father, so I ask you how you can  you come to such a conclusion???

The bible does not give us a doctrine of a trinity, as this is not what Jesus (peace be upon him) taught mankind, rather the historical records show that modern Christian trinitarian beliefs were not formulated until about 300 years after the death of Jesus (peace be upon him) but in pagan religions. Trinitarian beliefs date back to ancient Babylon, thousands of years before Jesus (peace be upon him). The three in one trinity is not a Christian biblical doctrine, yet there are those who insist that it is the cornerstone of Christianity.

Nope Burninglight, the burden of proof again is upon you to prove that the Quran says what you claim. The Quran dispels any Pagan Christian (or Catholic) myth that Jesus' mother Mary (may Allah be pleased with Her) was a sort of goddess like person who should be prayed too.The Quran never limited the trinity to only Jesus, Mary and God All-Mighty, rather, Allah All-Mighty denounced any and ALL types of trinity and/or plurality worship, which even includes the "Hindu trinity" and either Mary or Jesus or both. So therefore you need to show me something anything where the Quran or any Islamic teachings explicitly say what you believe it says, otherwise nothing you say can be taken seriously mere speculations and wishful thinking won't cut it, :-)

Christians associate partners with God by giving the attributes of God to humans, in fact the Qur'an itself condemns all sorts of shirk, i.e., associating partners with God. It would not matter if the trinity was composed of any combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or any body else. It would still be considered as associating partners with God. The Quranic verse, 4:171, For Allah is One God, is enough to refute any such bizarre argument. It is equally clear even in the Old Testament and The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners. As for the Shahada we proclaim that none is worthy of worship except God Alone. There is no associating partners onto God here!!!

So not only have you failed to understand Islam Burninglight but you have attempted to add things that are not apparent in any Islamic teachings or material, the problem isn't that Islam copied concepts from Christianity, rather it's you failing to accept the evidence at hand. Islam is the final religion chosen for all of mankind by God, rather then a group of people as with the Gospel and Torah, it is a confirmation of the past and present and upholds Islamic Monotheism as was the message of all the Prophets and Messengers. It speaks of the truth and is a whole way of life unlike current day Christianity. Islam is the ultimate success, any wise, intelligent person would recognize and submit to the will of the Lord of the Worlds and what has been made permissible and acceptable to him, something that is recognized by even Jews and Christians that attempt to hide the truth written in their own scriptures.

May God All-Mighty guide you to the truth, Amin.

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Post #17

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HaLi8993 wrote:
We cannot deny that Christians worship Mary, this is apparent in the countless practices carried out by Christians when they raise Mary to the level of God. You have clearly stated that the Quran got the trinity concept wrong, the Quran is a revelation by God hence you are saying that God implies that Mary is part of the trinity. Furthermore we as Muslims cannot interpret the Quran based on un-evidenced unauthentic reasoning so what gives the Christian the right to do so in any any sense when he does not understand the teachings of Islam in the least??? 
Christians do not worship Mary (and I think you are painting with a too broad a brush, it would be Catholics in specifically) , any more than Muslims worship Mohammad. Your misrepresentation of Christianity is large, and I am not a Christian.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #18

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Goat
Christians do not worship Mary (and I think you are painting with a too broad a brush, it would be Catholics in specifically) , any more than Muslims worship Mohammad. Your misrepresentation of Christianity is large, and I am not a Christian.
Really Goat???, so Catholics do not consider themselves Christian??. Yes I am in complete agreement with you that mainly majority Catholics might be worshipping Mary while other "Christians" claim they do not. But this is exactly what we are discussing, how the Quran is correct in saying that a group of people regardless of what they call themselves have taken Mary as a God besides God, namely associating partners onto Him. In saying this there may even be "Christians" that do not worship Mary just as there are deviant sects in Islam that associate partners with God, but you are completly mistaken if you believe that Islam teaches the worship of Muhammad (peace be upon him) associating partners with Him, this would be contradictory to the entire message Muhammad (peace be upon him) came with specifically when he united the hearts and minds of people in the worship of One God, the very same message Jesus (peace be upom him) was sent for. Any person that associates partners with God has gone astray and is not following the commands of God especially the core Monothesic belief in its essence and purity.

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Post #19

Post by Burninglight »

HaLi8993 wrote: @ Goat
Christians do not worship Mary (and I think you are painting with a too broad a brush, it would be Catholics in specifically) , any more than Muslims worship Mohammad. Your misrepresentation of Christianity is large, and I am not a Christian.
Really Goat???, so Catholics do not consider themselves Christian??. Yes I am in complete agreement with you that mainly majority Catholics might be worshipping Mary while other "Christians" claim they do not. But this is exactly what we are discussing, how the Quran is correct in saying that a group of people regardless of what they call themselves have taken Mary as a God besides God, namely associating partners onto Him. In saying this there may even be "Christians" that do not worship Mary just as there are deviant sects in Islam that associate partners with God, but you are completly mistaken if you believe that Islam teaches the worship of Muhammad (peace be upon him) associating partners with Him, this would be contradictory to the entire message Muhammad (peace be upon him) came with specifically when he united the hearts and minds of people in the worship of One God, the very same message Jesus (peace be upom him) was sent for. Any person that associates partners with God has gone astray and is not following the commands of God especially the core Monothesic belief in its essence and purity.
Goat is right, and he didn't say Catholics don't consider themselves Christians. Besides, many Muslims, if not all, idolize Muhammad, and that is a form of worship even though it goes contrary to his message. Moreover, they associate partners to Allah. It is in the second part of the shahada. They have to say; "And his messenger." No matter how you twist or turn it, that is an association, lol. Islam/Muhammad got the idea of monotheism from the Jews and the Christians; so, it or he brings nothing new only deception as Allah admits he is "The Best of Deceivers"

No Christians (Not even Catholics) ever took Mary to be a god like Allah questions Jesus saying: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me..." Just from that question alone we can tell that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of Christianity and the Bible. Allah shows he is not all knowing by asking Jesus that question, and it shows Allah's misconception of the trinity if you could be objective. He thought the trinity consisted of the son, mother and Allah. He didn't know that Christians believe the Holy Spirit is God; it is the only logically inference that can be made; otherwise, he would have said say not four instead of three. Muslims are obtuse about this.

In fact, Islam has imperfectly borrowed from Christianity. The Holy Spirit wasn't Gabriel; He was and is God, and they borrowed the virgin birth of Jesus from the NT Bible, but they don't know the significance of why Jesus was born of a virgin. The Bible explains why but they don't accept the Biblical explanation because they would rather adhere to Allah's, Muhammad's and their misconceptions. Islam is a political endeavor to take over the world, and it is a religion that is in strict reaction to Christianity and nothing more.


Goat is not a believer of Jesus Christ, and he can see more than Muslims about Christianity.

HaLi8993
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Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 2:05 am

Post #20

Post by HaLi8993 »

@ Burninglight
Goat is right, and he didn't say Catholics don't consider themselves Christians. Besides, many Muslims, if not all, idolize Muhammad, and that is a form of worship even though it goes contrary to his message. Moreover, they associate partners to Allah. It is in the second part of the shahada. They have to say; "And his messenger." No matter how you twist or turn it, that is an association, lol. Islam/Muhammad got the idea of monotheism from the Jews and the Christians; so, it or he brings nothing new only deception as Allah admits he is "The Best of Deceivers" 

No Christians (Not even Catholics) ever took Mary to be a god like Allah questions Jesus saying: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me..." Just from that question alone we can tell that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of Christianity and the Bible. Allah shows he is not all knowing by asking Jesus that question, and it shows Allah's misconception of the trinity if you could be objective. He thought the trinity consisted of the son, mother and Allah. He didn't know that Christians believe the Holy Spirit is God; it is the only logically inference that can be made; otherwise, he would have said say not four instead of three. Muslims are obtuse about this. 

In fact, Islam has imperfectly borrowed from Christianity. The Holy Spirit wasn't Gabriel; He was and is God, and they borrowed the virgin birth of Jesus from the NT Bible, but they don't know the significance of why Jesus was born of a virgin. The Bible explains why but they don't accept the Biblical explanation because they would rather adhere to Allah's, Muhammad's and their misconceptions. Islam is a political endeavor to take over the world, and it is a religion that is in strict reaction to Christianity and nothing more. 


Goat is not a believer of Jesus Christ, and he can see more than Muslims about Christianity.
Firstly, Burninglight I didnt say that Goat did, what he said was: "Christians do not worship Mary", however Catholics consider themselves Christians, furthermore Goat admitted they worship Mary did he not ???, hence Christians do worship Mary. You are mistaken in saying that many Muslims idolize Muhammad (peace be upon him), although there are pockets of people that have been mislead and have invented innovation into the pure religion of Islam, Islam does not accept any form of association or idolization of Muhammad (peace be upon him) in any way, shape or form. You will not be able to find any of the teachings of Islam that teach associating partners with Allah rather what you will find is pure Islamic Monotheism.

Secondly, we are dealing with associating partners with God in worship. Burninglight im starting to think you dont seem to understand this concept. You seem to think that the Shahada is associating partners with God without looking at its meaning, just because I put them together in the same sentence does not mean that they are equal in authority. However with Mary those Christians that worship her are raising her to the level of God in worship.

Thirdly, again your failer to understand the Quran has proven itself, there are indeed Cristians that do worship Mary as God, denying such a thing would represent direct ignorance and rejection of the truth. Many Church Fathers and Councils viewed Mary as divine, many  of which having this view before the advent of Islam and its revealation. Hence the Quran is merely exposing this wrong blasphemous belief of the worship of Mary, making her into a divine being something she was not! so how is the Quran wrong?? 

One example as mentioned previously is the official rosary of the Catholic Church, sorry, but this is no more than a pagan prayer to other than Allah. Another example is the images portrayed in churches of Mary images being disallowed in Christianity. Let us not forget that ALL of mankind since the beginning of time will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement. Therefore it is only logical to answer the dilemma faced, not only by the Christians in our present era but by all Christians throughout the history of Christianity. Hence God is All-Knowing and you are not. The Quran contains no errors, the verse is telling Christians to not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity, therefore adding your own underdtanding as to what the three consists of and imposing your own untrue beliefs upon Muslims isnt going to work, unless you can show me a verse that states that Allah said the trinity is son, mother and Allah you have nothing.

Furthermore the holy spirit is Angel Gabriel, I would like you as a Christian to prove that in Christianity the holy spirit is God, there are countless contradictions as to this point. Christians time and again fall onto this point to prove the Quran wrong, as they are full aware that if the holy spirit is not God as they claim their entire belief of the trinity will crumble hence the reason for such accusations. Show me any evidence that the holy spirit is God, you will not be able too. It is only fair to say that the Quran will contain similar if not the same stories of the past, namely the virgin birh of Jesus (peace be upon him) this is due to the fact that the Quran is the last of the revelations containing in it and confirming the truth and falsehood of the past and present. The Quran makes it crystal clear as to the reason for Jesus' virgin birth, there are no misconceptions about the matter, we adhere to the true religion of God and do not go to extremes regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) and inventing things about him that we have no evidence for. Islam is a whole way of life, the best way of life for all of mankind, it is a religion of peace and justice, it enjoins good and forbids evil in all aspects of life and does not compremise its religion in the face of  any critic. 

Burninglight pls watch:



http://www.google.com.au/search?q=rever ... 80&bih=218

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